From: Pete Zaitcev <zaitcev@redhat.com>
To: Daniel Phillips <phillips@arcor.de>
Cc: Pete Zaitcev <zaitcev@redhat.com>,
linux-usb-devel@lists.sourceforge.net,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [linux-usb-devel] Re: [BK PATCH] USB changes for 2.5.34
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:23:04 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20020915142304.A21363@devserv.devel.redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <E17qalv-0000B6-00@starship>; from phillips@arcor.de on Sun, Sep 15, 2002 at 04:53:15PM +0200
> From: Daniel Phillips <phillips@arcor.de>
> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:53:15 +0200
> On Sunday 15 September 2002 08:07, Pete Zaitcev wrote:
> > > From: Daniel Phillips <phillips@arcor.de>
> > > Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 07:10:00 +0200
> >
> > >[...]
> > > Let's try a different show of hands: How many users would be happier if
> > > they knew that kernel developers are using modern techniques to improve
> > > the quality of the kernel?
> >
> > I do not see how using a debugger improves a quality of the kernel.
>
> It improves my quality of life, that would be enough by itself. [...]
>[...]
> The answer to the question "is this sillyness slowing down development
> and reducing the quality of the kernel?" is "yes". I don't have to
> speculate about that any more, I've seen it enough with my own eyes.
> Now ask yourself who the most productive hackers are today, and ask
> yourself if they are using the good ol zen state blunt edged tools.
OK, so you actually do not care about users getting happier.
You should have added a smilie to the quote about the show
of hands then.
The agrument about your quality of life does hold some water,
at least I do not doubt that kdb makes you and Andrew happier.
This is a wonderful thing. I do strongly suspect though, that
any gains you get on the productivity front are NOT going to
be used to improve code quality.
> Look, we tried the zen state thing. It didn't work. Think about the
> madness in the period between 2.3 and 2.4, with one oops after another
> reported to the list, each taking days or weeks to track down. [...]
This has nothing to do with a debugger, this is a different topic.
You actually want a crash dump analyzis tool, and so do I.
So, let's discuss that. I happen to get e-mails with oops in USB
callbacks pretty often, and they are always useless. It would be
possible to track them if off-stack memory was saved, perhaps.
However, to expect users to use debugger to collect this off-stack
information is a delusion.
This is why Red Hat stopped shipping kdb and started to ship
netdump (or so I think, anyway). It is a much more effective
tool for the crash analysis, and it can be operated by a user.
I think it beats a debugger fair and square. N.B. The data
that netdump collects may be an image to be examined by a
debugger (such as gdb), together with dedicated analysis tools.
That's entirely different debugger, so no hypocrisicy here.
-- Pete
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2002-09-15 18:18 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 99+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2002-09-09 22:17 [BK PATCH] USB changes for 2.5.34 Greg KH
2002-09-10 0:17 ` Linus Torvalds
2002-09-10 0:19 ` Greg KH
2002-09-10 0:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2002-09-10 0:40 ` [linux-usb-devel] " Alan Cox
2002-09-10 1:41 ` Linus Torvalds
2002-09-10 1:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2002-09-10 10:23 ` Andries Brouwer
2002-09-10 0:35 ` Nicholas Miell
2002-09-10 1:01 ` [patch] dump_stack(): arch-neutral stack trace Andrew Morton
