From: Ray Lee <ray-lk@madrabbit.org> To: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> Cc: Maxim Levitsky <maximlevitsky@gmail.com>, Andy Walls <awalls@radix.net>, Jon Smirl <jonsmirl@gmail.com>, Krzysztof Halasa <khc@pm.waw.pl>, Christoph Bartelmus <lirc@bartelmus.de>, dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com, j@jannau.net, jarod@redhat.com, jarod@wilsonet.com, linux-input@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-media@vger.kernel.org, mchehab@redhat.com, stefanr@s5r6.in-berlin.de, superm1@ubuntu.com Subject: Re: [RFC] What are the goals for the architecture of an in-kernel IR system? Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:52:45 -0800 [thread overview] Message-ID: <2c0942db0911291052n6e9dd116x943ee636bcf548b9@mail.gmail.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <20091129181316.7850f33c@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> wrote: >> If decoding can *only* be sanely handled in user-space, that's one >> thing. If it can be handled in kernel, then that would be better. > > Why ? > > I can compute fast fourier transforms in the kernel but that doesn't make > it better than doing it in user space. Of course not. > I can write web servers in the kernel and the same applies. I'm not so young as to not recall Tux. That was again a bad idea, for the same reason. It introduced unnecessary complexity. Enabling userspace to be able to service web requests faster improved all user-space code. Yay. The question is which solution is more complex, the current one that requires userspace to be an active participant in the decoding, so that we can handle bare diodes hooked up to a sound-card, or having the kernel do decode for the sane devices and providing some fall-back for broken hardware. The former has the advantage of being flexible at the cost of increased fragility and surface area for security, and latency in responding to events, the latter has the problem of requiring two different decoding paths to be maintained, at least if you want to support odd-ball hardware. Jon is asking for an architecture discussion, y'know, with use cases. Maxim seems to be saying it's obvious that what we have today works fine. Except it doesn't appear that we have a consensus that everything is fine, nor an obvious winner for how to reduce the complexity here and keep the kernel in a happy, maintainable state for the long haul. Who knows, perhaps I misunderstood the dozens of messages up-thread -- wouldn't be the first time, in which case I'll shut up and let you get back to work.
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Ray Lee <ray-lk@madrabbit.org> To: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> Cc: Maxim Levitsky <maximlevitsky@gmail.com>, Andy Walls <awalls@radix.net>, Jon Smirl <jonsmirl@gmail.com>, Krzysztof Halasa <khc@pm.waw.pl>, Christoph Bartelmus <lirc@bartelmus.de>, dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com, j@jannau.net, jarod@redhat.com, jarod@wilsonet.com, linux-input@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-media@vger.kernel.org, mchehab@redhat.com, stefanr@s5r6.in-berlin.de, superm1@ubuntu.com Subject: Re: [RFC] What are the goals for the architecture of an in-kernel IR system? Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:52:45 -0800 [thread overview] Message-ID: <2c0942db0911291052n6e9dd116x943ee636bcf548b9@mail.gmail.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <20091129181316.7850f33c@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> wrote: >> If decoding can *only* be sanely handled in user-space, that's one >> thing. If it can be handled in kernel, then that would be better. > > Why ? > > I can compute fast fourier transforms in the kernel but that doesn't make > it better than doing it in user space. Of course not. > I can write web servers in the kernel and the same applies. I'm not so young as to not recall Tux. That was again a bad idea, for the same reason. It introduced unnecessary complexity. Enabling userspace to be able to service web requests faster improved all user-space code. Yay. The question is which solution is more complex, the current one that requires userspace to be an active participant in the decoding, so that we can handle bare diodes hooked up to a sound-card, or having the kernel do decode for the sane devices and providing some fall-back for broken hardware. The former has the advantage of being flexible at the cost of increased fragility and surface area for security, and latency in responding to events, the latter has the problem of requiring two different decoding paths to be maintained, at least if you want to support odd-ball hardware. Jon is asking for an architecture discussion, y'know, with use cases. Maxim seems to be saying it's obvious that what we have today works fine. Except it doesn't appear that we have a consensus that everything is fine, nor an obvious winner for how to reduce the complexity here and keep the kernel in a happy, maintainable state for the long haul. Who knows, perhaps I misunderstood the dozens of messages up-thread -- wouldn't be the first time, in which case I'll shut up and let you get back to work.