Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jesse Pollard]

"Jim Roland" <jroland@roland.net>:
> From: "Jesse Pollard" <jesse@cats-chateau.net>
> To: <kmw@rowsw.com>; "Kurt Maxwell Weber" <kmw@rowsw.com>; "J Sloan"
> <jjs@mirai.cx>
> Cc: <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!
> 
> 
> [snip]
> > >In that case, I have the following options:
> > >1) Start my own ISP
> >
> > Only if the upstream provider doesn't require you to use windows.
> >
> > >2) Use Windows XP
> > >3) Not use Windows XP and not be able to use my current ISP
> > >4) Go to a different ISP
> >
> > You may not be able to find another. It took me a year. I gave up. I was
> > fortunate that Verio doesn't care what you have... though if you use
> > the dialup or basic dsl, MS is it, or no real support.
> >
> > >I'll just have to decide which I value more.  As long as I won't be
> killed
> > >for using a different OS, I still have a choice.
> >
> > No, but you might be forced out of a job.
> 
> In one of the large metro areas in which I live, there are a LOT of ISPs
> that do not require you to use Windows, but will not support you beyond the
> IP layer if you don't.  Use linux, install PPP with MS-CHAPv2 (with or
> without MPPE) for your dialup connection and it works just fine on a
> Winblows-only ISP.  DSL or Cable, just acquire your actual IP settings
> program a Linksys router/hub box and be done with it.

Better re-read the fine print on the "fair-use" statement. BOTH DSL and
Cable, or dialup (New Orleans at least) will disconnect you if you run ANY
unattended operation (if they determine it IS unattended). No daemon services.
No routing/NAT (unless they do it). No remote login. No mail. DHCP reconfig
between 4 and 8 hours (or whenever they choose to).

They will let you plug in, but will not provide any support (even TCP/IP is
not assured).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesse I Pollard, II
Email: pollard@navo.hpc.mil

Any opinions expressed are solely my own.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[William T Wilson]

On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Jesse Pollard wrote:

> Better re-read the fine print on the "fair-use" statement. BOTH DSL
> and Cable, or dialup (New Orleans at least) will disconnect you if you
> run ANY unattended operation (if they determine it IS unattended). No

This would take a lot of watching on their part.

My cable company occasionally portscans me, so I blackholed the
portscanning machine.  Even before I had done that, though, they never
complained about my remote logins.  They only complain if you use
excessive bandwidth or if you do anything commercial.

The DSL provider here, when it was still US West, explicitly stated to me
(over the phone) that they absolutely did not care what I did with it as
long as it was not illegal.  However they would still not give you a
static IP address unless you paid them extra money. :}

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[H. Peter Anvin]

Followup to:  <Pine.LNX.4.21.0107021307160.3665-100000@benatar.snurgle.org>
By author:    William T Wilson <fluffy@snurgle.org>
In newsgroup: linux.dev.kernel
>
> On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Jesse Pollard wrote:
> 
> > Better re-read the fine print on the "fair-use" statement. BOTH DSL
> > and Cable, or dialup (New Orleans at least) will disconnect you if you
> > run ANY unattended operation (if they determine it IS unattended). No
> 
> This would take a lot of watching on their part.
> 
> My cable company occasionally portscans me, so I blackholed the
> portscanning machine.  Even before I had done that, though, they never
> complained about my remote logins.  They only complain if you use
> excessive bandwidth or if you do anything commercial.
> 
> The DSL provider here, when it was still US West, explicitly stated to me
> (over the phone) that they absolutely did not care what I did with it as
> long as it was not illegal.  However they would still not give you a
> static IP address unless you paid them extra money. :}
> 

When I got Pac*Smell DSL, the installer guy (who seemed to be a
relatively clueful type) said "and [the contract] says you're not
allowed to run a server... but who'd know?"

	-hpa

-- 
<hpa@transmeta.com> at work, <hpa@zytor.com> in private!
"Unix gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot."
http://www.zytor.com/~hpa/puzzle.txt

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Hua Zhong]

-> From "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com> :
> When I got Pac*Smell DSL, the installer guy (who seemed to be a
> relatively clueful type) said "and [the contract] says you're not
> allowed to run a server... but who'd know?"

..and please define "server".  Does it mean that you can not run any programs 
listening on a port and accepting incoming connections or datagrams? :-)

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

I confronted @Home's tech support, and they're programmed to say "server"
but even tier-2 had no idea what it actually meant that I could and could
not do.  Go figure.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hua Zhong" <huaz@cs.columbia.edu>
To: "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>
Cc: <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!


> -> From "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com> :
> > When I got Pac*Smell DSL, the installer guy (who seemed to be a
> > relatively clueful type) said "and [the contract] says you're not
> > allowed to run a server... but who'd know?"
>
> ..and please define "server".  Does it mean that you can not run any
programs
> listening on a port and accepting incoming connections or datagrams? :-)
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

@Home tells you the same thing.  Although they portscanned me frequently,
they were checking for specific servers and actually deny traffic on ports
135-139 (Winblows traffic).  Unless they change over to non-routables (which
would kill things like ICQ, etc) they will not be able to stop me from using
ssh or others for remote access.  @Home and other providers get around the
"server" issue by capping your maximum outbound bandwidth.  This is
something I have had to live with when upload FTP files to some off-site
game servers I own.



----- Original Message -----
From: "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>
To: <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!


> Followup to:
<Pine.LNX.4.21.0107021307160.3665-100000@benatar.snurgle.org>
> By author:    William T Wilson <fluffy@snurgle.org>
> In newsgroup: linux.dev.kernel
> >
> > On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Jesse Pollard wrote:
> >
> > > Better re-read the fine print on the "fair-use" statement. BOTH DSL
> > > and Cable, or dialup (New Orleans at least) will disconnect you if you
> > > run ANY unattended operation (if they determine it IS unattended). No
> >
> > This would take a lot of watching on their part.
> >
> > My cable company occasionally portscans me, so I blackholed the
> > portscanning machine.  Even before I had done that, though, they never
> > complained about my remote logins.  They only complain if you use
> > excessive bandwidth or if you do anything commercial.
> >
> > The DSL provider here, when it was still US West, explicitly stated to
me
> > (over the phone) that they absolutely did not care what I did with it as
> > long as it was not illegal.  However they would still not give you a
> > static IP address unless you paid them extra money. :}
> >
>
> When I got Pac*Smell DSL, the installer guy (who seemed to be a
> relatively clueful type) said "and [the contract] says you're not
> allowed to run a server... but who'd know?"
>
> -hpa
>
> --
> <hpa@transmeta.com> at work, <hpa@zytor.com> in private!
> "Unix gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot."
> http://www.zytor.com/~hpa/puzzle.txt
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Pollard" <pollard@tomcat.admin.navo.hpc.mil>
To: <jroland@roland.net>; <jesse@cats-chateau.net>; <kmw@rowsw.com>; "J
Sloan" <jjs@mirai.cx>
Cc: <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!


> "Jim Roland" <jroland@roland.net>:
> > From: "Jesse Pollard" <jesse@cats-chateau.net>
> > To: <kmw@rowsw.com>; "Kurt Maxwell Weber" <kmw@rowsw.com>; "J Sloan"
> > <jjs@mirai.cx>
> > Cc: <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 3:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!
> >
> >
> > [snip]
> > > >In that case, I have the following options:
> > > >1) Start my own ISP
> > >
> > > Only if the upstream provider doesn't require you to use windows.
> > >
> > > >2) Use Windows XP
> > > >3) Not use Windows XP and not be able to use my current ISP
> > > >4) Go to a different ISP
> > >
> > > You may not be able to find another. It took me a year. I gave up. I
was
> > > fortunate that Verio doesn't care what you have... though if you use
> > > the dialup or basic dsl, MS is it, or no real support.
> > >
> > > >I'll just have to decide which I value more.  As long as I won't be
> > killed
> > > >for using a different OS, I still have a choice.
> > >
> > > No, but you might be forced out of a job.
> >
> > In one of the large metro areas in which I live, there are a LOT of ISPs
> > that do not require you to use Windows, but will not support you beyond
the
> > IP layer if you don't.  Use linux, install PPP with MS-CHAPv2 (with or
> > without MPPE) for your dialup connection and it works just fine on a
> > Winblows-only ISP.  DSL or Cable, just acquire your actual IP settings
> > program a Linksys router/hub box and be done with it.
>
> Better re-read the fine print on the "fair-use" statement. BOTH DSL and
> Cable, or dialup (New Orleans at least) will disconnect you if you run ANY
> unattended operation (if they determine it IS unattended). No daemon
services.
> No routing/NAT (unless they do it). No remote login. No mail. DHCP
reconfig
> between 4 and 8 hours (or whenever they choose to).
>
> They will let you plug in, but will not provide any support (even TCP/IP
is
> not assured).
>

TCP/IP is assured, in the case of my @Home service, they provide me with the
transport layer and settings (IP, subnet, etc) but no software support.
That is a provider choice, and I have no problem with it.  Microsoft does
not (and will never) control the transport layer.  Doing so will kill Cisco
routers, etc.  Being an ISP myself, there is absolutely nothing Microsoft
can say or do to force me to support only them.  If XP clients don't work
with my service, give someone a little while and there will be a plug-in or
patch that allows XP to run with standard service.  As I said, they can do
nothing for force me to move over to only Microsoft support.  I am Linux,
and I'm only a small-guy.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Ted Unangst]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Ben Ford wrote:

> Name a single tech company anywhere in the world that doesn't have to
> deal with microsoftisms.

http://www.wasabisystems.com/

> Well, when you realize that Bill Gates (not MS, just Bill Gates
> personally) has enough money to give every person in the world $10 out
> of his pocket, then you see this argument in a different light.

that's called capitalism.

ted

--
"First, it was not a strip bar, it was an erotic club.  And second,
what can I say?  I'm a night owl."
      - M. Barry, Mayor of Washington, DC

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Michael Rothwell]

I re-subscribed for this? Blarg. When did the LKML turn into slashdot?


