From: Ingo Molnar <mingo@kernel.org>
To: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
Ankur Arora <ankur.a.arora@oracle.com>,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, x86@kernel.org,
akpm@linux-foundation.org, luto@kernel.org, bp@alien8.de,
dave.hansen@linux.intel.com, hpa@zytor.com, mingo@redhat.com,
juri.lelli@redhat.com, vincent.guittot@linaro.org,
willy@infradead.org, mgorman@suse.de, tglx@linutronix.de,
jon.grimm@amd.com, bharata@amd.com, raghavendra.kt@amd.com,
boris.ostrovsky@oracle.com, konrad.wilk@oracle.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 7/9] sched: define TIF_ALLOW_RESCHED
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 09:38:46 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <ZQAVho72j1zG/HhK@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20230912072022.GA35261@noisy.programming.kicks-ass.net>
* Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2023 at 02:16:18PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > On Mon, 11 Sept 2023 at 13:50, Linus Torvalds
> > <torvalds@linux-foundation.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Except we've actually been *adding* to this whole mess, rather than
> > > removing it. So we have actively *expanded* on that preemption choice
> > > with PREEMPT_DYNAMIC.
> >
> > Actually, that config option makes no sense.
> >
> > It makes the sched_cond() behavior conditional with a static call.
> >
> > But all the *real* overhead is still there and unconditional (ie all
> > the preempt count updates and the "did it go down to zero and we need
> > to check" code).
> >
> > That just seems stupid. It seems to have all the overhead of a
> > preemptible kernel, just not doing the preemption.
> >
> > So I must be mis-reading this, or just missing something important.
> >
> > The real cost seems to be
> >
> > PREEMPT_BUILD -> PREEMPTION -> PREEMPT_COUNT
> >
> > and PREEMPT vs PREEMPT_DYNAMIC makes no difference to that, since both
> > will end up with that, and thus both cases will have all the spinlock
> > preempt count stuff.
> >
> > There must be some non-preempt_count cost that people worry about.
> >
> > Or maybe I'm just mis-reading the Kconfig stuff entirely. That's
> > possible, because this seems *so* pointless to me.
> >
> > Somebody please hit me with a clue-bat to the noggin.
>
> Well, I was about to reply to your previous email explaining this, but
> this one time I did read more email..
>
> Yes, PREEMPT_DYNAMIC has all the preempt count twiddling and only nops
> out the schedule()/cond_resched() calls where appropriate.
>
> This work was done by a distro (SuSE) and if they're willing to ship this
> I'm thinking the overheads are acceptable to them.
>
> For a significant number of workloads the real overhead is the extra
> preepmtions themselves more than the counting -- but yes, the counting is
> measurable, but probably in the noise compared to other some of the other
> horrible things we have done the past years.
>
> Anyway, if distros are fine shipping with PREEMPT_DYNAMIC, then yes,
> deleting the other options are definitely an option.
Yes, so my understanding is that distros generally worry more about
macro-overhead, for example material changes to a random subset of key
benchmarks that specific enterprise customers care about, and distros are
not nearly as sensitive about micro-overhead that preempt_count()
maintenance causes.
PREEMPT_DYNAMIC is basically a reflection of that: the desire to have only
a single kernel image, but a boot-time toggle to differentiate between
desktop and server loads and have CONFIG_PREEMPT (desktop) but also
PREEMPT_VOLUNTARY behavior (server).
There's also the view that PREEMPT kernels are a bit more QA-friendly,
because atomic code sequences are much better defined & enforced via kernel
warnings. Without preempt_count we only have irqs-off warnings, that are
only a small fraction of all critical sections in the kernel.