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-11-29 18:53 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 358+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2009-11-27 15:57 [RFC] What are the goals for the architecture of an in-kernel IR system? Jon Smirl 2009-11-27 15:57 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-27 16:57 ` Andy Walls 2009-11-27 17:29 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-11-27 17:29 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-11-27 17:49 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-27 17:49 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-27 19:03 ` Ferenc Wagner 2009-11-27 19:21 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-27 19:21 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 1:34 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-11-29 12:01 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-11-29 12:01 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-11-30 10:41 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-11-30 19:49 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-30 21:35 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-30 21:35 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-01 7:45 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-01 7:45 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-01 11:38 ` Andy Walls 2009-12-01 14:10 ` Maxim Levitsky 2009-12-03 17:31 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-03 17:31 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-28 9:04 ` Simon Kenyon 2009-11-28 9:04 ` Simon Kenyon 2009-11-28 9:04 ` Simon Kenyon 2009-11-28 11:21 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-11-29 11:50 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-11-29 11:50 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-11-30 12:34 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-01 9:52 ` Gerd Hoffmann 2009-12-01 13:11 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-01 14:32 ` Jarod Wilson 2009-12-01 10:20 ` Gerd Hoffmann 2009-12-01 14:14 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-01 15:28 ` Gerd Hoffmann 2009-12-03 4:29 ` Jarod Wilson 2009-12-03 12:09 ` Gerd Hoffmann 2009-12-03 17:55 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-03 18:33 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-04 10:06 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-04 14:12 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-04 15:42 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-04 15:42 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-06 7:09 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-06 11:03 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-06 20:19 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-08 0:00 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-08 14:06 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-07 7:48 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-07 15:34 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-07 18:34 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-07 23:01 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-06 7:14 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-06 11:23 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-03 18:56 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-03 18:56 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-03 18:56 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-03 21:10 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-03 21:51 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-03 21:51 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-03 22:12 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-04 7:37 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-04 7:37 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-04 14:33 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-04 21:46 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-04 21:46 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-04 22:07 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-04 23:01 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-04 23:01 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-04 23:15 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-06 11:58 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-06 11:58 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-07 7:51 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-08 22:27 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-08 22:27 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-05 0:28 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-05 0:28 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-05 1:48 ` Andy Walls 2009-12-05 2:10 ` Andy Walls 2009-12-05 3:45 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-05 3:45 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-06 2:30 ` Andy Walls 2009-12-06 17:26 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-12 22:52 ` david 2009-12-06 3:36 ` hermann pitton 2009-12-06 6:55 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-06 11:46 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-06 17:48 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-06 17:52 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-06 17:52 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-06 20:34 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-06 21:23 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-06 21:23 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-07 23:44 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-08 0:28 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-08 0:28 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-08 0:28 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-08 11:17 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-08 13:34 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-08 13:34 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-08 13:34 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-08 14:56 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-08 22:25 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-08 22:25 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-08 17:04 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-08 13:54 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-08 4:23 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-08 11:58 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-08 14:01 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-08 14:13 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-08 15:26 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-08 15:41 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-08 17:12 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-08 13:57 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-08 17:25 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-08 13:52 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-08 