RE: What's in a name?

RE: What's in a name?

[Richard B. Johnson]

On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:

> what was it compiled with ;-)))
> 
> -- DM.
>

No doubt a gcc compiler. I built my house with a Stanley hammer
and a Skill saw. Neither Stanley nor Skill own the house (the
bank does).

There is no tradition of attributing ownership of any works
of any kind to tool makers.

Cheers,
Dick Johnson
Penguin : Linux version 2.4.18 on an i686 machine (797.90 BogoMips).
Why is the government concerned about the lunatic fringe? Think about it.

Re: What's in a name?

[Valdis.Kletnieks]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 664 bytes --]

On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:42:52 EST, "Richard B. Johnson" said:

> No doubt a gcc compiler. I built my house with a Stanley hammer
> and a Skill saw. Neither Stanley nor Skill own the house (the
> bank does).

Actually, *YOU* probably own the house.  What the bank has is a mortgage -
a promise by you that if you don't pay them, they *then* get to own the house.
Most banks try VERY hard to avoid actually owning houses.

This is actually somewhat germane, as it reflects back on the "GPL the
source after N units have been sold" business model, and code escrow, and
related thigns...
-- 
				Valdis Kletnieks
				Computer Systems Senior Engineer
				Virginia Tech


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Re: What's in a name?

[Mark Mielke]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 10:31:04PM -0500, Clayton Weaver wrote:
> The whole thing has depended on gcc from day one,
> so I see no valid objection to prominently give GNU
> credit for providing a decent compiler and thus saving
> Linus the work of inventing that before he started on
> his kernel.

Actually, Linux depended on Linus Torvalds from day one, making Linux
a *very* apt name, if the argument is that credit should be attributed
to the primary contributory to Linux's success...

The GCC license says that it can be used to compile pretty much anything
anybody wants to. Richard Stallman gave up the right to claim credit for
projects that happen to use GCC, the instance he wrote the GPL, and the
LGPL.

mark

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                       and in the darkness bind them...

                           http://mark.mielke.cc/

Re: What's in a name?

[Clayton Weaver]

The whole thing has depended on gcc from day one,
so I see no valid objection to prominently give GNU
credit for providing a decent compiler and thus saving
Linus the work of inventing that before he started on
his kernel.

But most users simply don't care what it is called,
they only care whether it works.

I would guess that the name that gets used the most
informally is "Linux", simply because that is shorter
to type in email or Usenet messages than any of the
alternatives presented in this discussion. "Linux" is
thus the de facto standard name of the system,
regardless of who invented what parts of it and
who distributes it.

(It's kind of like a beer label. It could be any
brand in the world, but it's still just "beer" if
you're in a hurry.)

Regards,

Clayton Weaver
<mailto: cgweav@email.com>

-- 
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RE: What's in a name?

[Richard B. Johnson]

On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:

> what early distribution? grep gpl and lgpl...
> 
> -- DM.
> 

Yggdrasl (or however you spell it). Most binary files have
the date of Feb 26, 1996. Many text files have the date of
July 11, 1995. I have sources, many with the dates of
Aug 31, 1992:

-rw-r--r--   1 root     bin          4502 Aug 31  1992 CHANGES
-rw-r--r--   1 root     bin          1658 Aug 31  1992 README
-rw-r--r--   1 root     bin          2029 Aug 31  1992 brac.c
-rw-r--r--   1 root     bin         11258 Aug 31  1992 ch.c
-rw-r--r--   1 root     bin          3534 Aug 31  1992 charset.c
[SNIPPED...]

In those days very few persons even heard of GPL.

These are the only gpl or GPL strings found in any binaries.

sub showGPL {
last if (/^{END OF GPL COPYRIGHT}$/) ;
last if (/^{END OF GPL CONDITIONS}$/) ;
    &showGPL unless $QUIET ;
{END OF GPL COPYRIGHT}
{END OF GPL CONDITIONS}
   To appear in SIGPLAN Conference on Programming Language Design 
  label .about.gpl3 -text "Pulic License (GPL)"


Note that "Public" is even spelled incorrectly!