Ideally we'd be able to patch out most of the preempt_count maintenance
overhead too - OTOH these days it's little more than noise on most CPUs,
considering the kind of horrible security-workaround overhead we have on
almost all x86 CPU types ... :-/
Thanks,
Ingo
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-09-12 7:38 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 152+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-08-30 18:49 [PATCH v2 0/9] x86/clear_huge_page: multi-page clearing Ankur Arora
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 1/9] mm/clear_huge_page: allow arch override for clear_huge_page() Ankur Arora
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 2/9] mm/huge_page: separate clear_huge_page() and copy_huge_page() Ankur Arora
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 3/9] mm/huge_page: cleanup clear_/copy_subpage() Ankur Arora
2023-09-08 13:09 ` Matthew Wilcox
2023-09-11 17:22 ` Ankur Arora
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 4/9] x86/clear_page: extend clear_page*() for multi-page clearing Ankur Arora
2023-09-08 13:11 ` Matthew Wilcox
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 5/9] x86/clear_page: add clear_pages() Ankur Arora
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 6/9] x86/clear_huge_page: multi-page clearing Ankur Arora
2023-08-31 18:26 ` kernel test robot
2023-09-08 12:38 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-13 6:43 ` Raghavendra K T
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 7/9] sched: define TIF_ALLOW_RESCHED Ankur Arora
2023-09-08 7:02 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-08 17:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-08 22:50 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-09 5:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-09 6:39 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-09 9:11 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-09 20:04 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-09 5:30 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-09 9:12 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-09 20:15 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-09 21:16 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-10 3:48 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-10 4:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-10 10:01 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-10 18:32 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-11 15:04 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-11 16:29 ` andrew.cooper3
2023-09-11 17:04 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-12 8:26 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-12 12:24 ` Phil Auld
2023-09-12 12:33 ` Matthew Wilcox
2023-09-18 23:42 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 1:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-19 8:03 ` Ingo Molnar
2023-09-19 8:43 ` Ingo Molnar
2023-09-19 13:43 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 13:25 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 12:30 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 13:00 ` Arches that don't support PREEMPT Matthew Wilcox
2023-09-19 13:34 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2023-09-19 13:37 ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2023-09-19 13:42 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-19 13:48 ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2023-09-19 14:16 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-19 14:24 ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2023-09-19 14:32 ` Matthew Wilcox
2023-09-19 15:31 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-09-20 14:38 ` Anton Ivanov
2023-09-21 12:20 ` Arnd Bergmann
2023-09-19 14:17 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 14:50 ` H. Peter Anvin
2023-09-19 14:57 ` Matt Turner
2023-09-19 17:09 ` Ulrich Teichert
2023-09-19 17:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-19 17:58 ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2023-09-19 18:31 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 18:38 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-09-19 18:52 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-19 19:53 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-20 7:32 ` Ingo Molnar
2023-09-20 7:29 ` Ingo Molnar
2023-09-20 8:26 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-20 10:37 ` David Laight
2023-09-19 14:21 ` Anton Ivanov
2023-09-19 15:17 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 15:21 ` Anton Ivanov
2023-09-19 16:22 ` Richard Weinberger
2023-09-19 16:41 ` Anton Ivanov
2023-09-19 17:33 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-06 14:51 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2023-09-20 14:22 ` [PATCH v2 7/9] sched: define TIF_ALLOW_RESCHED Ankur Arora
2023-09-20 20:51 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-21 0:14 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-21 0:58 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-21 2:12 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-20 23:58 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-21 0:57 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-21 2:02 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-21 4:16 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-21 13:59 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-09-21 16:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-21 22:55 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-23 1:11 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-02 14:15 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-10-02 16:13 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-18 1:03 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-18 12:09 ` Ankur Arora
2023-10-18 17:51 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-18 22:53 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-18 23:25 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-18 13:16 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-18 14:31 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-10-18 17:55 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-18 18:00 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-10-18 18:13 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-19 12:37 ` Daniel Bristot de Oliveira
2023-10-19 17:08 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-18 17:19 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-18 17:41 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-10-18 17:59 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-18 20:15 ` Ankur Arora
2023-10-18 20:42 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-19 0:21 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-19 19:13 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-20 21:59 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-20 22:56 ` Ankur Arora
2023-10-20 23:36 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-21 1:05 ` Ankur Arora
2023-10-21 2:08 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-10-24 12:15 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-24 18:59 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-09-23 22:50 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-24 0:10 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-24 7:19 ` Matthew Wilcox
2023-09-24 7:55 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-24 10:29 ` Matthew Wilcox
2023-09-25 0:13 ` Ankur Arora
2023-10-06 13:01 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2023-09-19 7:21 ` Ingo Molnar
2023-09-19 19:05 ` Ankur Arora
2023-10-24 14:34 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-10-25 1:49 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-10-26 7:50 ` Sergey Senozhatsky
2023-10-26 12:48 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-09-11 16:48 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-09-11 20:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-11 21:16 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-12 7:20 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-12 7:38 ` Ingo Molnar [this message]
2023-09-11 22:20 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-09-11 23:10 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-11 23:16 ` Steven Rostedt
2023-09-12 16:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-12 3:27 ` Matthew Wilcox
2023-09-12 16:20 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-09-19 3:21 ` Andy Lutomirski
2023-09-19 9:20 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-09-19 9:49 ` Ingo Molnar
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 8/9] irqentry: define irqentry_exit_allow_resched() Ankur Arora
2023-09-08 12:42 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-11 17:24 ` Ankur Arora
2023-08-30 18:49 ` [PATCH v2 9/9] x86/clear_huge_page: make clear_contig_region() preemptible Ankur Arora
2023-09-08 12:45 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-03 8:14 ` [PATCH v2 0/9] x86/clear_huge_page: multi-page clearing Mateusz Guzik
2023-09-05 22:14 ` Ankur Arora
2023-09-08 2:18 ` Raghavendra K T
2023-09-05 1:06 ` Raghavendra K T
2023-09-05 19:36 ` Ankur Arora
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