From: "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@kernel.org>
To: Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>
Cc: Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>,
Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
Ankur Arora <ankur.a.arora@oracle.com>,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, x86@kernel.org,
akpm@linux-foundation.org, luto@kernel.org, bp@alien8.de,
dave.hansen@linux.intel.com, hpa@zytor.com, mingo@redhat.com,
juri.lelli@redhat.com, vincent.guittot@linaro.org,
willy@infradead.org, mgorman@suse.de, jon.grimm@amd.com,
bharata@amd.com, raghavendra.kt@amd.com,
boris.ostrovsky@oracle.com, konrad.wilk@oracle.com,
jgross@suse.com, andrew.cooper3@citrix.com,
Frederic Weisbecker <fweisbec@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 7/9] sched: define TIF_ALLOW_RESCHED
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 10:59:42 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <8ab0ae35-9ad3-40cb-8ee8-3801bec0213e@paulmck-laptop> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20231018134107.1941dcf5@gandalf.local.home>
On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 01:41:07PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 10:19:53 -0700
> "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@kernel.org> wrote:
> >
> > Isn't rcu_read_lock() defined as preempt_disable() and rcu_read_unlock()
> > as preempt_enable() in this approach? I certainly hope so, as RCU
> > priority boosting would be a most unwelcome addition to many datacenter
> > workloads.
> >
> > > With this approach the kernel is by definition fully preemptible, which
> > > means means rcu_read_lock() is preemptible too. That's pretty much the
> > > same situation as with PREEMPT_DYNAMIC.
> >
> > Please, just no!!!
>
> Note, when I first read Thomas's proposal, I figured that Paul would no
> longer get to brag that:
>
> "In CONFIG_PREEMPT_NONE, rcu_read_lock() and rcu_read_unlock() are simply
> nops!"
I will still be able to brag that in a fully non-preemptible environment,
rcu_read_lock() and rcu_read_unlock() are simply no-ops. It will
just be that the Linux kernel will no longer be such an environment.
For the moment, anyway, there is still userspace RCU along with a few
other instances of zero-cost RCU readers. ;-)
> But instead, they would be:
>
> static void rcu_read_lock(void)
> {
> preempt_disable();
> }
>
> static void rcu_read_unlock(void)
> {
> preempt_enable();
> }
>
> as it was mentioned that today's preempt_disable() is fast and not an issue
> like it was in older kernels.
And they are already defined as you show above in rcupdate.h, albeit
with leading underscores on the function names.
> That would mean that there will still be a "non preempt" version of RCU.
That would be very good!
> As the preempt version of RCU adds a lot more logic when scheduling out in
> an RCU critical section, that I can envision not all workloads would want
> around. Adding "preempt_disable()" is now low overhead, but adding the RCU
> logic to handle preemption isn't as lightweight as that.
>
> Not to mention the logic to boost those threads that were preempted and
> being starved for some time.
Exactly, thank you!
> > > > 6. You might think that RCU Tasks (as opposed to RCU Tasks Trace
> > > > or RCU Tasks Rude) would need those pesky cond_resched() calls
> > > > to stick around. The reason is that RCU Tasks readers are ended
> > > > only by voluntary context switches. This means that although a
> > > > preemptible infinite loop in the kernel won't inconvenience a
> > > > real-time task (nor an non-real-time task for all that long),
> > > > and won't delay grace periods for the other flavors of RCU,
> > > > it would indefinitely delay an RCU Tasks grace period.
> > > >
> > > > However, RCU Tasks grace periods seem to be finite in preemptible
> > > > kernels today, so they should remain finite in limited-preemptible
> > > > kernels tomorrow. Famous last words...
> > >
> > > That's an issue which you have today with preempt FULL, right? So if it
> > > turns out to be a problem then it's not a problem of the new model.
