From: Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net>
To: Eric Biggers <ebiggers@kernel.org>
Cc: Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
Ard Biesheuvel <ard.biesheuvel@linaro.org>,
"Jason A. Donenfeld" <Jason@zx2c4.com>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
"<netdev@vger.kernel.org>" <netdev@vger.kernel.org>,
"David S. Miller" <davem@davemloft.net>,
Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>,
Samuel Neves <sneves@dei.uc.pt>,
Jean-Philippe Aumasson <jeanphilippe.aumasson@gmail.com>,
"open list:HARDWARE RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR CORE"
<linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH net-next v3 02/17] zinc: introduce minimal cryptography library
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 15:16:28 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <49BAF465-B3DC-4155-BFF9-DB6C386C1878@amacapital.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20180911214737.GA81235@gmail.com>
> On Sep 11, 2018, at 2:47 PM, Eric Biggers <ebiggers@kernel.org> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 04:56:24PM +0200, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 12:08:56PM +0200, Ard Biesheuvel wrote:
>>>> As Zinc is simply library code, its config options are un-menued, with
>>>> the exception of CONFIG_ZINC_DEBUG, which enables various selftests and
>>>> BUG_ONs.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In spite of the wall of text, you fail to point out exactly why the
>>> existing AEAD API in unsuitable, and why fixing it is not an option.
>>>
>>> As I pointed out in a previous version, I don't think we need a
>>> separate crypto API/library in the kernel, and I don't think you have
>>> convinced anyone else yet either.
>>
>> Um, then why do people keep sprinkling new crypto/hash code all around
>> the kernel tree? It's because what we have as a crypto api is complex
>> and is hard to use for many in-kernel users.
>>
>> Something like this new interface (zinc) is a much "saner" api for
>> writing kernel code that has to interact with crypto/hash primitives.
>>
>> I see no reason why the existing crypto code can be redone to use the
>> zinc crypto primitives over time, making there only be one main location
>> for the crypto algorithms. But to do it the other way around is pretty
>> much impossible given the complexities in the existing api that has been
>> created over time.
>>
>> Not to say that the existing api is not a viable one, but ugh, really?
>> You have to admit it is a pain to try to use in any "normal" type of
>> "here's a bytestream, go give me a hash" type of method, right?
>>
>> Also there is the added benefit that the crypto primitives here have
>> been audited by a number of people (so Jason stated), and they are
>> written in a way that the crypto community can more easily interact and
>> contribute to. Which is _way_ better than what we have today.
>>
>> So this gets my "stamp of approval" for whatever it is worth :)
>>
>
> I think you mean you see no reason why it *cannot* be converted? The
> conversions definitely *should* be done, just like how some of the existing
> crypto API algorithms like SHA-256 already wrap implementations in lib/. In my
> view, lib/zinc/ isn't fundamentally different from what we already have for some
> algorithms. So it's misguided to design/present it as some novel thing, which
> unfortunately this patchset still does to a large extent. (The actual new thing
> is how architecture-specific implementations are handled.)
>
> Of course, the real problem is that even after multiple revisions of this
> patchset, there's still no actual conversions of the existing crypto API
> algorithms over to use the new implementations. "Zinc" is still completely
> separate from the existing crypto API.
>
Jason, can you do one of these conversions as an example?
> So, it's not yet clear that the conversions will actually work out without
> problems that would require changes in "Zinc". I don't think it makes sense to
> merge all this stuff without doing the conversions, or at the very least
> demonstrating how they will be done.
>
> In particular, in its current form "Zinc" is useless for anyone that needs the
> existing crypto API. For example, for HPolyC,
> (https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/8/6/857), I need to make improvements to ChaCha and
> Poly1305 in the existing crypto API, e.g. to add support for XChaCha and
> NEON-accelerated Poly1305. Having completely separate ChaCha and Poly1305
> implementations in Zinc doesn't help at all. If anything, it makes things
> harder because people will have to review/maintain both sets of implementations;
> and when trying to make the improvements I need, I'll find myself in the middle
> of a holy war between two competing camps who each have their own opinion about
> The Right Way To Do Crypto, and their own crypto implementations and APIs in the
> kernel.