Cheers,
Dick Johnson
Penguin : Linux version 2.4.18 on an i686 machine (797.90 BogoMips).
Why is the government concerned about the lunatic fringe? Think about it.

Re: What's in a name?

[Jesse Pollard]

On Thursday 09 January 2003 10:11 am, Richard B. Johnson wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Vlad@Vlad.geekizoid.com wrote:
> > And in that same period, look at Linux, and then look at Hurd.  Hurd even
> > has the advantage of using giant chunks of Linux code, but it still is
> > basically useless.
> >
> > Why should Linux be refered to as GNU/Linux because of tools, and yet
> > Hurd doesn't give credit where credit is due?  RMS has done more to hurt
> > GNU with his current stance on the matter than Microsoft ever could. 
> > He's getting annoying, too.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Scott
>
> Damn. This is getting tried and it doesn't seem to "go away".
>
> Anybody remember this Copyright notice??  Most ALL of the
> early Linux Distributions contained programs with this
> notice:
>
> /*
>  * Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
>  * All rights reserved.
>  *
>  * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms are permitted
>  * provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph are
>  * duplicated in all such forms and that any documentation,
>  * advertising materials, and other materials related to such
>  * distribution and use acknowledge that the software was developed
>  * by the University of California, Berkeley.  The name of the
>  * University may not be used to endorse or promote products derived
>  * from this software without specific prior written permission.
>  * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED ``AS IS'' AND WITHOUT ANY EXPRESS OR
>  * IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED
>  * WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTIBILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
>  */
>
> #ifndef lint
> char copyright[] =
> "@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.\n\
>  All rights reserved.\n";
> #endif /* not lint */
>
>
> ...however.  Something happened so that this code was lifted
> "whole cloth" into some later distributions that contained
> the GNU License notice. By some unknown mystery, the embeded
> copyright notice was eliminated as well. However, much of the
> code remained the same. In some little-used programs, all the
> code, including the bug, remained the same.
>
> If I had anything to do with so-called GNU, I'd keep my mouth
> shut so this wholesale appropriation of intellectual property
> was not investigated.
>
> Here is an early distribution of Linux:
>
> Script started on Thu Jan  9 10:55:02 2003
> # cd /usr/bin
> # strings * | grep Regents
> @(#) Copyright (c) 1980 Regents of the University of California.
> @(#) Copyright (c) 1980 The Regents of the University of California.
[snip]
> @(#) Copyright (c) 1991 The Regents of the University of California.
> # cd /sbin
> # strings * | grep Regents
> strings: control: No such file or directory
> strings: discard: No such file or directory
> The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
> The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
> The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
> The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
> strings: server: No such file or directory
> The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
> strings: sysinit: No such file or directory
> # exit
> Script done on Thu Jan  9 10:57:53 2003
>
>
> So much for the absolute bullshit that GNU started Linux and that
> there is somehow a GNU/Linux.  Most all of the early distributions
> used programs ported from BSD. The Linux-BSD emulation was so good,
> thanks to Linus and others, that most programs needed to only be
> recompiled.
>
> That, ladies and gentlemen, is the true history of the "Linux Operating
> System" with all of the components that RMS insists are his, actually
> coming from the University of California, Berkeley.
>
> Don't be bambozzled by the persons who will re-write history to glorify
> their accomplishments. Saying something over-and-over again doesn't
> make it true. Facts stand alone. They only need to be noted. Bullshit
> needs repeating.

I seem to remember that there was also a request from the University of 
California to remove that code too. That was when they started charging
for the BSD distribution, and before the NetBSD got out, which also
had to rewrite/replace the code. Guess what got used...

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesse I Pollard, II
Email: pollard@navo.hpc.mil

Any opinions expressed are solely my own.

Re: What's in a name?

[venom]

Yes, for binaries most of the time we even did not need to use the
/usr/lib/libbsd.a compatibility library
and the /usr/include/bsd/*.h compatibility includes
(just ash was needing that) coming with libc4 and libc5 distribution for
compatibility pursues.

Then also the boot system was BSD like, and now we see this prosecuted and
evolved in Slackware.