On 01 Jul 2001 17:33:38 -0700, Ted Unangst wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Ben Ford wrote:
> 
> > Name a single tech company anywhere in the world that doesn't have to
> > deal with microsoftisms.
> 
> http://www.wasabisystems.com/
> 
> > Well, when you realize that Bill Gates (not MS, just Bill Gates
> > personally) has enough money to give every person in the world $10 out
> > of his pocket, then you see this argument in a different light.
> 
> that's called capitalism.
> 
> ted
> 
> --
> "First, it was not a strip bar, it was an erotic club.  And second,
> what can I say?  I'm a night owl."
>       - M. Barry, Mayor of Washington, DC
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
--
Michael Rothwell
rothwell@holly-springs.nc.us

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Kurt Maxwell Weber]

On Sunday 01 July 2001 12:12, you wrote:
> > I'm going to take a break from lurking to point out that I am not
> > dissatisfied with Windows.  It has its uses, as do Linux (and NetBSD, and
> > Solaris, and the other operating systems I have installed at home). 
> > Frankly, I don't have a problem with Microsoft.  If I don't like their
> > product, I'm free to choose not to use it.
>
> So as a user you are free to not use M$ products.
> What if you are IT. Then you do not have a choice.
>

You can choose to work somewhere else, or choose to enter a different field.
-- 
Regards,
Kurt Weber
kmw@rowsw.com

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Hua Zhong]

-> From Kurt Maxwell Weber <kmw@rowsw.com> :
> 
> You can choose to work somewhere else, or choose to enter a different field.

There are a lot of people who don't know how to use Linux/Unix.  Windows is 
much easier for them and has more applications.  They practically have no 
other choice if they have to use a computer in their jobs (maybe they can 
Macintosh).

One of my dreams is someday Linux can really be a great desktop operating 
system, but you know that's not yet real now.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Adam Schrotenboer]

Hua Zhong wrote:

>-> From Kurt Maxwell Weber <kmw@rowsw.com> :
>
>>You can choose to work somewhere else, or choose to enter a different field.
>>
>
>There are a lot of people who don't know how to use Linux/Unix.  Windows is 
>much easier for them and has more applications.  They practically have no 
>other choice if they have to use a computer in their jobs (maybe they can 
>Macintosh).
>
>One of my dreams is someday Linux can really be a great desktop operating 
>system, but you know that's not yet real now.
>
Yes, and I am not arguing that all my customers should go Linux. But the 
way that MS goes marketing their crappy products, bundling w/ Windblows 
is atrocious. I have gotten very sick and tired of every one thinking 
that because Word is MS product, it must be perfect, or if not perfect, 
and least the best possible. I am also sick of being expected to use MS 
products, or lose out on school assignments and business b/c M$ was an 
asshole and doesn't support Wordperfect, Star Office, etc (yes, I know 
that star office can read word)

Because of their predatory practices I am stuck w/ their mediocre 
products.  I must support their products; I am expected to get a MCSE so 
I can get a job (at the moment I work for my father, so I don't need one).

If I want to set up a Linux server (my father and I are working on 
making this a solution for a few of our larger customers) I still have 
to deal with interoperatbility with a system that breaks all the rules 
(standards) makes their own, etc.

Yes, I do do the work, b/c it makes me money (not enough, b/c I can't 
get enuff hours, but the hourly pay is terrific), doesn't mean that I 
have a choice of whom I support. Yes, I could just drop the field. But 
that would mean giving up, and that doesn't sound like a choice either. 
So I work within the system to change it. Meanwhile, if this was 
something else, I could probably sue for emotional damage or something 
else (tongue in cheek). If I was imprisoned wrongly, I could get 
compensation right(don't ansewer this, it's rhetorical).

But don't just tell me to butt out, b/c I can't change it. I refuse to 
believe that.

>

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Tracy R Reed]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 500 bytes --]

On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 02:11:47PM -0400, Hua Zhong wrote:
> There are a lot of people who don't know how to use Linux/Unix.  Windows is 
> much easier for them and has more applications.  They practically have no 
> other choice if they have to use a computer in their jobs (maybe they can 
> Macintosh).

I don't agree with this.

http://www.ultraviolet.org/treed/writings/display.php3?document=easy

-- 
Tracy Reed      http://www.ultraviolet.org
Linux: Because freedom is priceless.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 240 bytes --]

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Dan Hollis]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
> You can choose to work somewhere else, or choose to enter a different field.

As demonstrated many times over the past several years, it is becoming
increasingly difficult to buy a PC without bundled m$-ware. Even if you
dont use m$-ware you are still forced to pay for it.

-Dan

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Adam Schrotenboer]

Kurt Maxwell Weber <kmw@rowsw.com>:

 > I'm going to take a break from lurking to point out that I am not
 > dissatisfied with Windows.  It has its uses, as do Linux (and NetBSD, and
 > Solaris, and the other operating systems I have installed at home).  
Frankly,
 > I don't have a problem with Microsoft.  If I don't like their 
product, I'm
 > free to choose not to use it.

So as a user you are free to not use M$ products.
What if you are IT. Then you do not have a choice.

I have been working as a Computer Tech for approx 5 years.
When I first started (before that period actually, I speak of my Jr high 
years)
I liked MS, if only b/c it was better than the other Intel solutions
(This is approx 1993 or 1994). When OS/2 came out, I thought it was
a joke (My father had it on his computer, I couldn't even get the calculator
to run).

When Win95 came out, I finally got to hate M$. Then I discovered Linux
and now I have a great dislike for M$ and their products.

I appreciate that as a user you may have a choice. As a tech or MIS/IT, 
I don't have
a choice. As such I believe that I have been "damaged" by M$.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Paul Mundt]

On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 01:35:24PM -0400, Adam Schrotenboer wrote:
> So as a user you are free to not use M$ products.
> What if you are IT. Then you do not have a choice.
> 
You always have a choice, work elsewhere. If you're in a position where you're
working with MS products, you were the one who made the decision to do so.
MS is not at fault, claiming so is childish.

> When Win95 came out, I finally got to hate M$. Then I discovered Linux
> and now I have a great dislike for M$ and their products.
> 
This makes absolutely no sense. You didn't have a problem with MS originally,
but as soon as Win95 came out you instantly hated them? A few issues with an
OS are hardly valid grounds for "hating" a company.

Also, I don't see how once you discovered Linux your hatred for MS grew. This
also makes very little sense. If you were sitting there using MS products of
your own accord, discovered a new system, and then migrated to the other
system, that's hardly a reason to demand the head of Gates because you somehow
feel you are being "forced" (of your own accord) to use their products.

Get real, look at all the moronic things that various linux distributions do.
Is this a reason to hate linux and demand the head of Linus as compensation
for your troubles?

This kind of attitude, and you wonder why MS attacks linux.

> I appreciate that as a user you may have a choice. As a tech or MIS/IT, 
> I don't have a choice. As such I believe that I have been "damaged" by M$.
> 
Oh please, next you'll be blaming world hunger on MS because third world
countries can't afford licenses of win2k.

Regards,

-- 
Paul Mundt <lethal@chaoticdreams.org>

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Adam Schrotenboer]

Paul Mundt wrote:

>On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 01:35:24PM -0400, Adam Schrotenboer wrote:
>
>>So as a user you are free to not use M$ products.
>>What if you are IT. Then you do not have a choice.
>>
>You always have a choice, work elsewhere. If you're in a position where you're
>working with MS products, you were the one who made the decision to do so.
>MS is not at fault, claiming so is childish.
>
>>When Win95 came out, I finally got to hate M$. Then I discovered Linux
>>and now I have a great dislike for M$ and their products.
>>
>This makes absolutely no sense. You didn't have a problem with MS originally,
>but as soon as Win95 came out you instantly hated them? A few issues with an
>OS are hardly valid grounds for "hating" a company.
>
A few issues, yeah right. I have had many problems. Much of my hatred 
has to do with their bundling.

>
>Also, I don't see how once you discovered Linux your hatred for MS grew. This
>also makes very little sense. If you were sitting there using MS products of
>your own accord, discovered a new system, and then migrated to the other
>system, that's hardly a reason to demand the head of Gates because you somehow
>feel you are being "forced" (of your own accord) to use their products.
>
It didn't grow b/c of that. Never assume.

>
>Get real, look at all the moronic things that various linux distributions do.
>Is this a reason to hate linux and demand the head of Linus as compensation
>for your troubles?
>
>This kind of attitude, and you wonder why MS attacks linux.
>
Why would that make MS afraid of Linux. It should simply make them 
ignore them (b/c presumably this would make Linux harmless)

>
>
>>I appreciate that as a user you may have a choice. As a tech or MIS/IT, 
>>I don't have a choice. As such I believe that I have been "damaged" by M$.
>>
>Oh please, next you'll be blaming world hunger on MS because third world
>countries can't afford licenses of win2k.
>
There's always theft too, but that's beside the point. Actually, maybe 
M$ causes world hunger because its tools for management are crap, or 
maybe BillGates is a Habbalite. (xref In Nomine).

>
>Regards,
>

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

[snip]
> >Get real, look at all the moronic things that various linux distributions
do.
> >Is this a reason to hate linux and demand the head of Linus as
compensation
> >for your troubles?
> >
> >This kind of attitude, and you wonder why MS attacks linux.
> >
> Why would that make MS afraid of Linux. It should simply make them
> ignore them (b/c presumably this would make Linux harmless)
>

Actually if you would read the tech-news articles closely, you will see they
are attacking Open Source including the GPL license, not specifically Linux.
Linux is a threat by default because it's very heavy in GPL.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Adam Schrotenboer]

Jim Roland wrote:

>[snip]
>
>>>Get real, look at all the moronic things that various linux distributions
>>>
>do.
>
>>>Is this a reason to hate linux and demand the head of Linus as
>>>
>compensation
>
>>>for your troubles?
>>>
>>>This kind of attitude, and you wonder why MS attacks linux.
>>>
>>Why would that make MS afraid of Linux. It should simply make them
>>ignore them (b/c presumably this would make Linux harmless)
>>
>
>Actually if you would read the tech-news articles closely, you will see they
>are attacking Open Source including the GPL license, not specifically Linux.
>Linux is a threat by default because it's very heavy in GPL.
>
Are you responding to me here, or to the previous statement?

