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From: Theodore Tso <tytso@mit.edu>
To: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org>
Cc: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
	Helge Hafting <helge.hafting@aitel.hist.no>,
	tglx@linutronix.de, Neil Brown <neilb@suse.de>,
	Michiel de Boer <x@rebelhomicide.demon.nl>,
	James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@SteelEye.com>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: GPLv3 Position Statement
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:25:53 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20060929212553.GB11017@thunk.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0609291131300.3952@g5.osdl.org>

One of the things which I'm fond of pointing out is that all of the
freedoms people would have to hack MacOS, especially MacOS 9, where
all of the various "Mac Extensions" which changed and extended the UI
of the Macintosh, would have completely disappeared if the FSF's idea
of "derived works" was in fact the law of the land.  That's because
(a) Apple hated the fact that people dared to think that the UI has
handed down on the stone tablets inscribed by Steve Jobs could be
improved upon, and (b) the way those changes were made by patching
jump tables so that code to extend the UI could be patched into the OS
--- in effect, a dynamic link.

Now, because Apple hated the fact that people dared to think they
could improve on Apple's UI design, they frequently changed the jump
table interfaces, forcing the people who wrote the "Mac Hacks" to
follow a rapidly changing code stream --- much like what the Linux
kernel does with its device driver interfaces.  But Apple has *never*
said that just because you dynamically link with MacOS, that instantly
makes your MacOS a derived work, and so therefore as the copyright
holder of MacOS, Apple could therefore have the right to control how,
or even whether or not the Macintosh Extensions could ever exist.

Thanks goodness, no sane court has ever ruled that the various
Macintosh Extensions were a derived work, just because they lived in
the same address space as MacOS and dynamically linked with MacOS, and
in fact were **designed** only to work with MacOS, and very often used
header files shipped by the Macintosh Programmer's Workbench.

So don't be too quick to wish that the courts will use the FSF's pet
definition of what derived works mean ---- you may find that in the
end, you end up losing far more freedoms than you expect.