But please, let's stop this thread.

We talked about GPLed modules and binary only modules,
and none even considered implication brought
by the new module interface with run queue, that is an important
point in this discussion.

We talked just about names, names, names, and again names.
I do not expect in every thread on lkml to see some good contribution
(not just code, but concept, discussions, and so on),
but this specific one is just like
"the wall I build with my belief is higher than your".

And the few smart mails ususally got ignored.
There is no interess in this for me.

Luigi



On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Richard B. Johnson wrote:

> Most all of the early distributions
> used programs ported from BSD. The Linux-BSD emulation was so good,
> thanks to Linus and others, that most programs needed to only be
> recompiled.
>
> That, ladies and gentlemen, is the true history of the "Linux Operating
> System" with all of the components that RMS insists are his, actually
> coming from the University of California, Berkeley.
>

Re: What's in a name?

[Richard B. Johnson]

On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Vlad@Vlad.geekizoid.com wrote:

> And in that same period, look at Linux, and then look at Hurd.  Hurd even
> has the advantage of using giant chunks of Linux code, but it still is
> basically useless.
> 
> Why should Linux be refered to as GNU/Linux because of tools, and yet Hurd
> doesn't give credit where credit is due?  RMS has done more to hurt GNU with
> his current stance on the matter than Microsoft ever could.  He's getting
> annoying, too.
> 
> Regards,
> Scott
> 

Damn. This is getting tried and it doesn't seem to "go away".

Anybody remember this Copyright notice??  Most ALL of the
early Linux Distributions contained programs with this
notice:

/*
 * Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
 * All rights reserved.
 *
 * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms are permitted
 * provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph are
 * duplicated in all such forms and that any documentation,
 * advertising materials, and other materials related to such
 * distribution and use acknowledge that the software was developed
 * by the University of California, Berkeley.  The name of the
 * University may not be used to endorse or promote products derived
 * from this software without specific prior written permission.
 * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED ``AS IS'' AND WITHOUT ANY EXPRESS OR
 * IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED
 * WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTIBILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
 */

#ifndef lint
char copyright[] =
"@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.\n\
 All rights reserved.\n";
#endif /* not lint */


...however.  Something happened so that this code was lifted
"whole cloth" into some later distributions that contained
the GNU License notice. By some unknown mystery, the embeded
copyright notice was eliminated as well. However, much of the
code remained the same. In some little-used programs, all the
code, including the bug, remained the same.

If I had anything to do with so-called GNU, I'd keep my mouth
shut so this wholesale appropriation of intellectual property
was not investigated.

Here is an early distribution of Linux:

Script started on Thu Jan  9 10:55:02 2003
# cd /usr/bin
# strings * | grep Regents
@(#) Copyright (c) 1980 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1980 The Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1990 The Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1980 Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1989 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1990 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1990 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1985, 1989 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1989 The Regents of the University of California.
Based on BSD gprof, copyright 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1989 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1986 Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983, 1989 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995 by NCEMRSoft and Copyright (c) 1985, 1989 Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1985,1989 Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1985, 1989 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1989 The Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983, 1990 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1993 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1987, 1992 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983, 1990 The Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983, 1990 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1988 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1980 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1991 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1988, 1990 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1980, 1991 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1989 The Regents of the University of California.
# strings * | grep Regents
@(#) Copyright (c) 1980 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1980 The Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1990 The Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1980 Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1989 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1990 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1990 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1985, 1989 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1989 The Regents of the University of California.
Based on BSD gprof, copyright 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1989 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1986 Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983, 1989 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995 by NCEMRSoft and Copyright (c) 1985, 1989 Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1985,1989 Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1985, 1989 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1989 The Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983, 1990 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1993 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1987, 1992 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983, 1990 The Regents of the University of California.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983, 1990 The Regents of the University 
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1980 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1989 The Regents of the University of California.
# cd /bin
# strings * | grep Regents
@(#) Copyright (c) 1991 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1991 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1980, 1987, 1988 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1980 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1980 Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1980 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1989 The Regents of the University of California.
@(#) Copyright (c) 1991 The Regents of the University of California.
# cd /sbin
# strings * | grep Regents
strings: control: No such file or directory
strings: discard: No such file or directory
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
strings: server: No such file or directory
The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
strings: sysinit: No such file or directory
# exit
Script done on Thu Jan  9 10:57:53 2003