I admit that I may have made a mistake in how I said some things, and 
may have confused some people about how I feel about M$.

M$ is not all bad. Some of their productsa re good. Without M$s efforts 
in the past Linux couldn't be as successful as it is, b/c M$ made the 
IBM clones very cheap, by licensing their products they made PCs into a 
huge market.
(Yes, it could be argued that somebody else could have taken their 
place, their niche. _PLEASE_, try to understand my general points, 
instead of nitpicking inconsequential points.)

I have a problem with M$ getting into the application business, and with 
their insistence on making mediocre software and then bundling it w/ 
Windows. I wish they would focus on their operating system and make it 
good, make it right.

Now it is also arguable that perhaps their is little money in pure 
kernel/OS. And they can make more money w/ apps. But other companies 
have to sell their products by the merits. M$ just sells their name. 
Good for business. bad for customers. Sometimes I think that M$ could 
sell us programs made by monkeys and still make money, as long as the 
programs work w/ Windows (presumably the OS couldn't be by monkeys, 
there has to be something of quality to sell).

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Schrotenboer" <ajschrotenboer@lycosmail.com>
To: "Jim Roland" <jroland@roland.net>
Cc: "Paul Mundt" <lethal@ChaoticDreams.ORG>; "LKML"
<linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!


> Jim Roland wrote:
>
[snip]
> Good for business. bad for customers. Sometimes I think that M$ could
> sell us programs made by monkeys and still make money, as long as the
> programs work w/ Windows (presumably the OS couldn't be by monkeys,
> there has to be something of quality to sell).

I thought that's who wrote their software now (monkeys).  :-)

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Mike Harrold]

Paul Mundt wrote:
> 
> Oh please, next you'll be blaming world hunger on MS because third world
> countries can't afford licenses of win2k.

Absolutely. If their governments didn't have to shell out such a large
amount of money on M$ licenses, they'd have more money to feed their
people with...

;-)

Regards,

/Mike

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Tony Hoyle]

Paul Mundt wrote:

>
> You always have a choice, work elsewhere. If you're in a position where you're
> working with MS products, you were the one who made the decision to do so.
> MS is not at fault, claiming so is childish.

Nobody chooses to work with MS, they merely take the job that's offered.

I didn't choose to use MS, I merely chose to be able to pay the rent. 
The choice is basically use MS or don't work in the computer industry.

Hell, I'd even take a pay cut if someone had a Linux job on offer. 
Never seen one... never likely to either in the near future.  MS 
completely owns the business world (and it's not like I've not looked 
either, I'd give anything to get out of the job I'm in now but there's 
very few people hiring at the moment).

I don't think that MS are all wrong...  I even *like* Visual Studio (not 
the .NET one though, beta1 was unusable).  It's just the creeping vendor 
lockin that I hate.

Tony

-- 
"Two weeks before due date, the programmers work 22 hour days
  cobbling an application from... (apparently) one programmer
  bashing his face into the keyboard." -- Dilbert

tmh@nothing-on.tv 
http://www.nothing-on.tv

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Adam Schrotenboer]

Perhaps I should say again that my current IT job is working w/ small 
businesses and personal/home installations. In these cases, as well as 
with others, it is not so much the OS that I have a problem w/. It is 
the insistence of an all Macroshaft solution. Windows isn't totally bad. 
I would never say so. But being forced into M$ Office, MSIE, etc, and 
trying to support these arguably inferior products is a real PITA.

IE, Windows Web Sharing, MS Frontpage, etc are all bad knockoffs of 
other better products (IE isn't too bad, but I still don't like it, and 
I dislike Outlook{, Express} even more). Because they're M$ products, 
end [l]users believe that they must be more compatible or better than 
other solutions, (such as Netscape, Netscape Composer, WinRoute, etc).


M$ products are not all bad, but their marketing efforts and predatory 
efforts to lock people into these products is bad.

B/c M$ products are for the end luser, the lowest common denominator, I 
find them annoying when they try to fix my "mistakes", b/c they think 
they know better than I do. M$ is going toward Macintrash, point & 
drool, etc.



J Sloan wrote:

>Tony Hoyle wrote:
>
>>I didn't choose to use MS, I merely chose to be able to pay the rent.
>>The choice is basically use MS or don't work in the computer industry.
>>
>
>Fortunately it's not so from what I can see, although microsoft
>is frantically working to make it so.
>
>>Hell, I'd even take a pay cut if someone had a Linux job on offer.
>>Never seen one... never likely to either in the near future.
>>
>
>Have you been living under a rock for the last 2 years?
>
>Go to dice.com and search on Linux and you will numerous
>hits. My day job is to admin Linux, Solaris and HP-UX, and
>I also get a lot of side jobs doing Linux installs and remote
>Linux admin.
>
>I wish I had time to take on all the Linux work offered to me.
>
>cu
>
>jjs
>
>
>

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoyle" <tmh@magenta-netlogic.com>
To: "Paul Mundt" <lethal@ChaoticDreams.ORG>
Cc: "Adam Schrotenboer" <ajschrotenboer@lycosmail.com>; "LKML"
<linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!


> Paul Mundt wrote:
>
> >
> > You always have a choice, work elsewhere. If you're in a position where
you're
> > working with MS products, you were the one who made the decision to do
so.
> > MS is not at fault, claiming so is childish.
>
> Nobody chooses to work with MS, they merely take the job that's offered.
>
> I didn't choose to use MS, I merely chose to be able to pay the rent.
> The choice is basically use MS or don't work in the computer industry.
>
> Hell, I'd even take a pay cut if someone had a Linux job on offer.
> Never seen one... never likely to either in the near future.  MS
> completely owns the business world (and it's not like I've not looked
> either, I'd give anything to get out of the job I'm in now but there's
> very few people hiring at the moment).

Actually, I work a Linux Network Manager job, and I support Solaris, Linux,
and MS.  MS only because some of the office folk would require more of my
time if Linux is on their system (they can't deal with it).  I do have the
choice to put Linux on everyone's workstation and tell them that's what they
must have.  Don't tell me I don't have a choice.  I make a lot more money
because I support Linux and Unix.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Marius Nita]

On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 01:01:51PM -0700, Paul Mundt wrote:

> You always have a choice, work elsewhere. If you're in a position where you're
> working with MS products, you were the one who made the decision to do so.
> MS is not at fault, claiming so is childish.

_I_ think it's childish to claim the above. You _may_ have a choice, yes, but 
is that choice equal or fair? Microsoft has infected both the user area as 
much as the business/work area. If you want to purchase a PC because your 
computer just fried and you want to finish a paper or something, but you 
_want_ to use KOffice on Linux, and you don't care for Windows/Word 
whatsoever, what are the chances that if you run down to the computer store 
your "choices" will be Windows/Word, _period_! You'll then have to make sure 
that none of the hardware in it is Software driven-like winmodems-and that 
it's supported by Linux (or whatever OS you prefer). Almost all computers out 
there (from well-known compianies) ship with winmodems. How is that a choice? 
You have a choice to waste $70 on a harware modem, when someone who uses 
Windows doesn't?

Then, when it comes to work, what are you choices there? You choose not to 
Work for one of the Windows-based companies out there, and spend more time 
looking for a different job, but at the same time you choose not to pay your 
rent, feed your kids, etc. All I'm asking for is a _fair_ choice! Even if 
one's lucky enough to get their preffered non-MS job, they will have to work 
for some MS company while they scout around for it. So yes, we have a choice, 
but going the MS way is the muuuuch easier route. And this is all owed to the 
fact that MS is driving special campaigns instilling fear in the hearts of 
non-MS companies, offering "great deals on software packages", "solving your 
problems the right way", making you feel that if you don't go MS you're 
screwed, etc. You never see SUN, do that, do you?

So what I call a choice is a fare choice. And I don't see one here.

-- 
   Marius Nita
$_='hfflbwfsbhfzp
vs';s/(^.{4})(.{7
})(.+$)/$3 $2 $1/
;y/b-z/a-z/;print 

RE: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[David Schwartz]

> _I_ think it's childish to claim the above. You _may_ have a
> choice, yes, but
> is that choice equal or fair? Microsoft has infected both the
> user area as
> much as the business/work area. If you want to purchase a PC because your
> computer just fried and you want to finish a paper or something, but you
> _want_ to use KOffice on Linux, and you don't care for Windows/Word
> whatsoever, what are the chances that if you run down to the
> computer store
> your "choices" will be Windows/Word, _period_! You'll then have
> to make sure
> that none of the hardware in it is Software driven-like
> winmodems-and that
> it's supported by Linux (or whatever OS you prefer). Almost all
> computers out
> there (from well-known compianies) ship with winmodems. How is
> that a choice?
> You have a choice to waste $70 on a harware modem, when someone who uses
> Windows doesn't?
[snip]

	All of these 'lack of choice' arguments aren't really about lack of choice.
They're about advantages that outweight disadvantages. How can you choose
not to eat strawberry ice cream if it's so good and your local ice cream
store doesn't carry pralines n' cream?

	These arguments are fine to make, but all they really say is that you
prefer to use Microsoft software to the other alternatives because the other
alternatives are deficient in various fundamental ways.

	It's hard to understand the point of such arguments. Surely you shouldn't
be upset at someone for providing you the best option you have, should you?

	DS

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Ben Ford]

>
>
>It's hard to understand the point of such arguments. Surely you shouldn't
>be upset at someone for providing you the best option you have, should you?
>

The point is they aren't offering the best solution!  They are taking 
away all others!  That is why people dislike the company.

-b

-- 
:    __o
:   -\<,
:   0/ 0
-----------

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Ford" <ben@kalifornia.com>
To: "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com>
Cc: "Marius Nita" <marius@pdx.edu>; <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!


