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From: Matthias Andree <matthias.andree@gmx.de>
To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Linux does not care for data integrity (was: Disk write cache)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:02:03 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20050516110203.GA13387@merlin.emma.line.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <42877C1B.2030008@pobox.com>

On Sun, 15 May 2005, Jeff Garzik wrote:

> The ability of a filesystem or fsync(2) to cause a [FLUSH|SYNC] CACHE 
> command to be generated has only been present in the most recent 2.6.x 
> kernels.  See the "write barrier" stuff that people have been discussing.

To make this explicit and unmistakable, Linux should be ashamed of
having put its users' data at risk for as long as it has existed, and
looking at how often I still get "barrier synch failed", it still does
with the kernel SUSE Linux 9.3 shipped with.

This came up several times, from database and mailserver authors, but
found no reasonable solution to date.

The documentation which file systems request cache flush for fsync, and
which device drivers (SCSI as ATA) as well as chipset adaptors pass this
down properly, is still missing. I've asked for help with such a list
several times over the recent years, I've offered my help in setting up
and maintaining the list when sent the raw information, but no-one cared
to provide this kind of information.

I will not try again, it's no good, kernel hackers with a handful of
exceptions, don't care.

If they think they do in spite of my statement, they'll have to prove
their point by growing up and documenting which combinations of
(file system, mount options, block dev driver, hardware/chip driver)
barrier synch is 100% reliable, which file systems, chipset drivers,
block drivers, hardware drivers, are missing links in the chain -- and
request that the kernel switches off the drive's write cache in all
drives unless the whole fsync() stuff works (unless defeated by a
"benchmark" kernel boot parameter).

Until then, my applications will have to recommend that users switch off
drive caches for consistency.

P. S.: Yes, the subject and this mail are provoking and exaggerated a
       tiny bit. I feel that's needed to raise the necessary motivation
       to finally address this issue after a decade or so.