> >
> > Agreed, and hence my last three lines of text above. Plus the guy who
> > requested RCU Tasks said that it was OK for its grace periods to take
> > a long time, and I am holding Steven Rostedt to that. ;-)
>
> Matters what your definition of "long time" is ;-)
If RCU Tasks grace-period latency has been acceptable in preemptible
kernels (including all CONFIG_PREEMPT_DYNAMIC=y kernels), your definition
of "long" is sufficiently short. ;-)
Thanx, Paul
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-10-18 18:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 152+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-08-30 18:49 [PATCH v2 0/9] x86/clear_huge_page: multi-page clearing Ankur Arora
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 1/9] mm/clear_huge_page: allow arch override for clear_huge_page() Ankur Arora
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 2/9] mm/huge_page: separate clear_huge_page() and copy_huge_page() Ankur Arora
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 3/9] mm/huge_page: cleanup clear_/copy_subpage() Ankur Arora
2023-09-08 13:09 ` Matthew Wilcox
2023-09-11 17:22 ` Ankur Arora
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 4/9] x86/clear_page: extend clear_page*() for multi-page clearing Ankur Arora
2023-09-08 13:11 ` Matthew Wilcox
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 5/9] x86/clear_page: add clear_pages() Ankur Arora
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 6/9] x86/clear_huge_page: multi-page clearing Ankur Arora
2023-08-31 18:26 ` kernel test robot
2023-09-08 12:38 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-13 6:43 ` Raghavendra K T
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 7/9] sched: define TIF_ALLOW_RESCHED Ankur Arora
2023-09-08 7:02 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-08 17:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-08 22:50 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-09 5:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-09 6:39 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-09 9:11 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-09 20:04 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-09 5:30 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-09 9:12 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-09 20:15 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-09 21:16 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-10 3:48 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-10 4:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-10 10:01 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-10 18:32 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-11 15:04 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-11 16:29 ` andrew.cooper3
2023-09-11 17:04 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-12 8:26 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-12 12:24 ` Phil Auld
2023-09-12 12:33 ` Matthew Wilcox
2023-09-18 23:42 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 1:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-19 8:03 ` Ingo Molnar
2023-09-19 8:43 ` Ingo Molnar
2023-09-19 13:43 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 13:25 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 12:30 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 13:00 ` Arches that don't support PREEMPT Matthew Wilcox
2023-09-19 13:34 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2023-09-19 13:37 ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2023-09-19 13:42 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-19 13:48 ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2023-09-19 14:16 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-19 14:24 ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2023-09-19 14:32 ` Matthew Wilcox
2023-09-19 15:31 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-09-20 14:38 ` Anton Ivanov
2023-09-21 12:20 ` Arnd Bergmann
2023-09-19 14:17 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 14:50 ` H. Peter Anvin
2023-09-19 14:57 ` Matt Turner
2023-09-19 17:09 ` Ulrich Teichert
2023-09-19 17:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-19 17:58 ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2023-09-19 18:31 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 18:38 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-09-19 18:52 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-19 19:53 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-20 7:32 ` Ingo Molnar
2023-09-20 7:29 ` Ingo Molnar
2023-09-20 8:26 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-20 10:37 ` David Laight
2023-09-19 14:21 ` Anton Ivanov
2023-09-19 15:17 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 15:21 ` Anton Ivanov
2023-09-19 16:22 ` Richard Weinberger
2023-09-19 16:41 ` Anton Ivanov
2023-09-19 17:33 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-06 14:51 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2023-09-20 14:22 ` [PATCH v2 7/9] sched: define TIF_ALLOW_RESCHED Ankur Arora
2023-09-20 20:51 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-21 0:14 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-21 0:58 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-21 2:12 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-20 23:58 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-21 0:57 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-21 2:02 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-21 4:16 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-21 13:59 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-09-21 16:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-21 22:55 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-23 1:11 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-02 14:15 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-10-02 16:13 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-18 1:03 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-18 12:09 ` Ankur Arora
2023-10-18 17:51 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-18 22:53 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-18 23:25 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-18 13:16 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-18 14:31 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-10-18 17:55 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-18 18:00 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-10-18 18:13 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-19 12:37 ` Daniel Bristot de Oliveira
2023-10-19 17:08 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-18 17:19 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-18 17:41 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-10-18 17:59 ` Paul E. McKenney [this message]
2023-10-18 20:15 ` Ankur Arora
2023-10-18 20:42 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-19 0:21 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-19 19:13 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-20 21:59 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-20 22:56 ` Ankur Arora
2023-10-20 23:36 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-21 1:05 ` Ankur Arora
2023-10-21 2:08 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-24 12:15 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-24 18:59 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-09-23 22:50 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-24 0:10 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-24 7:19 ` Matthew Wilcox
2023-09-24 7:55 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-24 10:29 ` Matthew Wilcox
2023-09-25 0:13 ` Ankur Arora
2023-10-06 13:01 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2023-09-19 7:21 ` Ingo Molnar
2023-09-19 19:05 ` Ankur Arora
2023-10-24 14:34 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-10-25 1:49 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-10-26 7:50 ` Sergey Senozhatsky
2023-10-26 12:48 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-09-11 16:48 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-09-11 20:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-11 21:16 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-12 7:20 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-12 7:38 ` Ingo Molnar
2023-09-11 22:20 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-09-11 23:10 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-11 23:16 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-09-12 16:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-12 3:27 ` Matthew Wilcox
2023-09-12 16:20 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-19 3:21 ` Andy Lutomirski
2023-09-19 9:20 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 9:49 ` Ingo Molnar
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 8/9] irqentry: define irqentry_exit_allow_resched() Ankur Arora
2023-09-08 12:42 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-11 17:24 ` Ankur Arora
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 9/9] x86/clear_huge_page: make clear_contig_region() preemptible Ankur Arora
2023-09-08 12:45 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-03 8:14 ` [PATCH v2 0/9] x86/clear_huge_page: multi-page clearing Mateusz Guzik
2023-09-05 22:14 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-08 2:18 ` Raghavendra K T
2023-09-05 1:06 ` Raghavendra K T
2023-09-05 19:36 ` Ankur Arora
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