> >
> >
> >It's hard to understand the point of such arguments. Surely you shouldn't
> >be upset at someone for providing you the best option you have, should
you?
> >
>
> The point is they aren't offering the best solution!  They are taking
> away all others!  That is why people dislike the company.
>

I don't see them taking RedHat or Slackware away from me!

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

----- Original Message -----
From: "J Sloan" <jjs@mirai.cx>
To: "Jim Roland" <jroland@roland.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!


> Jim Roland wrote:
>
> > I don't see them taking RedHat or Slackware away from me!
>
> I see your point, but in a very real sense they
> are taking red hat or slackware from you -
>
> They have been pushing the industry frantically
> to make ms windows the standard and deprecate
> everything else - many people have discovered
> the frustration of "microsoft-only" web sites and
> software which exists for windows only.
>
> For those who find that they can no longer
> connect to their isp unless they are running
> ms windows, it's a rude awakening.
>
> Sure, you can keep using slackware, but
> you won't be able to connect to the internet
> if they have their way - won't that be lovely?

Sorry, I can't disagree more.  Nobody is stopping me from purchasing RedHat
or any other Linux Distro at Frys Electronics, online, or downloading a free
(legal) copy of it.  Nobody is stopping me from installing it on a PC, and
nobody stops me from connecting to the internet with it.  In fact, my
windows machine connects to the same internet connection (cablemodem) as my
linux systems, all behind a firewall appliance which actually touches the
interface.

Fact remains, TCP/IP and IPv6 are RFC STANDARDS not Microsoft standards.
Even so, there are ways around the MS-CHAP issues preventing connections to
the internet to allow Linux systems that speak STRAIGHT TCP/IP.  See also,
GTE.  GTE about 3 years ago had their network fixed so that Microsoft
systems could only connect, their modem pools literally hung up the line if
you were using anything non-Microsoft.  Currently, as long as you
authenticate with them properly, they don't care what you use.

How would you expain the Cisc's, Linksys's, etc?  They aren't Microsoft,
besides they pass IP over the wire, any IP-compatible machine will connect
to it.

Simply put, where I live (a top 10 metro area) there are plenty of ISPs that
accept dial-ins from any system that authenticates PAP or CHAP/MS-CHAP.


Like I've been saying before...stop blaming the "Dark Empire" and let's all
come up with solutions to beat them at their own game.

I'm done with this subject, it's aleady older that the science experiment
leftovers in my refrigerator.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Paul Mundt]

On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 03:32:51PM -0700, Marius Nita wrote:
> _I_ think it's childish to claim the above. You _may_ have a choice, yes, but 
> is that choice equal or fair? Microsoft has infected both the user area as 
> much as the business/work area. If you want to purchase a PC because your 
> computer just fried and you want to finish a paper or something, but you 
> _want_ to use KOffice on Linux, and you don't care for Windows/Word 
> whatsoever, what are the chances that if you run down to the computer store 
> your "choices" will be Windows/Word, _period_! You'll then have to make sure 
> that none of the hardware in it is Software driven-like winmodems-and that 
> it's supported by Linux (or whatever OS you prefer). Almost all computers out 
> there (from well-known compianies) ship with winmodems. How is that a choice? 
> You have a choice to waste $70 on a harware modem, when someone who uses 
> Windows doesn't?
> 
You have lots of choices. You're simply opting to take the quick and easy way
out. Your complaint about workstations is unjustified, if you insist on buying
pre-built workstations, there are many companies that you can buy linux
workstations from (strange, I thought VA did something like that for awhile
until they backed out of the hardware business, guess I was mistaken though,
as there aren't any options).

As for modems, this isn't anything but an excuse either. Broadband is very much
commonplace these days.. being force into dialup is less and less of a problem
these days. However, paying 70$ for a peice of trash hardware modem is no one's
fault but your own, and your inability to look around.

On top of that, your entire argument is broken. If you fry your machine, you
have a pretty good chance of being able to just repair it instead of having to
replace it with an entire new machine. Or if you can't, there's always the ever
so difficult scenario of removing the damned modem from the machine and moving
it over to a different one (provided you had a software modem in the alleged
new one).

> Then, when it comes to work, what are you choices there? You choose not to 
> Work for one of the Windows-based companies out there, and spend more time 
> looking for a different job, but at the same time you choose not to pay your 
> rent, feed your kids, etc. All I'm asking for is a _fair_ choice! Even if 
> one's lucky enough to get their preffered non-MS job, they will have to work 
> for some MS company while they scout around for it. So yes, we have a choice, 
> but going the MS way is the muuuuch easier route. And this is all owed to the 
> fact that MS is driving special campaigns instilling fear in the hearts of 
> non-MS companies, offering "great deals on software packages", "solving your 
> problems the right way", making you feel that if you don't go MS you're 
> screwed, etc. You never see SUN, do that, do you?
> 
In that case, you've made your choice, which is to work for a MS using company.
No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use MS products, you do
so of your own free will. Coming up with excuses to try and justify using
something you allege to hate so much is just pathetic.

Also, say for some reason you are "forced" into working temporarily for such
a company to pay the bills.. nothing is stopping you from looking for alternate
means of employment.

Seems to me you just want the quick and easy way out, and refuse to admit the
possibility that there are other options. Just because you haven't taken the
time to look at them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Regards,

-- 
Paul Mundt <lethal@chaoticdreams.org>

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marius Nita" <marius@pdx.edu>
To: <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!


> On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 01:01:51PM -0700, Paul Mundt wrote:
>
> > You always have a choice, work elsewhere. If you're in a position where
you're
> > working with MS products, you were the one who made the decision to do
so.
> > MS is not at fault, claiming so is childish.
>
> _I_ think it's childish to claim the above. You _may_ have a choice, yes,
but
> is that choice equal or fair? Microsoft has infected both the user area as

Look at it from the other side.  If you were in an all AIX or HPUX
environment and you wanted to support Microsoft products, it could be said
that it's not fair that you have to change jobs.  Oh please.

> much as the business/work area. If you want to purchase a PC because your
> computer just fried and you want to finish a paper or something, but you
> _want_ to use KOffice on Linux, and you don't care for Windows/Word
> whatsoever, what are the chances that if you run down to the computer
store
> your "choices" will be Windows/Word, _period_! You'll then have to make
sure

What a load of crap.  You *CAN* order a system with Linux on it, just go to
some computer manufacturer and ask for it.  If it's not available, install
it yourself or buy a workstation from Penguin Computing, or any other Linux
hardware mfg.  Retail choices are where the sales are.  That's not someone
after you, it's business.  The way to beat someone at business is either
break up a monopoly or beat them at their own game.

Stop blaming and do what they do better.  Period.

> that none of the hardware in it is Software driven-like winmodems-and that
> it's supported by Linux (or whatever OS you prefer). Almost all computers
out
> there (from well-known compianies) ship with winmodems. How is that a
choice?
> You have a choice to waste $70 on a harware modem, when someone who uses
> Windows doesn't?

Choice is with you, not with the manufacturer.  Winmodems are software
driven, so instead of down-talking the manufacturer, get a driver from a
Winmodem supplier.  I have a Lucent Winmodem in my system right now, it came
with a Compaq PC and it works just fine in Linux.  PCTel makes a large chunk
of winmodems and are willing to work to get a linux driver out there if we
just work with them.

Fact remains--be open minded, and you will find that there are lots of
people who want to have their products on Linux (means more money for them
in sales) if we just work with them instead of blaming them as M$ clones.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Justin Guyett]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Marius Nita wrote:

> _I_ think it's childish to claim the above. You _may_ have a choice, yes, but
> is that choice equal or fair? Microsoft has infected both the user area as

Problem: I don't like company policy
Solution: Deal or get another job

<whine>
Why should I have to spend time finding another job, it's the company's
fault for having company policies that I can't live with!  They should
change their policy for me!
</whine>

> So what I call a choice is a fare choice. And I don't see one here.

Peon:   Help!  I installed linux at work and got fired!
Oracle: You made a bad choice.

Are you saying that the fact that there's only one good choice in this
situation is Microsoft's fault?  I hope you wouldn't say "Microsoft MADE
me install linux."


On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Ben Ford wrote:

> The point is they aren't offering the best solution!  They are taking
> away all others!  That is why people dislike the company.

They aren't taking away anything.  They're flooding the market with their
software, and people are *still buying the stuff*.  And people who say
Excel and Powerpoint aren't the best-in-class solutions for the needs of
most executives are kidding themselves.


On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Dan Hollis wrote:

> On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
> As demonstrated many times over the past several years, it is becoming
> increasingly difficult to buy a PC without bundled m$-ware. Even if you
> dont use m$-ware you are still forced to pay for it.

And you can get a refund if you don't agree to the license.  Or you can
build your own computer.  The OS isn't the only thing Dell or Compaq or
anyone else forces on you.  Would you complain if you couldn't get a
machine from a major vendor with a certain disk drive, and were then
"forced" to buy it anyway, and trash the original drive?


Can this thread die please?  Some people see choices, some don't.  Some
people hate microsoft, some don't.  Perhaps someone should start a mailing
list for "Microsoft killed my cat, wrecked my car.. now I want to sue"
discussions.


justin

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Dan Hollis]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Justin Guyett wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Dan Hollis wrote:
> > On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
> > As demonstrated many times over the past several years, it is becoming
> > increasingly difficult to buy a PC without bundled m$-ware. Even if you
> > dont use m$-ware you are still forced to pay for it.
> And you can get a refund if you don't agree to the license.

No, you can't. (tested & proven)

> Or you can build your own computer.

Sure.

> The OS isn't the only thing Dell or Compaq or anyone else forces on
> you.  Would you complain if you couldn't get a machine from a major
> vendor with a certain disk drive, and were then "forced" to buy it
> anyway, and trash the original drive?

strawman and you know it.