>
> - Eric
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2018-09-11 22:16 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 103+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2018-09-11 1:08 [PATCH net-next v3 00/17] WireGuard: Secure Network Tunnel Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 01/17] asm: simd context helper API Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-12 6:14 ` Kevin Easton
2018-09-12 18:10 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-13 5:03 ` Kevin Easton
2018-09-13 13:52 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-13 13:53 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-15 19:58 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-09-15 20:01 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-17 13:14 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 02/17] zinc: introduce minimal cryptography library Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 10:08 ` Ard Biesheuvel
2018-09-11 14:56 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2018-09-11 21:47 ` Eric Biggers
2018-09-11 22:02 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 23:30 ` Andrew Lunn
2018-09-11 23:57 ` David Miller
2018-09-12 0:02 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-17 4:09 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-09-17 4:45 ` David Miller
2018-09-17 14:55 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-09-17 14:59 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-17 5:07 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-17 14:53 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-09-17 14:59 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-17 16:24 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-18 16:06 ` Ard Biesheuvel
2018-09-18 16:45 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-17 5:26 ` Ard Biesheuvel
2018-09-17 14:51 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-09-17 15:28 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-17 16:06 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-09-17 16:17 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-17 15:31 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-17 16:07 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-09-17 16:16 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-17 16:18 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-09-18 0:56 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-17 15:52 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-18 4:21 ` Herbert Xu
2018-09-18 4:26 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-18 18:53 ` Ard Biesheuvel
2018-09-18 20:36 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-19 16:55 ` Ard Biesheuvel
2018-09-11 22:16 ` Andy Lutomirski [this message]
2018-09-11 22:18 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 23:01 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-09-12 0:01 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-12 4:29 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 21:22 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-12 22:56 ` Ard Biesheuvel
2018-09-12 23:45 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-09-13 5:41 ` Ard Biesheuvel
2018-09-13 14:32 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-13 15:42 ` Ard Biesheuvel
2018-09-13 15:58 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-14 6:15 ` Ard Biesheuvel
2018-09-14 9:53 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-13 6:39 ` Milan Broz
2018-09-13 14:34 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-13 15:26 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-09-13 14:18 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-13 15:07 ` Ard Biesheuvel
2018-09-13 14:15 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-13 15:04 ` Ard Biesheuvel
2018-09-13 15:45 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 22:08 ` Eric Biggers
2018-09-12 18:16 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-12 18:19 ` Ard Biesheuvel
2018-09-12 18:34 ` Eric Biggers
2018-09-14 6:21 ` Ard Biesheuvel
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 03/17] zinc: ChaCha20 generic C implementation Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 04/17] zinc: ChaCha20 ARM and ARM64 implementations Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 05/17] zinc: ChaCha20 x86_64 implementation Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 8:22 ` Thomas Gleixner
2018-09-11 9:00 ` Samuel Neves
2018-09-11 9:09 ` Thomas Gleixner
2018-09-11 21:12 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 21:27 ` Thomas Gleixner
2018-09-11 21:28 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 21:48 ` Eric Biggers
2018-09-11 22:04 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 06/17] zinc: ChaCha20 MIPS32r2 implementation Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 07/17] zinc: Poly1305 generic C implementation and selftest Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:17 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 07/17] zinc: Poly1305 generic C implementations " Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 08/17] zinc: Poly1305 ARM and ARM64 implementations Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 09/17] zinc: Poly1305 x86_64 implementation Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 10/17] zinc: Poly1305 MIPS32r2 and MIPS64 implementations Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 11/17] zinc: ChaCha20Poly1305 construction and selftest Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 12/17] zinc: BLAKE2s generic C implementation " Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 13/17] zinc: BLAKE2s x86_64 implementation Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 14/17] zinc: Curve25519 generic C implementations and selftest Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 15/17] zinc: Curve25519 ARM implementation Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 16/17] zinc: Curve25519 x86_64 implementation Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 1:08 ` [PATCH net-next v3 17/17] net: WireGuard secure network tunnel Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 12:59 ` kbuild test robot
2018-09-11 20:53 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 13:17 ` kbuild test robot
2018-09-11 21:05 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 13:30 ` Andrew Lunn
2018-09-11 21:08 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2018-09-11 21:55 ` Andrew Lunn
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=49BAF465-B3DC-4155-BFF9-DB6C386C1878@amacapital.net \
--to=luto@amacapital.net \
--cc=Jason@zx2c4.com \
--cc=ard.biesheuvel@linaro.org \
--cc=davem@davemloft.net \
--cc=ebiggers@kernel.org \
--cc=gregkh@linuxfoundation.org \
--cc=jeanphilippe.aumasson@gmail.com \
--cc=linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org \
--cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
--cc=luto@kernel.org \
--cc=netdev@vger.kernel.org \
--cc=sneves@dei.uc.pt \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).