						- Ted

  parent reply	other threads:[~2006-09-29 21:26 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 235+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2006-09-22 16:15 GPLv3 Position Statement James Bottomley
2006-09-22 16:16 ` James Bottomley
2006-09-22 17:49 ` The GPL: No shelter for the Linux kernel? Adrian Bunk
2006-09-22 18:00   ` Greg KH
2006-09-22 18:01   ` Manu Abraham
2006-09-22 20:04   ` David Schwartz
2006-09-22 21:25     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-22 21:44     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-23  0:11       ` David Schwartz
2006-09-23  1:36         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-23  7:28         ` Paul Jackson
2006-09-23  8:05       ` Manu Abraham
2006-09-23 15:32       ` Oleg Verych
     [not found]         ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.0609230941530.4388@g5.osdl.org>
2006-09-23 21:04           ` Forwarded message from Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> Oleg Verych
2006-09-27  1:19             ` The GPL: No shelter for the Linux kernel? Oleg Verych
2006-09-23  8:10     ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-09-23 17:38       ` David Schwartz
2006-09-23 18:00       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-23 18:14         ` Petr Baudis
2006-09-24  7:53           ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-09-24 16:34             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-25  5:59               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-09-25 15:14                 ` Linus Torvalds
     [not found] ` <200609221359.39519.gene.heskett@verizon.net>
2006-09-22 18:08   ` GPLv3 Position Statement James Bottomley
2006-09-22 18:30     ` Gene Heskett
2006-09-22 18:34       ` Jeff Garzik
2006-09-22 18:52         ` Gene Heskett
2006-09-22 19:05       ` Alan Cox
2006-09-22 18:54         ` Gene Heskett
2006-09-25  6:33       ` Marc Perkel
2006-09-22 20:42 ` Jeff Garzik
2006-09-23 11:38 ` Florian Weimer
2006-09-25  2:44 ` An Ode to GPLv2 (was Re: GPLv3 Position Statement) Linus Torvalds
2006-09-25  4:40   ` Willy Tarreau
2006-09-25 12:00     ` Arjan van de Ven
2006-09-25 13:07       ` Willy Tarreau
2006-09-28  0:12         ` H. Peter Anvin
2006-09-25  8:53 ` GPLv3 Position Statement Michiel de Boer
2006-09-25  9:06   ` Russell King
2006-09-25 10:51   ` Neil Brown
2006-09-25 11:31     ` Alan Cox
2006-09-25 16:10       ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-09-29 10:15         ` Helge Hafting
2006-09-29 11:07           ` Alan Cox
2006-09-29 14:02           ` Stephen Clark
2006-09-29 16:51           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-29 17:47             ` Alan Cox
2006-09-29 17:49               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-29 18:17                 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-29 18:26                 ` Alan Cox
2006-09-29 18:27                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-29 18:40                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-29 19:59                       ` alan
2006-09-29 20:06                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-29 20:21                           ` alan
2006-09-29 20:32                             ` alan
2006-09-29 23:12                               ` Gene Heskett
2006-09-29 23:25                                 ` Randy Dunlap
2006-09-29 23:53                                   ` Gene Heskett
2006-09-30  0:31                                     ` Vadim Lobanov
2006-09-30  3:36                                       ` Gene Heskett
2006-09-30  4:37                                         ` Vadim Lobanov
2006-09-30  4:54                                           ` Randy Dunlap
2006-09-30  6:10                                             ` Vadim Lobanov
2006-09-29 21:11                             ` Chris Smith
2006-09-29 21:33                               ` alan
2006-09-29 20:51                           ` alan
2006-09-29 21:25                       ` Theodore Tso [this message]
2006-09-29 21:29                       ` Alan Cox
2006-10-02  8:46             ` Helge Hafting
2006-09-29 19:43           ` jdow
2006-09-30 18:38           ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-09-30 20:49             ` Alan Cox
2006-09-30 20:38               ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-09-25 14:27     ` Lee Revell
2006-09-25 19:05       ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-09-25 20:58       ` Gene Heskett
2006-09-25 22:10         ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2006-09-26 21:32       ` Oleg Verych
2006-09-25 19:46     ` Jeff Garzik
2006-09-25 21:10       ` Gene Heskett
2006-09-25 11:11   ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-09-25 14:12   ` James Bottomley
2006-09-25 16:50   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-25 17:26   ` James Bottomley
2006-09-25 15:30 ` Xavier Bestel
2006-09-27  1:11 ` Sergey Panov
2006-09-27  5:55   ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-09-27  7:36     ` Sergey Panov
2006-09-27  8:58       ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-09-27 12:19         ` Alan Cox
2006-09-27 17:28           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-27 18:37             ` Chase Venters
2006-09-27 19:11               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-29 12:42                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-09-27 22:58               ` Theodore Tso
2006-09-27 23:16                 ` Chase Venters
2006-09-28  0:03                   ` Neil Brown
2006-09-28  0:08                     ` David Miller
2006-09-28  0:18                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-28  0:54                     ` Patrick McFarland
2006-09-28  3:15                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-28  3:47                         ` Sergey Panov
2006-09-28  4:13                           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-28  5:05                             ` Sergey Panov
2006-09-28  4:39                           ` Chase Venters
2006-09-28  5:13                             ` Trond Myklebust
2006-09-28  5:15                             ` Jeff Garzik
2006-09-28  5:27                               ` Sergey Panov
2006-09-28  5:34                                 ` Jeff Garzik
2006-09-28  7:30                                 ` Al Viro
2006-09-28 13:55                             ` Lennart Sorensen
2006-09-28 14:19                               ` DervishD
2006-09-28 14:40                                 ` Jörn Engel
2006-09-28 14:59                                   ` DervishD
2006-09-28 15:04                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-28 15:20                                     ` Jörn Engel
2006-09-28 15:31                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-28 15:46                                       ` Björn Steinbrink
2006-09-28 15:24                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-29  0:26                                       ` Neil Brown