14:07 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-08 14:51 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-08 14:51 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-08 15:29 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-08 15:49 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-08 16:26 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-08 16:26 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-08 4:10 ` Andy Walls 2009-12-08 22:30 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-08 22:30 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-09 2:21 ` Andy Walls 2009-12-07 18:41 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-07 20:08 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-07 21:38 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-08 15:24 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-08 0:44 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-08 0:44 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-08 11:23 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-13 12:14 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-15 11:50 ` Pavel Machek 2009-12-15 13:33 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-15 13:43 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-15 13:43 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-15 13:43 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-15 14:19 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-15 19:58 ` Pavel Machek 2009-12-15 20:14 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-15 20:14 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-15 20:19 ` Pavel Machek 2009-12-15 20:19 ` Pavel Machek 2009-12-15 20:29 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-15 20:29 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-15 20:33 ` Pavel Machek 2009-12-15 20:45 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-15 20:45 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-15 20:45 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-15 21:05 ` Pavel Machek 2009-12-15 21:05 ` Pavel Machek 2009-12-15 21:38 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-15 21:38 ` Jon Smirl 2010-03-25 14:42 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-03-25 18:32 ` Pavel Machek 2010-03-25 19:00 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-03-26 11:04 ` David Härdeman 2010-03-26 11:04 ` David Härdeman 2010-03-26 11:27 ` David Härdeman 2010-03-26 11:27 ` David Härdeman 2010-03-26 14:40 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-03-26 14:40 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-03-26 16:01 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2010-03-26 16:01 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2010-03-26 17:22 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-03-26 19:07 ` David Härdeman 2010-03-26 19:07 ` David Härdeman 2010-03-26 22:37 ` Jon Smirl 2010-03-26 22:37 ` Jon Smirl 2010-03-26 22:37 ` Jon Smirl 2010-03-27 8:27 ` David Härdeman 2010-03-28 23:22 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-03-28 23:22 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-03-29 0:51 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-03-30 11:01 ` David Härdeman 2010-03-31 6:01 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-03-31 6:01 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-03-30 11:09 ` David Härdeman 2010-03-30 11:09 ` David Härdeman 2010-03-30 12:43 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-03-30 12:43 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-03-26 12:23 ` David Härdeman 2010-03-26 15:17 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-03-26 15:17 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-03-26 19:21 ` David Härdeman 2010-03-26 19:21 ` David Härdeman 2010-03-27 5:56 ` Pavel Machek 2010-03-27 5:56 ` Pavel Machek 2010-04-09 7:21 ` James Hogan 2010-04-09 10:50 ` Andy Walls 2010-04-09 12:58 ` Jarod Wilson 2010-04-09 13:02 ` Jon Smirl 2010-04-09 13:02 ` Jon Smirl 2010-04-09 13:02 ` Jon Smirl 2010-04-09 13:01 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-04-09 21:42 ` James Hogan 2010-04-09 21:55 ` Devin Heitmueller 2010-04-09 21:55 ` Devin Heitmueller 2010-04-09 22:14 ` Andy Walls 2010-04-09 23:32 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-04-10 0:18 ` Jon Smirl 2010-04-10 0:18 ` Jon Smirl 2010-04-10 1:01 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2010-04-10 0:38 ` hermann pitton 2009-12-07 15:36 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-06 11:59 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-06 11:59 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-15 11:47 ` Pavel Machek 2009-12-06 12:12 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-06 12:12 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-12-06 16:38 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-06 16:38 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-06 16:38 ` Jon Smirl 2009-12-06 20:22 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-07 23:50 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-03 23:45 ` Andy Walls 2009-12-03 17:47 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-27 21:49 ` Stefan Richter 2009-11-28 1:08 ` Maxim Levitsky 2009-11-28 11:20 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-28 14:42 ` Maxim Levitsky 2009-11-28 15:25 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-28 15:35 ` Maxim Levitsky 2009-11-28 15:44 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-28 16:26 ` Maxim Levitsky 2009-11-28 16:44 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-28 16:47 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-11-28 16:47 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-11-28 17:06 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 17:06 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 17:35 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-28 17:37 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 17:37 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 17:37 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 