-- 
Matthias Andree

  parent reply	other threads:[~2005-05-16 11:02 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 142+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2005-05-13  5:51 Hyper-Threading Vulnerability Gabor MICSKO
2005-05-13 12:47 ` Barry K. Nathan
2005-05-13 14:10   ` Jeff Garzik
2005-05-13 14:23     ` Daniel Jacobowitz
2005-05-13 14:32       ` Jeff Garzik
2005-05-13 17:13         ` Andy Isaacson
2005-05-13 18:30           ` Vadim Lobanov
2005-05-13 19:02             ` Andy Isaacson
2005-05-15  9:31               ` Adrian Bunk
2005-05-13 17:14         ` Gabor MICSKO
2005-05-13 20:23     ` Barry K. Nathan
2005-05-13 18:03 ` Andi Kleen
2005-05-13 18:34   ` Eric Rannaud
2005-05-13 18:35   ` Alan Cox
2005-05-13 18:49     ` Scott Robert Ladd
2005-05-13 19:08       ` Andi Kleen
2005-05-13 19:36       ` Grant Coady
2005-05-16 17:00       ` Linus Torvalds
2005-05-16 12:37         ` Tommy Reynolds
2005-05-18 19:07     ` Bill Davidsen
2005-05-13 18:38   ` Richard F. Rebel
2005-05-13 19:05     ` Andi Kleen
2005-05-13 21:26       ` Andy Isaacson
2005-05-13 21:59         ` Matt Mackall
2005-05-13 22:47           ` Alan Cox
2005-05-13 23:00             ` Lee Revell
2005-05-13 23:27               ` Dave Jones
2005-05-13 23:38                 ` Lee Revell
2005-05-13 23:44                   ` Dave Jones
2005-05-14  7:37                     ` Lee Revell
2005-05-14 15:33                       ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-05-15  1:07                         ` Christer Weinigel
2005-05-15  9:48                         ` Andi Kleen
2005-05-14 15:23                   ` Alan Cox
2005-05-14 15:45                     ` andrea
2005-05-15 13:38                       ` Mikulas Patocka
2005-05-16  7:06                         ` andrea
2005-05-14 16:30                     ` Lee Revell
2005-05-14 16:44                       ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-05-14 17:56                         ` Lee Revell
2005-05-14 18:01                           ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-05-14 19:21                             ` Lee Revell
2005-05-14 19:48                               ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-05-14 23:40                                 ` Lee Revell
2005-05-15  7:30                                   ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-05-15 20:41                                     ` Alan Cox
2005-05-15 20:48                                       ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-05-15 21:10                                         ` Lee Revell
2005-05-15 22:55                                           ` Dave Jones
2005-05-15 23:10                                             ` Lee Revell
2005-05-16  7:25                                               ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-05-15  9:37                                   ` Andi Kleen
2005-05-15  3:19                                 ` dean gaudet
2005-05-15 10:01                             ` Andi Kleen
2005-05-15 10:23                               ` 2.6.4 timer and helper functions kernel
2005-05-19  0:38                                 ` George Anzinger
2005-05-15  9:33                           ` Hyper-Threading Vulnerability Adrian Bunk
2005-05-14 17:04                       ` Jindrich Makovicka
2005-05-14 18:27                         ` Lee Revell
2005-05-15  9:58                       ` Andi Kleen
2005-05-14  0:39         ` dean gaudet
2005-05-16 13:41           ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-05-15  9:43         ` Andi Kleen
2005-05-15 18:42           ` David Schwartz
2005-05-15 18:56             ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2005-05-16  7:10           ` Eric W. Biederman
2005-05-16 11:04             ` Andi Kleen
2005-05-16 19:14               ` Eric W. Biederman
2005-05-16 20:05                 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-05-15 14:00         ` Mikulas Patocka
2005-05-15 14:26         ` Andi Kleen
2005-05-13 23:32       ` Paul Jakma
2005-05-14 16:29         ` Paul Jakma
2005-05-13 19:14     ` Jim Crilly
2005-05-13 20:18       ` Barry K. Nathan
2005-05-13 23:14         ` Jim Crilly
2005-05-13 19:16   ` Diego Calleja
2005-05-13 19:42     ` Frank Denis (Jedi/Sector One)
2005-05-15  9:54     ` Andi Kleen
2005-05-15 13:51       ` Mikulas Patocka
2005-05-15 14:12         ` Andi Kleen
2005-05-15 14:21           ` Mikulas Patocka
2005-05-15 14:52           ` Tomasz Torcz
2005-05-15 15:00             ` Disk write cache (Was: Hyper-Threading Vulnerability) Mikulas Patocka
2005-05-15 15:21               ` Gene Heskett
2005-05-15 15:29                 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-05-15 16:27                   ` Disk write cache Kenichi Okuyama
2005-05-15 16:43                     ` Jeff Garzik
2005-05-15 16:50                       ` Kyle Moffett
2005-05-15 16:56                       ` Andi Kleen
2005-05-15 20:44                         ` Andrew Morton
2005-05-15 23:31                           ` Cache based insecurity/CPU cache/Disk Cache Tradeoffs Brian O'Mahoney
2005-05-15 16:58                       ` Disk write cache Mikulas Patocka
2005-05-15 17:20                       ` Kenichi Okuyama
2005-05-16 11:02                       ` Matthias Andree [this message]
2005-05-16 11:12                         ` Linux does not care for data integrity (was: Disk write cache) Arjan van de Ven
2005-05-16 11:29                           ` Matthias Andree
2005-05-16 14:02                             ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-05-16 14:48                               ` Matthias Andree
2005-05-16 15:06                                 ` Alan Cox
2005-05-16 15:40                                   ` Matthias Andree
2005-05-16 18:04                                     ` Alan Cox
2005-05-16 19:11                                       ` Linux does not care for data integrity Florian Weimer
2005-05-29 21:02                                   ` Linux does not care for data integrity (was: Disk write cache) Greg Stark
2005-05-29 21:16                                     ` Matthias Andree
2005-05-30  6:04                                       ` Greg Stark
2005-05-30  8:21                                         ` Matthias Andree
2005-06-01 19:02                                       ` Linux does not care for data integrity Bill Davidsen
2005-06-01 22:02                                         ` Matthias Andree
2005-06-02  0:12                                           ` Bill Davidsen
2005-06-02  0:36                                         ` Jeff Garzik
2005-06-02  1:37                                           ` Bill Davidsen
2005-06-02  1:54                                             ` Jeff Garzik
2005-06-02  8:53                                         ` Helge Hafting
2005-06-02 12:00                                           ` Bill Davidsen
2005-06-02 13:33                                             ` Lennart Sorensen
2005-06-04 13:37                                               ` Bill Davidsen
2005-06-04 15:31                                                 ` Bernd Eckenfels
2005-05-16 14:57                           ` Linux does not care for data integrity (was: Disk write cache) Alan Cox
2005-05-16 13:48                         ` Linux does not care for data integrity Mark Lord
2005-05-16 14:59                           ` Matthias Andree
2005-05-16  1:56                   ` Disk write cache (Was: Hyper-Threading Vulnerability) Gene Heskett
2005-05-16  2:11                     ` Jeff Garzik
2005-05-16  2:24                     ` Mikulas Patocka
2005-05-16  3:05                       ` Gene Heskett
2005-05-16  2:32                     ` Mark Lord
2005-05-16  3:08                       ` Gene Heskett
2005-05-16 13:44                         ` Mark Lord
2005-05-18  4:03                       ` Eric D. Mudama
2005-05-15 16:24                 ` Mikulas Patocka
2005-05-16 11:18                   ` Matthias Andree
2005-05-16 14:33                     ` Jeff Garzik
2005-05-16 15:26                       ` Richard B. Johnson
2005-05-16 16:00                         ` [OT] drive behavior on power-off (was: Disk write cache) Matthias Andree
2005-05-16 18:11                       ` Disk write cache (Was: Hyper-Threading Vulnerability) Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-05-16 14:54                     ` Alan Cox
2005-05-17 13:15                       ` Bill Davidsen
2005-05-17 21:41                         ` Kyle Moffett
2005-05-18  4:06                     ` Eric D. Mudama
2005-05-15 21:38                 ` Tomasz Torcz
2005-05-16 14:50               ` Alan Cox
2005-05-15 15:00             ` Hyper-Threading Vulnerability Arjan van de Ven

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