So much for the absolute bullshit that GNU started Linux and that
there is somehow a GNU/Linux.  Most all of the early distributions
used programs ported from BSD. The Linux-BSD emulation was so good,
thanks to Linus and others, that most programs needed to only be
recompiled.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the true history of the "Linux Operating
System" with all of the components that RMS insists are his, actually
coming from the University of California, Berkeley.

Don't be bambozzled by the persons who will re-write history to glorify
their accomplishments. Saying something over-and-over again doesn't
make it true. Facts stand alone. They only need to be noted. Bullshit
needs repeating.

Cheers,
Dick Johnson
Penguin : Linux version 2.4.18 on an i686 machine (797.90 BogoMips).
Why is the government concerned about the lunatic fringe? Think about it.

What's in a name?

[Vlad@Vlad.geekizoid.com]

And in that same period, look at Linux, and then look at Hurd.  Hurd even
has the advantage of using giant chunks of Linux code, but it still is
basically useless.

Why should Linux be refered to as GNU/Linux because of tools, and yet Hurd
doesn't give credit where credit is due?  RMS has done more to hurt GNU with
his current stance on the matter than Microsoft ever could.  He's getting
annoying, too.

Regards,
Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: John Alvord [mailto:jalvo@mbay.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 2:58 AM
To: vlad@geekizoid.com
Cc: rms@gnu.org; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Nvidia and its choice to read the GPL "differently"


Try to imagine the last 12 years of Linux without

gcc
binutils
unix programs such as ls, cp, rm, etc

I personally believe the current state of the Linux kernel would have
been impossible to achieve (at this time) without the above tools.

The Linux kernel development has stood on the shoulders of the GNU
effort the whole time.

Whether the result should be labeled as GNU/Linux is semantics - what
is the meaning of "operating system".  And it is redundant... after
all there is no Linux without GNU, so why force unnecessary
information on terms. If there was an ATT/Linux and an Intel/Linux,
having a GNU/Linux would make some sense... but that is not the way it
is. GNU/Linux is singular, so Linux makes a reasonable contraction.

Distributor marketting wants a neat snapy name that is easy to
remember. Linux is close enough to unix to merge meanings a bit.
People who read about Linus Torvalds get the Linus/Linux play on
words.

Another puzzling aspect to me is that GNU really goes beyond what I
think of as an operating system. I have a suite of GNU tools installed
on a Windows NT machine and I use make, ls, cp, mv all day. So I am
using GNU on a foreign operating system... or does my usage needs to
be labeled as GNU/Windows NT?

john alvord

On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 20:26:09 -0600, "Vlad@Vlad.geekizoid.com"
<vlad@vlad.geekizoid.com> wrote:

>Do you actually buy your own bullshit here?  If so, that's sad.  I used to
>respect you.  I'd like to see you put your money where your mouth is -
PROVE
>that GNU (not just people who have release GPL'd software) contributed most
>of the work to say Slackware, or Debian, or Red Hat.
>
>Face it - you're full of it.  You're not fooling anyone either.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org
>[mailto:linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Richard Stallman
>Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:00 AM
>To: lm@bitmover.com
>Cc: lm@bitmover.com; acahalan@cs.uml.edu; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
>Subject: Re: Nvidia and its choice to read the GPL "differently"
>
>
>    Great.  So not only is there no legal need to cite GNU in the Linux
>    name, there is no ethical obligation either.
>
>When you take part of my statement, stretch it, interpret it based on
>assumptions you know I disagree with, and present the result as
>something I said, that doesn't prove anything.  It is childish.
>
>There is no ethical obligation to mention secondary contributions
>incorporated in a large project.  There ethical obligation is to cite
>the main developer.  In the GNU/Linux system, the GNU Project is the
>principal contributor; the system is more GNU than anything else,
>and we started it.