-Dan

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Luigi Genoni]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Justin Guyett wrote:

>
> Problem: I don't like company policy
> Solution: Deal or get another job
Not so easy in every country.
For example in Italy the law called stauto dei lavoratori forbits workers
to change so easily.
>
>
> Peon:   Help!  I installed linux at work and got fired!
> Oracle: You made a bad choice.
>
Not so easy for a company, at less in Italy. In fact the statuto dei
lavoratori forbits a company to fire everyone for this kind of reasons.
Also companies are forbitten to use any audio-visive way to monitor
workers activities.

The point is that your discussion does apply just to USA, at less for the
terms you are using.

Problems out of USA are different.

I can install linux as i want, where i want, on sparc, on alpha, on ppc,
to do all I want,
but then M$ pre-sales have a good time to clean managers head, and to make
managers belive M$ is the just one way to go. And managers and politician
have power in companies, never technicians.

If I would be regularly employed, (i do prefer my freedom), i could never
be fired, of course, but anyway none would listen to me proposing linux,
just because i am a technician.

Luigi

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Ben Ford]

Paul Mundt wrote:

>On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 01:35:24PM -0400, Adam Schrotenboer wrote:
>
>>So as a user you are free to not use M$ products.
>>What if you are IT. Then you do not have a choice.
>>
>You always have a choice, work elsewhere. If you're in a position where you're
>working with MS products, you were the one who made the decision to do so.
>MS is not at fault, claiming so is childish.
>

Name a single tech company anywhere in the world that doesn't have to 
deal with microsoftisms.

[ . . . ]

>>When Win95 came out, I finally got to hate M$. Then I discovered Linux
>>and now I have a great dislike for M$ and their products.
>>
>This makes absolutely no sense. You didn't have a problem with MS originally,
>but as soon as Win95 came out you instantly hated them? A few issues with an
>OS are hardly valid grounds for "hating" a company.
>
>Also, I don't see how once you discovered Linux your hatred for MS grew. This
>also makes very little sense. If you were sitting there using MS products of
>
It makes perfect sense to me.  Take my family as an example.  My wife 
used Windows because she didn't know anything else existed.  She crashed 
and rebooted quite frequently and never knew there was an alternative. 
 Then she met me and was rather astounded that I hadn't rebooted my 
machine in months.  Now she hates Microsoft because she realizes what 
bullshit she went through.


[ . . . ]

>Oh please, next you'll be blaming world hunger on MS because third world
>countries can't afford licenses of win2k.
>

Well, when you realize that Bill Gates (not MS, just Bill Gates 
personally) has enough money to give every person in the world $10 out 
of his pocket, then you see this argument in a different light.

(Disclaimer:  This statistic was from 2 or 3 years ago.  I don't know 
what the figures are now.)

-- 
:    __o
:   -\<,
:   0/ 0
-----------

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Paul Mundt]

On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:50:44PM -0700, Ben Ford wrote:
> Name a single tech company anywhere in the world that doesn't have to 
> deal with microsoftisms.
> 
This depends on your definition of dealing with MSisms. If you mean having a
copy of an MS product physically present at a business location, that's
pretty much unavoidable.

If you mean working at a place where you yourself don't have to deal with it,
it all depends what line of work you're in. If you're some form of management
person, you might choose to work with Word because everyone else does, but
that goes back to it being your decision.

I can think of a lot of companies, such as WindRiver, QSSL, etc. where there
may be some level of involvement, but not everyone working in the company is
forced into things.

> It makes perfect sense to me.  Take my family as an example.  My wife 
> used Windows because she didn't know anything else existed.  She crashed 
> and rebooted quite frequently and never knew there was an alternative. 
>  Then she met me and was rather astounded that I hadn't rebooted my 
> machine in months.  Now she hates Microsoft because she realizes what 
> bullshit she went through.
> 
What a petty thing to hate a corporation over. If you're using a company's
product of your own free will, any issues that might arise out of using
the product is something you accepted when you purchased the product.

Not knowing ones options is also not the fault of MS. If you don't do your
research before getting into something, and you get screwed as a result, it's
your own fault for not looking into things before making a decision.

> Well, when you realize that Bill Gates (not MS, just Bill Gates 
> personally) has enough money to give every person in the world $10 out 
> of his pocket, then you see this argument in a different light.
> 
What does that have to do with anything? Someone makes some many, and they're
suddenly the cause of world hunger because they could donate all their money
but don't? This is also a moronic statement, as I seem to recall Gates
starting up a foundation for such things, and donating money to charity.

While I may not like alot of the things that MS does, or care for how Gates
does business, I'm still not going to try and blame the worlds problems on
him simply because he does some things I don't like.

Regards,

-- 
Paul Mundt <lethal@chaoticdreams.org>

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Ben Ford]

Paul Mundt wrote:

>On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:50:44PM -0700, Ben Ford wrote:
>
>>Name a single tech company anywhere in the world that doesn't have to 
>>deal with microsoftisms.
>>
>This depends on your definition of dealing with MSisms. If you mean having a
>copy of an MS product physically present at a business location, that's
>pretty much unavoidable.
>
>If you mean working at a place where you yourself don't have to deal with it,
>it all depends what line of work you're in. If you're some form of management
>person, you might choose to work with Word because everyone else does, but
>that goes back to it being your decision.
>
>I can think of a lot of companies, such as WindRiver, QSSL, etc. where there
>may be some level of involvement, but not everyone working in the company is
>forced into things.
>

I almost guarantee you that they get word docs in email.  And I bet you 
that most of them have been hit by the microsoft scripting viruses. 
 Even if they don't use outlook, they still get hit by the mails of 
those who do.

>>It makes perfect sense to me.  Take my family as an example.  My wife 
>>used Windows because she didn't know anything else existed.  She crashed 
>>and rebooted quite frequently and never knew there was an alternative. 
>> Then she met me and was rather astounded that I hadn't rebooted my 
>>machine in months.  Now she hates Microsoft because she realizes what 
>>bullshit she went through.
>>
>What a petty thing to hate a corporation over. If you're using a company's
>product of your own free will, any issues that might arise out of using
>the product is something you accepted when you purchased the product.
>
>Not knowing ones options is also not the fault of MS. If you don't do your
>research before getting into something, and you get screwed as a result, it's
>your own fault for not looking into things before making a decision.
>

It kind of is the fault of MS.  That is why they have so many marketing 
people.  Remember the DR-DOS thing where you'd get misinforming errors 
if you didn't run MS-DOS, inmplying that anything but was inferior and 
was gonna cause you all kinds of hell?

Of course, if you knew anything about it, you knew that it was bullshit. 
 But you expect the entire world of non-computer people to know this??? 
 What kind of crack are you smoking?

It also isn't "your own free will".  Remember the licensing agreements 
where the royalties paid to Microsoft were based on the number of 
computer systems sold whether or not they had windows on them?  So if 
you bought a computer system (95% of the end users out there buy them 
pre-built) you paid for windows whether you used it or not.  And if you 
wanted something else you paid for TWO operating systems.  Even now, it 
is quite a challenge to purchase a computer system without buying a copy 
of windows.

>>Well, when you realize that Bill Gates (not MS, just Bill Gates 
>>personally) has enough money to give every person in the world $10 out 
>>of his pocket, then you see this argument in a different light.
>>
>What does that have to do with anything? Someone makes some many, and they're
>suddenly the cause of world hunger because they could donate all their money
>but don't? This is also a moronic statement, as I seem to recall Gates
>starting up a foundation for such things, and donating money to charity.
>
>While I may not like alot of the things that MS does, or care for how Gates
>does business, I'm still not going to try and blame the worlds problems on
>him simply because he does some things I don't like.
>

The point is,  . . . that money came from somewhere . . . . .

-b

-- 
:    __o
:   -\<,
:   0/ 0
-----------

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Mundt" <lethal@ChaoticDreams.ORG>
To: "Ben Ford" <ben@kalifornia.com>
Cc: "Adam Schrotenboer" <ajschrotenboer@lycosmail.com>; "LKML"
<linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!


> On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:50:44PM -0700, Ben Ford wrote:
> > Name a single tech company anywhere in the world that doesn't have to
> > deal with microsoftisms.
>
> This depends on your definition of dealing with MSisms. If you mean having
a
> copy of an MS product physically present at a business location, that's
> pretty much unavoidable.
>
> If you mean working at a place where you yourself don't have to deal with
it,
> it all depends what line of work you're in. If you're some form of
management
> person, you might choose to work with Word because everyone else does, but
> that goes back to it being your decision.
>
> I can think of a lot of companies, such as WindRiver, QSSL, etc. where
there
> may be some level of involvement, but not everyone working in the company
is
> forced into things.

What some people don't realize is that Microsoft *DID* do Unix a long time
ago, they were even into OS/2 Development.  :-)

[snip]

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Graham Murray]

"Jim Roland" <jroland@roland.net> writes:

> What some people don't realize is that Microsoft *DID* do Unix a long time
> ago, they were even into OS/2 Development.  :-)

And they annoyed not just a few application vendors when just a few
months after giving the message "Go with OS/2, it is the way forward",
they abandoned it in favour of NT.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

Of course, being an OS/2 person myself before Slackware 1.2, I am still (to
this day) disappointed that OS/2 was abandoned by their own creators, IBM.
I'm waiting for IBM to abandon Linux in favor of their on Mainframe systems
again.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Murray" <graham@barnowl.demon.co.uk>
To: <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!


> "Jim Roland" <jroland@roland.net> writes:
>
> > What some people don't realize is that Microsoft *DID* do Unix a long
time
> > ago, they were even into OS/2 Development.  :-)
>
> And they annoyed not just a few application vendors when just a few
> months after giving the message "Go with OS/2, it is the way forward",
> they abandoned it in favour of NT.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jeff V. Merkey]

On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:50:44PM -0700, Ben Ford wrote:

Microsoft is like a mountain with their installed base.  Like it 
or not, no matter how loud the wind howls, the mountain cannot bow
to it.

