[virtio-dev] Re: [virtio-comment] Re: [PATCH 09/11] transport-pci: Describe PCI MMR dev config registers

[Jason Wang <jasowang@redhat.com>]

On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 3:04 PM Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 10:13:40AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 6:06 PM Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@redhat.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 03:20:52PM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 2:40 PM Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 02:20:16PM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 2:15 PM Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 09:33:32AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > > > > > This is fine for vDPA but not for virtio if the design can only work
> > > > > > > > for some specific setups (OSes/archs).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well virtio legacy has a long history of documenting existing hacks :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Exactly, so the legacy behaviour is not (or can't be) defined by the
> > > > > > spec but the codes.
> > > > >
> > > > > I mean driver behaviour derives from the code but we do document it in
> > > > > the spec to help people build devices.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > But yes, VIRTIO_F_ORDER_PLATFORM has to be documented.
> > > > > > > And we have to decide what to do about ACCESS_PLATFORM since
> > > > > > > there's a security problem if device allows not acking it.
> > > > > > > Two options:
> > > > > > > - relax the rules a bit and say device will assume ACCESS_PLATFORM
> > > > > > >   is acked anyway
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This will break legacy drivers which assume physical addresses.
> > > > >
> > > > > not that they are not already broken.
> > > >
> > > > I may miss something, the whole point is to allow legacy drivers to
> > > > run otherwise a modern device is sufficient?
> > >
> > > yes and if legacy drivers don't work in a given setup then we
> > > should not worry.
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > - a new flag that is insecure (so useful for sec but useless for dpdk) but optional
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This looks like a new "hack" for the legacy hacks.
> > > > >
> > > > > it's not just for legacy.
> > > >
> > > > We have the ACCESS_PLATFORM feature bit, what is the useage for this new flag?
> > >
> > >
> > > ACCESS_PLATFORM is also a security boundary. so devices must fail
> > > negotiation if it's not there. this new one won't be.
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > And what about ORDER_PLATFORM, I don't think we can modify legacy drivers...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > >
> > > > > You play some tricks with shadow VQ I guess.
> > > >
> > > > Do we really want to add a new feature in the virtio spec that can
> > > > only work with the datapath mediation?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > >
> > > As long as a feature is useful and can't be supported otherwise
> > > we are out of options.
> >
> > Probably not? Is it as simple as relaxing this:
> >
> > "Transitional devices MUST expose the Legacy Interface in I/O space in BAR0."
> >
> > To allow memory space.
> >
> > This works for both software and hardware devices (I had a handy
> > hardware that supports legacy virtio drivers in this way).
> >
> > Thanks
>
> Yes it is certainly simpler.
>
> Question: what happens if you try to run existing windows guests or dpdk
> on these? Do they crash horribly or exit gracefully?

Haven't tried DPDK and windows. But I remember DPDK supported legacy
MMIO bars for a while.

Adding Maxime and Yan for comments here.

>
> The point of the capability is to allow using modern device ID so such
> guests will not even try to bind.

It means a mediation layer is required to use. Then it's not an issue
for this simple relaxing any more?

An advantage of such relaxing is that, for the legacy drivers like an
ancient Linux version that can already do MMIO access to legacy BAR it
can work without any mediation.

At least, if ID can help, it can be used with this as well.

Thanks



>
>
> > > Keeping field practice things out of the
> > > spec helps no one.
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > MST
> > > > >
> > >
>


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