17:40 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-28 17:40 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-28 23:26 ` Andy Walls 2009-11-29 4:58 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-11-29 20:27 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-29 20:44 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-29 20:44 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-29 20:44 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-29 21:29 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-11-29 21:47 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-29 21:47 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-29 22:48 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-11-29 21:31 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-11-30 4:50 ` Jarod Wilson 2009-11-30 0:48 ` Andy Walls 2009-12-01 10:46 ` Gerd Hoffmann 2009-12-01 11:49 ` Andy Walls 2009-12-01 14:02 ` Gerd Hoffmann 2009-12-01 14:18 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-11-30 17:45 ` Lennart Sorensen 2009-11-29 4:32 ` Andy Walls 2009-11-29 4:50 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-11-29 12:40 ` Alan Cox 2009-11-29 17:28 ` Maxim Levitsky 2009-11-29 17:49 ` Ray Lee 2009-11-29 17:49 ` Ray Lee 2009-11-29 18:13 ` Alan Cox 2009-11-29 18:52 ` Ray Lee [this message] 2009-11-29 18:52 ` Ray Lee 2009-11-29 19:04 ` Alan Cox 2009-11-29 19:16 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-29 19:16 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-29 19:29 ` Alan Cox 2009-11-29 19:49 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-11-29 19:49 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-11-30 0:05 ` Andy Walls 2009-11-29 23:35 ` Andy Walls 2009-11-30 2:15 ` Ray Lee 2009-11-30 2:15 ` Ray Lee 2009-11-30 2:15 ` Ray Lee 2009-11-30 9:58 ` Artur Skawina 2009-11-30 11:56 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-11-30 12:57 ` Andy Walls 2009-11-30 13:23 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-30 13:23 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-30 13:23 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-30 13:24 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-11-30 16:14 ` kevin granade 2009-11-30 16:14 ` kevin granade 2009-11-30 17:33 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-11-30 18:02 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-11-30 18:27 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-11-30 19:07 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-11-30 20:07 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-30 13:43 ` Maxim Levitsky 2009-11-30 14:01 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-30 14:01 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-30 15:04 ` Maxim Levitsky 2009-11-30 16:19 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-11-30 20:03 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-29 18:19 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-29 18:19 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-29 19:00 ` Alan Cox 2009-11-30 9:57 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-11-28 18:17 ` Stefan Richter 2009-11-28 18:58 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 18:58 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 18:58 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 19:45 ` Stefan Richter 2009-11-28 20:08 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 20:08 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 20:08 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 20:21 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-12-12 19:33 ` Pavel Machek 2009-11-28 20:29 ` Stefan Richter 2009-11-28 20:34 ` Stefan Richter 2009-11-28 20:46 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 20:46 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 20:46 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 21:46 ` Stefan Richter 2009-11-28 22:10 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 22:10 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 22:10 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 22:18 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 22:18 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-29 4:59 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-11-29 16:01 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-11-29 16:18 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-11-29 11:24 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-11-29 11:24 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-11-29 16:01 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-11-28 19:55 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-28 20:14 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 20:14 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 20:29 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-28 17:21 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-28 17:21 ` Krzysztof Halasa 2009-11-29 11:07 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-11-29 11:07 ` Christoph Bartelmus 2009-11-28 16:45 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 16:45 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 18:45 ` Maxim Levitsky 2009-11-28 18:56 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 18:56 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 19:16 ` Maxim Levitsky 2009-11-28 19:30 ` Stefan Richter 2009-11-28 19:32 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 19:32 ` Jon Smirl 2009-11-28 19:48 ` Stefan Richter 2009-11-29 2:47 ` Mike Lampard 2009-11-29 4:55 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-11-29 5:31 ` Mike Lampard 2009-11-29 7:14 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-11-29 21:59 ` Artur Skawina 2009-11-30 12:13 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-07 17:53 Emmanuel Fusté 2009-12-07 23:16 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab 2009-12-07 17:54 Emmanuel Fusté 2009-12-07 18:24 ` Dmitry Torokhov 2009-12-08 9:31 ` Emmanuel Fusté
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