2006-09-29  6:22                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-29  1:34                                     ` jdow
2006-09-29  6:08                                     ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-09-29  7:07                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-29  7:18                                       ` David Schwartz
2006-09-29  2:29                                   ` David Schwartz
2006-09-29  2:45                                     ` Neil Brown
2006-09-29  3:05                                       ` Björn Steinbrink
2006-09-29  3:31                                         ` David Schwartz
2006-09-29  5:37                                           ` Björn Steinbrink
2006-09-29  7:18                                       ` David Schwartz
     [not found]                                     ` <20060928225008.ded4fa2c.seanlkml@sympatico.ca>
2006-09-29  2:50                                       ` Sean
2006-09-29  7:18                                         ` David Schwartz
2006-10-02  8:55                                         ` Maybe it's time to fork the GPL License - create the Linux license? Marc Perkel
2006-10-02  9:14                                           ` Jesper Juhl
2006-10-02  9:23                                             ` Marc Perkel
2006-10-03 10:31                                             ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-10-03 15:34                                               ` Marc Perkel
2006-10-02  9:18                                           ` Dumitru Ciobarcianu
2006-10-02  9:25                                           ` Patrick McFarland
2006-10-02 18:26                                             ` James Dickens
2006-10-03 20:59                                           ` Ivan Dimitrov
2006-10-03 21:00                                             ` Chase Venters
2006-10-03 21:17                                             ` It's not GNU/Linux - it's jusy LINUX Marc Perkel
2006-10-03 21:41                                               ` Neil Brown
2006-10-04 20:09                                                 ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-10-04 20:53                                                   ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2006-10-03 21:41                                               ` Adam Henley
2006-10-03 21:47                                                 ` Marc Perkel
2006-10-03 21:58                                                   ` Chase Venters
2006-10-03 22:00                                                   ` Hua Zhong
2006-10-04  1:17                                                     ` Patrick Draper
2006-10-04  2:06                                                       ` Patrick McFarland
2006-10-04 15:16                                                         ` Patrick Draper
2006-10-03 22:10                                                   ` M4y3c0
2006-10-03 22:02                                           ` Maybe it's time to fork the GPL License - create the Linux license? Daniel Barkalow
2006-09-28 14:51                                 ` GPLv3 Position Statement Simon Oosthoek
2006-09-28 15:07                                   ` DervishD
2006-09-28 15:38                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-28 18:34                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-28 17:16                         ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2006-09-28 18:59                           ` Segher Boessenkool
2006-09-28 19:34                             ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2006-09-28 20:01                               ` Oleg Verych
2006-09-28 23:12                                 ` Gene Heskett
2006-09-29  8:04                           ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-09-28  1:35                     ` Al Viro
2006-09-28  3:13                       ` Sergey Panov
2006-09-28  3:36                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-28  1:53                     ` Alan Cox
2006-09-28  9:41                     ` Jörn Engel
2006-09-28  9:55                       ` Jeff Garzik
2006-09-28 14:45                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-28 15:19                           ` Alan Cox
2006-09-28 14:40                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-28  2:34                   ` Gene Heskett
2006-09-28  8:04             ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-09-28 13:50               ` Christer Weinigel
2006-09-28 20:43               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-27 18:01         ` Theodore Tso
2006-09-27 12:32     ` Theodore Tso
2006-09-27 21:05       ` David Schwartz
2006-09-29 12:47       ` Pavel Machek
2006-09-27 17:00     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-28  8:18       ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-09-28  9:39       ` Samuel Tardieu
2006-09-27 16:08   ` Greg KH
2006-09-25 10:02 tridge
2006-09-27  9:43 Nicolas Mailhot
2006-09-27 17:51 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-27 20:34   ` Krzysztof Halasa
2006-09-27 20:41     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-27 21:01       ` Krzysztof Halasa
2006-09-27 23:01       ` Alan Cox
2006-09-27 23:04         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-27 23:07         ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-09-28  7:36         ` Andi Kleen
2006-09-29  3:01 James Bottomley
2006-09-29  4:40 ` Neil Brown
2006-09-29  6:56   ` James Bottomley
2006-09-29  7:48     ` tridge
2006-09-29  9:37       ` David Schwartz
2006-09-29 10:08       ` Samuel Tardieu
2006-09-29 12:59       ` Alan Cox
2006-09-29 14:36       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-30 15:32       ` Andrea Arcangeli
2006-09-30 16:59         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-09-30 22:16         ` tridge
2006-09-29 11:59     ` Sanjoy Mahajan
2006-09-29 14:54     ` Horst H. von Brand
2006-09-29 21:46       ` tridge
     [not found]         ` <20060929180323.d2c0d2ee.seanlkml@sympatico.ca>
2006-09-29 22:03           ` Sean
2006-09-29 22:20         ` Jeff Garzik
2006-09-29  5:51 ` tridge
2006-09-29  7:31   ` James Bottomley
2006-09-29 12:08     ` Sanjoy Mahajan
2006-09-29 20:50       ` James Bottomley
2006-09-29  7:31   ` James Bottomley
2006-09-29  8:09     ` tridge
2006-09-29 20:28       ` James Bottomley
2006-09-29  8:53     ` tridge
2006-09-29  9:37       ` Jeff Garzik
2006-09-29  9:52         ` tridge
2006-09-30  0:56           ` James Bottomley
2006-09-29 19:50       ` James Bottomley
2006-09-30  7:05         ` tridge
2006-09-30 15:06           ` James Bottomley
2006-10-01  6:28             ` tridge
2006-10-01 15:45               ` James Bottomley
2006-10-01 16:48                 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-09-30 21:11         ` David Lang
2006-09-30 22:29           ` Michiel de Boer
2006-10-01  6:52           ` tridge
2006-09-29  7:32   ` David Woodhouse

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