:-)

Jeff



> Paul Mundt wrote:
> 
> >On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 01:35:24PM -0400, Adam Schrotenboer wrote:
> >
> >>So as a user you are free to not use M$ products.
> >>What if you are IT. Then you do not have a choice.
> >>
> >You always have a choice, work elsewhere. If you're in a position where you're
> >working with MS products, you were the one who made the decision to do so.
> >MS is not at fault, claiming so is childish.
> >
> 
> Name a single tech company anywhere in the world that doesn't have to 
> deal with microsoftisms.
> 
> [ . . . ]
> 
> >>When Win95 came out, I finally got to hate M$. Then I discovered Linux
> >>and now I have a great dislike for M$ and their products.
> >>
> >This makes absolutely no sense. You didn't have a problem with MS originally,
> >but as soon as Win95 came out you instantly hated them? A few issues with an
> >OS are hardly valid grounds for "hating" a company.
> >
> >Also, I don't see how once you discovered Linux your hatred for MS grew. This
> >also makes very little sense. If you were sitting there using MS products of
> >
> It makes perfect sense to me.  Take my family as an example.  My wife 
> used Windows because she didn't know anything else existed.  She crashed 
> and rebooted quite frequently and never knew there was an alternative. 
>  Then she met me and was rather astounded that I hadn't rebooted my 
> machine in months.  Now she hates Microsoft because she realizes what 
> bullshit she went through.
> 
> 
> [ . . . ]
> 
> >Oh please, next you'll be blaming world hunger on MS because third world
> >countries can't afford licenses of win2k.
> >
> 
> Well, when you realize that Bill Gates (not MS, just Bill Gates 
> personally) has enough money to give every person in the world $10 out 
> of his pocket, then you see this argument in a different light.
> 
> (Disclaimer:  This statistic was from 2 or 3 years ago.  I don't know 
> what the figures are now.)
> 
> -- 
> :    __o
> :   -\<,
> :   0/ 0
> -----------
> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Kurt Maxwell Weber]

Good god, I've created a monster.

I intended to just make one point and that be the end of it, but obviously I 
misjudged.  I should have just sent it privately so as to prevent this flood 
of OT posts.  I apologize for that.  I made a mistake, and now I know better.

Sorry for the trouble.

-- 
Regards,
Kurt Weber
kmw@rowsw.com

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Steve Brueggeman]

G'damn!!!!  That's so poetically accurate, I've added it to my sig list.

I've worked in a large tech corporation for many years, (20+) and I've
relatively recently had to attempt to `open` some managerial minds, and
discovered futility of it all.

"A company's public perception is an invaluable asset, that must be dealt with
kid gloves"  (not to mention managerial politics and positioning)

P.S.  Yes, I think that Microsoft does have some of the better software products
out there, but they'll never be able to take away my right to choose.  Without
Linux, I probably wouldn't say that with such confidence!!!

PPSS  Microsoft has proven that performance, is in fact, not everything, but
Gnome, and KDE have taken that point to an extreme.

PPPSSS I'm looking for that to change within 5 years.

Steve Brueggeman


On Sun, 1 Jul 2001 19:11:21 -0700, you wrote:

>On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:50:44PM -0700, Ben Ford wrote:
>
>Microsoft is like a mountain with their installed base.  Like it 
>or not, no matter how loud the wind howls, the mountain cannot bow
>to it.
>
>:-)
>
>Jeff
>

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Schrotenboer" <ajschrotenboer@lycosmail.com>
To: "LKML" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!


> Kurt Maxwell Weber <kmw@rowsw.com>:
>
>  > I'm going to take a break from lurking to point out that I am not
>  > dissatisfied with Windows.  It has its uses, as do Linux (and NetBSD,
and
>  > Solaris, and the other operating systems I have installed at home).
> Frankly,
>  > I don't have a problem with Microsoft.  If I don't like their
> product, I'm
>  > free to choose not to use it.
>
> So as a user you are free to not use M$ products.
> What if you are IT. Then you do not have a choice.
>
> I have been working as a Computer Tech for approx 5 years.
> When I first started (before that period actually, I speak of my Jr high
> years)
> I liked MS, if only b/c it was better than the other Intel solutions
> (This is approx 1993 or 1994). When OS/2 came out, I thought it was
> a joke (My father had it on his computer, I couldn't even get the
calculator
> to run).
>
> When Win95 came out, I finally got to hate M$. Then I discovered Linux
> and now I have a great dislike for M$ and their products.
>
> I appreciate that as a user you may have a choice. As a tech or MIS/IT,
> I don't have
> a choice. As such I believe that I have been "damaged" by M$.
>

You do have a choice over what you use.  In any real-world scenario, you
will have to support a lot of what you don't like--that's why it's called a
JOB.  Either support what's out there, or go into business for yourself
where you can choose what you support or not support.  I have been in IT for
15 years, and quite frankly, most computer users today who do not use a Wyse
or VT100 terminal, are too dumb to use anything advanced, so they use
something like Windows.

Why not just let someone come up with a window manager that looks & acts
like Windows 9x, perfect Wine, then put linux on their systems.

Instead of blaming someone, we need to fight Microslut at their own game and
not blame someone else, but come up with solutions that are better than what
they have out there.  We know Linux is technically superior, but we need now
is something that is user-superior.  Microsoft is already scared of Linux,
let's give them something to be really scared of.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Android]

>_I_ think it's childish to claim the above. You _may_ have a choice, yes, but
>is that choice equal or fair? Microsoft has infected both the user area as
>much as the business/work area. If you want to purchase a PC because your
>computer just fried and you want to finish a paper or something, but you
>_want_ to use KOffice on Linux, and you don't care for Windows/Word
>whatsoever, what are the chances that if you run down to the computer store
>your "choices" will be Windows/Word, _period_! You'll then have to make sure
>that none of the hardware in it is Software driven-like winmodems-and that
>it's supported by Linux (or whatever OS you prefer). Almost all computers out
>there (from well-known compianies) ship with winmodems. How is that a choice?
>You have a choice to waste $70 on a harware modem, when someone who uses
>Windows doesn't?
>
>--
>    Marius Nita

I'm not about to defend MicroSoft, but I will say this:
When it comes to getting PC's, the best solution is to build your own.
You pick the parts you want, you choose the software to install.
This way you are sure to get a standard machine, and you get the
original CD's and manuals that make up the software.
Of course, the best bet in that area is to just download Linux from your
favorite FTP site and not worry about spending money on Microsoft products.

                      -- Ted

Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Rick Hohensee]

The two branches of the USA that pertain have now confirmed that Microsoft
is a problem requiring an externally asserted solution, but the judicial
branch has rejected the specific solution proposed by the executive
branch. Three other proposed remedies are mentioned in the Washington Post
today. One involves allowing developers access to Microsoft sourcecode
equally. One involves allowing computer vendors to configure the Microsoft
software as they see fit. The third involves unbundling software from the
OS. Gates had stated, correctly, that the split of the company proposed by
DOJ did not reflect any understanding of the software business. Looking at
the three subsequent proposals, it appears to me that this problem is
still searching for a solution. These three recent superficialities also
do not appear to be the ideas of people who know how these things work.
Meanwhile, Microsoft whole-heartedly engages in a depraved attack on the
copyright rights of individuals, making it delightfully clear that the
problem remains unsolved, and that Microsoft's general degradation of the
computer world continues unabated.
























                        HELLO???????

                    ANY GEEKS IN HERE?


        ANY OF YOU TURKEYS GOOD WITH PROBLEM-SOLVING?



My hastily concocted proposed solution remains at...

ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/install/clienux/interim/amicus_curae



                        WHERE'S YOURS?

Rick Hohensee
www.cLIeNUX.com  Who do you want to piss off today?

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

Pardon me, but what does this have to do with Linux or the Linux Kernel?!?!
Post this on the usenet under advocacy, but please don't litter up the
kernel listserver with this.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Hohensee" <humbubba@smarty.smart.net>
To: <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 8:36 PM
Subject: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!


>
> The two branches of the USA that pertain have now confirmed that Microsoft
> is a problem requiring an externally asserted solution, but the judicial
> branch has rejected the specific solution proposed by the executive
> branch. Three other proposed remedies are mentioned in the Washington Post
> today. One involves allowing developers access to Microsoft sourcecode
> equally. One involves allowing computer vendors to configure the Microsoft
> software as they see fit. The third involves unbundling software from the
> OS. Gates had stated, correctly, that the split of the company proposed by
> DOJ did not reflect any understanding of the software business. Looking at
> the three subsequent proposals, it appears to me that this problem is
> still searching for a solution. These three recent superficialities also
> do not appear to be the ideas of people who know how these things work.
> Meanwhile, Microsoft whole-heartedly engages in a depraved attack on the
> copyright rights of individuals, making it delightfully clear that the
> problem remains unsolved, and that Microsoft's general degradation of the
> computer world continues unabated.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                         HELLO???????
>
>                     ANY GEEKS IN HERE?
>
>
>         ANY OF YOU TURKEYS GOOD WITH PROBLEM-SOLVING?
>
>
>
> My hastily concocted proposed solution remains at...
>
> ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/install/clienux/interim/amicus_curae
>
>
>
>                         WHERE'S YOURS?
>
> Rick Hohensee
> www.cLIeNUX.com  Who do you want to piss off today?
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Rick Hohensee]

> 
> Pardon me, but what does this have to do with Linux or the Linux Kernel?!?!
> Post this on the usenet under advocacy, but please don't litter up the
> kernel listserver with this.

What this has to do with Linux is that throughout the whole process
Microsoft has been putting Linux in the news, on the front page, and now
is the opportunity for the people who have been damaged by Microsoft, the
people that have very good reasons to be massively dissatisfied with
Windows, a set of people that the readers of this list exemplifies, have
an opportunity to speak on the matter in a helpful and substantive way
that will be of more benefit than any work directly on Linux itself can
be, to the computer world generally and to Linux.