2002-09-15 4:34 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-15 4:51 ` Andrew Morton
2002-09-10 1:27 ` [BK PATCH] USB changes for 2.5.34 Linus Torvalds
2002-09-10 2:07 ` Matthew Dharm
2002-09-10 2:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2002-09-10 2:59 ` Linus Torvalds
2002-09-10 16:32 ` [linux-usb-devel] " David Brownell
2002-09-10 16:51 ` Linus Torvalds
2002-09-10 17:16 ` Jeff Garzik
2002-09-10 18:16 ` David S. Miller
2002-09-10 18:40 ` Linus Torvalds
2002-09-10 18:48 ` Jeff Garzik
2002-09-10 19:31 ` David S. Miller
2002-09-10 19:32 ` Oliver Xymoron
2002-09-10 19:38 ` Linus Torvalds
2002-09-10 19:43 ` Jeff Garzik
2002-09-10 21:52 ` Bill Davidsen
2002-09-10 22:02 ` Jeff Garzik
2002-09-10 18:44 ` Alan Cox
2002-09-10 19:03 ` Linus Torvalds
2002-09-10 19:27 ` Rik van Riel
2002-09-10 20:18 ` Alan Cox
2002-09-10 22:00 ` David Woodhouse
2002-09-10 22:23 ` Alan Cox
2002-09-10 22:26 ` David Woodhouse
2002-09-10 23:01 ` Alan Cox
2002-09-10 19:29 ` David S. Miller
2002-09-15 5:10 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-15 5:33 ` Daniel Berlin
2002-09-15 16:41 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-16 0:32 ` Horst von Brand
2002-09-15 6:07 ` Pete Zaitcev
2002-09-15 7:00 ` Andrew Morton
2002-09-15 14:53 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-15 18:23 ` Pete Zaitcev [this message]
2002-09-15 18:34 ` Jeff Garzik
2002-09-16 0:55 ` Larry McVoy
2002-09-15 20:05 ` David Woodhouse
2002-09-15 21:35 ` Rob Landley
2002-09-16 3:00 ` Larry McVoy
2002-09-16 3:08 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-16 11:16 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2002-09-16 18:35 ` Thunder from the hill
2002-09-16 18:45 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-16 19:36 ` Thunder from the hill
2002-09-16 19:40 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-16 8:50 ` Ian Molton
2002-09-16 9:37 ` Rob Landley
2002-09-15 18:06 ` Linus Torvalds
2002-09-15 18:36 ` Roman Zippel
2002-09-15 19:04 ` Daniel Jacobowitz
2002-09-15 19:43 ` Andrew Morton
2002-09-15 19:43 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-15 23:24 ` Larry McVoy
2002-09-15 23:41 ` Daniel Jacobowitz
2002-09-15 23:52 ` Larry McVoy
2002-09-16 0:01 ` Robert Love
2002-09-16 1:29 ` Alan Cox
2002-09-16 2:13 ` Larry McVoy
2002-09-16 11:05 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2002-09-16 14:05 ` Rogier Wolff
2002-09-16 16:24 ` Marco Colombo
2002-09-16 0:44 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-16 1:23 ` Alan Cox
2002-09-15 19:07 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-16 9:06 ` Jens Axboe
2002-09-16 15:15 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-16 15:59 ` kernel debuggers was [Re: [linux-usb-devel] Re: [BK PATCH] USB changes for 2.5.34] Soewono Effendi
2002-09-16 14:14 ` [linux-usb-devel] Re: [BK PATCH] USB changes for 2.5.34 David Woodhouse
2002-09-16 14:53 ` Jens Axboe
2002-09-15 19:08 ` Linus Torvalds
2002-09-15 19:10 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-15 19:26 ` Linus Torvalds
2002-09-15 19:32 ` Daniel Jacobowitz
2002-09-15 19:48 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-16 4:59 ` Jeff Dike
2002-09-16 4:05 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-16 4:55 ` Jeff Dike
2002-09-15 19:35 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-16 4:51 ` Jeff Dike
2002-09-16 15:29 ` Oliver Xymoron
2002-09-18 0:33 ` Rusty Russell
2002-09-18 0:46 ` Linus Torvalds
2002-09-18 0:50 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-18 1:16 ` Rik van Riel
2002-09-15 13:54 ` Rogier Wolff
2002-09-15 5:01 ` Daniel Phillips
2002-09-10 16:46 ` Thunder from the hill
2002-09-10 16:56 ` Vojtech Pavlik
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