Rick Hohensee
:; cLIeNUX /dev/tty3  11:09:49   /
:;d
ABOUT        Linux        boot         floppy       mounts       temp
ABOUT.Linux  NetBSD       command      guest        owner
Cintpos      README       configure    help         source
GPL          RIGHTS       dev          incoming     subroutine
LGPL         VVT.tar      device       log          suite
:; cLIeNUX /dev/tty3  11:29:59   /
:;
 

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Kurt Maxwell Weber]

On Sunday 01 July 2001 11:02, Rick Hohensee ignorantly blabbered:
> > Pardon me, but what does this have to do with Linux or the Linux
> > Kernel?!?! Post this on the usenet under advocacy, but please don't
> > litter up the kernel listserver with this.
>
> What this has to do with Linux is that throughout the whole process
> Microsoft has been putting Linux in the news, on the front page, and now
> is the opportunity for the people who have been damaged by Microsoft, the
> people that have very good reasons to be massively dissatisfied with
> Windows, a set of people that the readers of this list exemplifies, have
> an opportunity to speak on the matter in a helpful and substantive way
> that will be of more benefit than any work directly on Linux itself can
> be, to the computer world generally and to Linux.

I'm going to take a break from lurking to point out that I am not 
dissatisfied with Windows.  It has its uses, as do Linux (and NetBSD, and 
Solaris, and the other operating systems I have installed at home).  Frankly, 
I don't have a problem with Microsoft.  If I don't like their product, I'm 
free to choose not to use it.

-- 
Regards,
Kurt Weber
kmw@rowsw.com

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Kurt Maxwell Weber]

On Sunday 01 July 2001 13:48, you wrote:
> Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
> > I'm going to take a break from lurking to point out that I am not
> > dissatisfied with Windows.  It has its uses, as do Linux (and NetBSD, and
> > Solaris, and the other operating systems I have installed at home). 
> > Frankly, I don't have a problem with Microsoft.  If I don't like their
> > product, I'm free to choose not to use it.
>
> You do understand, don't you, that microsoft is
> working frantically to take that choice away from
> you? it's easy to sit back and say it doesn't affect
> you, til one day you realize that you can't connect
> to your ISP unless you are running windows xp.
>
> Then it hits you, and it's too late.

In that case, I have the following options:
1) Start my own ISP
2) Use Windows XP
3) Not use Windows XP and not be able to use my current ISP
4) Go to a different ISP

I'll just have to decide which I value more.  As long as I won't be killed 
for using a different OS, I still have a choice.
-- 
Regards,
Kurt Weber
kmw@rowsw.com

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Lew Wolfgang]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
> In that case, I have the following options:
> 1) Start my own ISP
> 2) Use Windows XP
> 3) Not use Windows XP and not be able to use my current ISP
> 4) Go to a different ISP
>
> I'll just have to decide which I value more.  As long as I won't be killed
> for using a different OS, I still have a choice.

But these are false alternatives!  "I'll give you a choice, I remove
either your right foot or your left arm.  Your choice."  The choice
of "neither" is not given.  All I want is true alternatives.  I
hope that one of those alternatives will be to opt out of the
coercive, advertising rich, commercial environment that is in
our future.

Regards,
Lew Wolfgang

RE: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[David Schwartz]

> On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
> > In that case, I have the following options:
> > 1) Start my own ISP
> > 2) Use Windows XP
> > 3) Not use Windows XP and not be able to use my current ISP
> > 4) Go to a different ISP

	Argument.

> > I'll just have to decide which I value more.  As long as I
> > won't be killed
> > for using a different OS, I still have a choice.

	Argument.

> But these are false alternatives!  "I'll give you a choice, I remove
> either your right foot or your left arm.  Your choice."

	Gun.

> The choice
> of "neither" is not given.

	Gun.

> All I want is true alternatives.  I
> hope that one of those alternatives will be to opt out of the
> coercive, advertising rich, commercial environment that is in
> our future.

	Go ahead and opt out. The only one using or threatening force here seems to
be you.

	DS

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jesse Pollard]

On Sun, 01 Jul 2001, Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
>On Sunday 01 July 2001 13:48, you wrote:
>> Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
>> > I'm going to take a break from lurking to point out that I am not
>> > dissatisfied with Windows.  It has its uses, as do Linux (and NetBSD, and
>> > Solaris, and the other operating systems I have installed at home). 
>> > Frankly, I don't have a problem with Microsoft.  If I don't like their
>> > product, I'm free to choose not to use it.
>>
>> You do understand, don't you, that microsoft is
>> working frantically to take that choice away from
>> you? it's easy to sit back and say it doesn't affect
>> you, til one day you realize that you can't connect
>> to your ISP unless you are running windows xp.
>>
>> Then it hits you, and it's too late.
>
>In that case, I have the following options:
>1) Start my own ISP

Only if the upstream provider doesn't require you to use windows.

>2) Use Windows XP
>3) Not use Windows XP and not be able to use my current ISP
>4) Go to a different ISP

You may not be able to find another. It took me a year. I gave up. I was
fortunate that Verio doesn't care what you have... though if you use
the dialup or basic dsl, MS is it, or no real support.

>I'll just have to decide which I value more.  As long as I won't be killed 
>for using a different OS, I still have a choice.

No, but you might be forced out of a job.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesse I Pollard, II
Email: jesse@cats-chateau.net

Any opinions expressed are solely my own.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jesse Pollard]

On Sun, 01 Jul 2001, Jesse Pollard wrote:
>On Sun, 01 Jul 2001, Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
>>I'll just have to decide which I value more.  As long as I won't be killed 
>>for using a different OS, I still have a choice.
>
>No, but you might be forced out of a job.

Apologies for the followup to a followup:

You might be if the life monitoring sensors in surgury suddenly need
to be "registered with MS, or ... will be shutdown..."  ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesse I Pollard, II
Email: jesse@cats-chateau.net

Any opinions expressed are solely my own.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Ben Ford]

Jesse Pollard wrote:

>On Sun, 01 Jul 2001, Jesse Pollard wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 01 Jul 2001, Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
>>
>>>I'll just have to decide which I value more.  As long as I won't be killed 
>>>for using a different OS, I still have a choice.
>>>
>>No, but you might be forced out of a job.
>>
>
>Apologies for the followup to a followup:
>
>You might be if the life monitoring sensors in surgury suddenly need
>to be "registered with MS, or ... will be shutdown..."  ;-)
>

Or a BSOD.

This seems to be meant as a joke, but I don't think it's all that unlikely.

I seem to recall that MS products cannot be used in aircraft control 
rooms for this reason.

-b

-- 
:    __o
:   -\<,
:   0/ 0
-----------

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[William T Wilson]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Ben Ford wrote:

> This seems to be meant as a joke, but I don't think it's all that unlikely.
> 
> I seem to recall that MS products cannot be used in aircraft control 
> rooms for this reason.

It's not just MS.  Aircraft control rooms (as well as nuclear power
plants, spacecraft mission control, etc.) require special certified
software to be used - it's not simply that they avoid MS, they avoid all
software that hasn't been blessed.

My understanding is that astronauts going up on the shuttle take turns
bringing a laptop computer so they have actual computing power available
to them.  The shuttle computer is not adequate for many tasks because it
is something like 30 years old, but that's what they use because it is
certified.  So somebody has to bring along a non-certified system in their
"personal effects" allowance to get real work done :}

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

----- Original Message -----
From: "William T Wilson" <fluffy@snurgle.org>
To: "Ben Ford" <ben@kalifornia.com>
Cc: <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!


> On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Ben Ford wrote:
>
> > This seems to be meant as a joke, but I don't think it's all that
unlikely.
> >
> > I seem to recall that MS products cannot be used in aircraft control
> > rooms for this reason.
>
> It's not just MS.  Aircraft control rooms (as well as nuclear power
> plants, spacecraft mission control, etc.) require special certified
> software to be used - it's not simply that they avoid MS, they avoid all
> software that hasn't been blessed.
>
> My understanding is that astronauts going up on the shuttle take turns
> bringing a laptop computer so they have actual computing power available
> to them.  The shuttle computer is not adequate for many tasks because it
> is something like 30 years old, but that's what they use because it is
> certified.  So somebody has to bring along a non-certified system in their
> "personal effects" allowance to get real work done :}

>From what I've heard, NASA relies heavily on modified Linux.

> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[James A. Sutherland]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2001 20:19:07 -0500 Mon,  2 Jul 01 12:25:43 BST, you
wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "William T Wilson" <fluffy@snurgle.org>
>> On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Ben Ford wrote:
>>
>> > This seems to be meant as a joke, but I don't think it's all that
>unlikely.
>> >
>> > I seem to recall that MS products cannot be used in aircraft control
>> > rooms for this reason.
>>
>> It's not just MS.  Aircraft control rooms (as well as nuclear power
>> plants, spacecraft mission control, etc.) require special certified
>> software to be used - it's not simply that they avoid MS, they avoid all
>> software that hasn't been blessed.
>>
>> My understanding is that astronauts going up on the shuttle take turns
>> bringing a laptop computer so they have actual computing power available
>> to them.  The shuttle computer is not adequate for many tasks because it
>> is something like 30 years old, but that's what they use because it is
>> certified.  So somebody has to bring along a non-certified system in their
>> "personal effects" allowance to get real work done :}
>
>From what I've heard, NASA relies heavily on modified Linux.

Last time I was in Mission Control at JSC, some of the consoles I
looked at were very obviously X desktops. I didn't look closely enough
to identify them more specifically - I'll take a closer look next
month when I'm out there again...


James.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Dan Hollis]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, William T Wilson wrote:
> My understanding is that astronauts going up on the shuttle take turns
> bringing a laptop computer so they have actual computing power available
> to them.  The shuttle computer is not adequate for many tasks because it
> is something like 30 years old, but that's what they use because it is
> certified.  So somebody has to bring along a non-certified system in their
> "personal effects" allowance to get real work done :}

No.. the laptops are certified too. Not all the software on them I think,
but the hardware is definitely restricted and often modified.

The shuttle computers are designed for ONE task -- flying the spacecraft.
They are not designed to read email or play quake3. FWIW I do not think
you would WANT the shuttle computers doing anything else - these are
specially designed hard realtime triple redundant systems quite different
from laptops.

FWIW if you read the public records of space station and shuttle logs,
it's downright scary how often m$ stuff causes big problems up there.

-Dan

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Joel Jaeggli]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, William T Wilson wrote:

> On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Ben Ford wrote:
> My understanding is that astronauts going up on the shuttle take turns
> bringing a laptop computer so they have actual computing power available
> to them.

actually the mission related laptops are thinkpads running win95...

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=213

the ISS also has some running solaris x86...

all sorts of other computers have flow as parts of payloads...

>  The shuttle computer is not adequate for many tasks because it
> is something like 30 years old, but that's what they use because it is
> certified.  So somebody has to bring along a non-certified system in their
> "personal effects" allowance to get real work done :}

avionics packages onboard the suttle have been significantly updated,
since first flight(understatement). atlantis was the first to fly with the
glass cockpit sometime in early 2000.

joelja

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Joel Jaeggli				       joelja@darkwing.uoregon.edu
Academic User Services			     consult@gladstone.uoregon.edu
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It is clear that the arm of criticism cannot replace the criticism of
arms.  Karl Marx -- Introduction to the critique of Hegel's Philosophy of
the right, 1843.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Tracy R Reed]

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On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 09:09:32PM -0400, William T Wilson wrote:
> It's not just MS.  Aircraft control rooms (as well as nuclear power
> plants, spacecraft mission control, etc.) require special certified
> software to be used - it's not simply that they avoid MS, they avoid all
> software that hasn't been blessed.

Not true. The FAA is certifying NT in aircraft. See the message I just
sent.

-- 
Tracy Reed      http://www.ultraviolet.org
"Bill Gates is a white Persian cat and a monocle away from becoming another
James Bond villain."
"No Mr Bond, I expect you to upgrade." --Dennis Miller

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Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Tracy R Reed]

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On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:53:25PM -0700, Ben Ford wrote:
> I seem to recall that MS products cannot be used in aircraft control 
> rooms for this reason.

Your statement above is not necessarily true. By control rooms do you mean
control towers or in the aircraft themselves? Inside the aircraft itself
is obviously the more critical situation and NT is being used there so I
don't see why it wouldn't be used in the air traffic control system as
well whether it be in control towers, air route traffic control centers,
or wherever.

MS products are used in life-critical situations.  First, there was the
USS Yorktown. But that was just a test situation.  

Here is an NT system used in a real non-test and FAA certified situation.
It operates the primary flight instruments of a high-performance aircraft.
There are several certified aircraft using this unit. I can't remember the
others I've read about but this is the Lancair Columbia 400.

From http://www.avweb.com/articles/colum400/ :

>Stationary is the word until the system boots -- perhaps like the computer
>you're using to read this -- and the solid-state AHARS (attitude, heading
>and reference system) sensors orient. Of course, this slight delay (the
>avionics system uses an even more stable version of Microsoft's
>almost-bulletproof Windows NT) generally won't pose a problem during cold
>starts -- particularly cold-weather cold starts.

I gasped aloud when I read "almost-bulletproof Windows NT".

As a pilot who flies people into the clouds regularly (San Diego usually
has good weather but only after the marine layer clears) I can tell you
that a reliable attitude indicator (AI) is an absolute life-critical
necessity. Without one, you are in serious trouble. When inside a cloud
without visual reference to the ground all you see out the windows is
whiteness. It's like being on the inside of a giant white sphere with no
markings whatsoever. Or blackness if at night. If the attitude indicator
fails vertigo often sets in as you can't tell which way is up as your
brain, confused by the unnatural state of not having any visual reference
to the horizon, tells you incorrect things. You can't just drop a penny
and see which way it falls or hang a string from the ceiling and see which
way it hangs or look at the level of water in a glass to see what is
level. The aircraft will be turning steeply (left or right, you have no
way of knowing and banking the aircraft the wrong way will only make it
much worse very fast) which means it is being accelerated towards the
inside of the turn so the penny may fall straight down, the string may
hang straight, and the water in the glass might be level. Whatever these
things are doing, they won't be right. You will be descending very quickly
now since the lift of the steeply banked wings is being generated
horizontally instead of vertically, tightening the turn. This continues
until impact. You have absolutely no way to tell which way is up or which
way you are turning without a stable gyroscopic reference. It is my (and
every pilots) worst nightmare when flying in clouds or anytime the outside
horizon is not clearly visible.

Yes, there are instruments which can be used to derive attitude
information such as rate of turn, altimeter, vertical speed indicator,
etc. (assuming they aren't driven by the same crashed computer as the AI)
and this is standard procedure in the case of AI failure but it takes lots
of practice to be able to use them because the information they provide
you with is indirect and requires interpretation. Not an easy thing to do
when you know you are in serious trouble. Missouri Governer Mel Carnahan
was killed in a plane crash recently where the attitude indicator failed
and the pilot had to interpret the other instruments to get attitude info
and wasn't able to cut it. The article quoted above claims that this is a
special version of NT that really is stable...no we really mean it this
time! Why they don't make this especially stable version available to
consumers is beyond me...oh wait, I know why: because it's really just the
same code everyone runs on their servers and desktops! Fortunately, this
system only runs for a few hours at a time and gets shut down/rebooted
after every flight. It also runs only one application and never has any
new software installed or uninstalled. No network access either. That
should help a lot with reliability. I hope this thing doesn't have a hard
drive in it. The gyroscopic effects on the platter of a pitching aircraft
can't be good for the bearings. This equipment is so expensive that it is
expected to last many years, even decades. Who is going to support NT 20
years from now? This setup was approved and certified for use by the FAA.
I wonder if any software engineers looked at it? I'll have to find out
what criteria they use for certifying this sort of thing. It must use an
x86 processor too. I sure hope it has good cooling. I've already had one
avionics failure due to overheating (a cooling duct came loose behind the
instrument panel and I lost the whole radio stack so there was no way to
get clearances or anything) and I would really hate for it to happen in
instrument conditions!

I'm all for modernizing the cockpit with computers. Putting all of the
flight info onto a flat panel display is very useful. Some airplanes I've
flown are 30 years old with instruments that really look it. 

Which leads me to wonder: Would I trust Linux in this situation?

More so than NT but I still don't know what my first choice would really
be given that death is a possibility if it fails at an inopportune time.

In three hours I depart for a flight over open ocean with potential
visibility restrictions (still need to get the weather briefing). I better
do a thorough preflight and make sure all inspections are current.
Wouldn't want to pull a Kennedy!

-- 
Tracy Reed      http://www.ultraviolet.org
"Bill Gates is a white Persian cat and a monocle away from becoming another
James Bond villain."
"No Mr Bond, I expect you to upgrade." --Dennis Miller

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Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Richard B. Johnson]

On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Tracy R Reed wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:53:25PM -0700, Ben Ford wrote:
> > I seem to recall that MS products cannot be used in aircraft control 
> > rooms for this reason.
> 
> Your statement above is not necessarily true. By control rooms do you mean
> control towers or in the aircraft themselves? Inside the aircraft itself
> is obviously the more critical situation and NT is being used there so I
> don't see why it wouldn't be used in the air traffic control system as
> well whether it be in control towers, air route traffic control centers,
> or wherever.
> 
> MS products are used in life-critical situations.  First, there was the
> USS Yorktown. But that was just a test situation.  
> 
> Here is an NT system used in a real non-test and FAA certified situation.
> It operates the primary flight instruments of a high-performance aircraft.
> There are several certified aircraft using this unit. I can't remember the
> others I've read about but this is the Lancair Columbia 400.
> 
> From http://www.avweb.com/articles/colum400/ :

[SNIPPED most of the rest]

It's Windows/CE. It takes a few seconds to boot from NVRAM. It's used
in Honeywell Flight Directors (for the FP display). It's not like
it was life-critical, you still have (required) steam gages for
backup. It is probably more reliable than the mechanical backups
because, except for the bugs, it has no moving parts.
 
> Wouldn't want to pull a Kennedy!

Don't bet on it. I'm not a Kennedy supporter, but the "rich kid"
went to the best and most expensive flight school in America. He
had already passed the Instrument written exam. He had more flight
instruction than many ATPs and the instruction was modern which means
he seldom looked out the window (a pet peeve of mine), doing about
everything by reference to instruments.

FYI. The horizontal stabilizer was not with the airplane when
it was recovered; The damage was impact damage from hitting water
dead-nuts vertical; The loss of control occurred while leveling
off during a routine descent.

Regardless of what the politicians at the NTSB say, this looks
to me like the AC shed its tail, resulting in an unrecoverable
loss of control. Of course, what do I know. I'm only a commercial
pilot/Inst with a little over 3,000 hours over the past 30 years.

Cheers,
Dick Johnson

Penguin : Linux version 2.4.1 on an i686 machine (799.53 BogoMips).

    I was going to compile a list of innovations that could be
    attributed to Microsoft. Once I realized that Ctrl-Alt-Del
    was handled in the BIOS, I found that there aren't any.

Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!

[Jim Roland]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Pollard" <jesse@cats-chateau.net>
To: <kmw@rowsw.com>; "Kurt Maxwell Weber" <kmw@rowsw.com>; "J Sloan"
<jjs@mirai.cx>
Cc: <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: Uncle Sam Wants YOU!


[snip]
> >In that case, I have the following options:
> >1) Start my own ISP
>
> Only if the upstream provider doesn't require you to use windows.
>
> >2) Use Windows XP
> >3) Not use Windows XP and not be able to use my current ISP
> >4) Go to a different ISP
>
> You may not be able to find another. It took me a year. I gave up. I was
> fortunate that Verio doesn't care what you have... though if you use
> the dialup or basic dsl, MS is it, or no real support.
>
> >I'll just have to decide which I value more.  As long as I won't be
killed
> >for using a different OS, I still have a choice.
>
> No, but you might be forced out of a job.

In one of the large metro areas in which I live, there are a LOT of ISPs
that do not require you to use Windows, but will not support you beyond the
IP layer if you don't.  Use linux, install PPP with MS-CHAPv2 (with or
without MPPE) for your dialup connection and it works just fine on a
Winblows-only ISP.  DSL or Cable, just acquire your actual IP settings
program a Linksys router/hub box and be done with it.