From: Jon Smirl <jonsmirl@gmail.com>
To: Ferenc Wagner <wferi@niif.hu>
Cc: Christoph Bartelmus <lirc@bartelmus.de>,
awalls@radix.net, christoph@bartelmus.de,
dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com, j@jannau.net, jarod@redhat.com,
jarod@wilsonet.com, khc@pm.waw.pl, linux-input@vger.kernel.org,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-media@vger.kernel.org,
mchehab@redhat.com, superm1@ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: [RFC] What are the goals for the architecture of an in-kernel IR system?
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:21:13 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <9e4733910911271121j452aa796j543f1fc3f6de7028@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <874oof6b9u.fsf@tac.ki.iif.hu>
On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Ferenc Wagner <wferi@niif.hu> wrote:
> Jon Smirl <jonsmirl@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Christoph Bartelmus <lirc@bartelmus.de> wrote:
>>
>>>> Maybe we decide to take the existing LIRC system as is and not
>>>> integrate it into the input subsystem. But I think there is a window
>>>> here to update the LIRC design to use the latest kernel features.
>>>
>>> If it ain't broke, don't fix it. [...]
>>>
>>> We already agreed last year that we can include an interface in
>>> lirc_dev that feeds the signal data to an in-kernel decoder if noone
>>> from userspace reads it. [...]
>>>
>>> I also understand that people want to avoid dependency on external
>>> userspace tools. All I can tell you is that the lirc tools already do
>>> support everything you need for IR control. And as it includes a lot of
>>> drivers that are implemented in userspace already, LIRC will just continue
>>> to do it's work even when there is an alternative in-kernel.
>>
>> Christoph, take what you know from all of the years of working on LIRC
>> and design the perfect in-kernel system.
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm reading this thread with great interest. Thank you (plural) for the
> very informative conversation, I think I learnt a lot. But now I
> somehow lost the point, please correct me if the following is wrong.
>
> It looks like having lirc_dev (or a similar raw interface) is a must.
> It could be disguised as an input device, or changed in various ways,
> but is it worth the effort? As I understand Christoph, he does not want
> to do so, because he finds it wasted work, and also there's already a
> *single* user space daemon using it and doing everything users could
> want. Except for plug&play.
The high level summary:
LIRC has developed it's own way of doing things. It has its own device
protocol, user space daemon, tools, etc. No one is denying that all of
that works.
The alternative is to rework IR to use standard kernel interfaces
(evdev, sysfs, configfs), standard user space tools (udev, ls, mkdir,
cat) and make the daemon optional.
Since IR hasn't been added to the kernel yet we are still free to
design the user space API before locking it in stone for the next
twenty years.
This is an architectural debate, not a debate on specific features.
>
> On the other hand, a one-liner could make in-kernel decoding possible,
> so those who haven't got lircd running could have plug&play easily, if
> somebody writes the necessary in-kernel decoders to feed the input
> subsystem (which lircd also does, through uinput).
>
> But even if you can't find anybody at the moment to write those, this is
> still good stuff (I don't know about the code), which is hurt by being
> developed out of kernel. Is there any reason to keep this so?
> Admittedly, I don't know why /dev/mouse is evil, maybe I'd understand if
/dev/mouse is evil because it is possible to read partial mouse
messages. evdev fixes things so that you only get complete messages.
> somebody pointed me to some reading.
> --
> Thanks,
> Feri.
>
--
Jon Smirl
jonsmirl@gmail.com
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Jon Smirl <jonsmirl@gmail.com>
To: Ferenc Wagner <wferi@niif.hu>
Cc: Christoph Bartelmus <lirc@bartelmus.de>,
awalls@radix.net, christoph@bartelmus.de,
dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com, j@jannau.net, jarod@redhat.com,
jarod@wilsonet.com, khc@pm.waw.pl, linux-input@vger.kernel.org,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-media@vger.kernel.org,
mchehab@redhat.com, superm1@ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: [RFC] What are the goals for the architecture of an in-kernel IR system?
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:21:13 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <9e4733910911271121j452aa796j543f1fc3f6de7028@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <874oof6b9u.fsf@tac.ki.iif.hu>
On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Ferenc Wagner <wferi@niif.hu> wrote:
> Jon Smirl <jonsmirl@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Christoph Bartelmus <lirc@bartelmus.de> wrote:
>>
>>>> Maybe we decide to take the existing LIRC system as is and not
>>>> integrate it into the input subsystem. But I think there is a window
>>>> here to update the LIRC design to use the latest kernel features.
>>>
>>> If it ain't broke, don't fix it. [...]
>>>
>>> We already agreed last year that we can include an interface in
>>> lirc_dev that feeds the signal data to an in-kernel decoder if noone
>>> from userspace reads it. [...]
>>>
>>> I also understand that people want to avoid dependency on external
>>> userspace tools. All I can tell you is that the lirc tools already do
>>> support everything you need for IR control. And as it includes a lot of
>>> drivers that are implemented in userspace already, LIRC will just continue
>>> to do it's work even when there is an alternative in-kernel.
>>
>> Christoph, take what you know from all of the years of working on LIRC
>> and design the perfect in-kernel system.
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm reading this thread with great interest. Thank you (plural) for the
> very informative conversation, I think I learnt a lot. But now I
> somehow lost the point, please correct me if the following is wrong.
>
> It looks like having lirc_dev (or a similar raw interface) is a must.
> It could be disguised as an input device, or changed in various ways,
> but is it worth the effort? As I understand Christoph, he does not want
> to do so, because he finds it wasted work, and also there's already a
> *single* user space daemon using it and doing everything users could
> want. Except for plug&play.
The high level summary:
LIRC has developed it's own way of doing things. It has its own device
protocol, user space daemon, tools, etc. No one is denying that all of
that works.
The alternative is to rework IR to use standard kernel interfaces
(evdev, sysfs, configfs), standard user space tools (udev, ls, mkdir,
cat) and make the daemon optional.
Since IR hasn't been added to the kernel yet we are still free to
design the user space API before locking it in stone for the next
twenty years.
This is an architectural debate, not a debate on specific features.
>
> On the other hand, a one-liner could make in-kernel decoding possible,
> so those who haven't got lircd running could have plug&play easily, if
> somebody writes the necessary in-kernel decoders to feed the input
> subsystem (which lircd also does, through uinput).
>
> But even if you can't find anybody at the moment to write those, this is
> still good stuff (I don't know about the code), which is hurt by being
> developed out of kernel. Is there any reason to keep this so?
> Admittedly, I don't know why /dev/mouse is evil, maybe I'd understand if
/dev/mouse is evil because it is possible to read partial mouse
messages. evdev fixes things so that you only get complete messages.
> somebody pointed me to some reading.
> --
> Thanks,
> Feri.
>
--
Jon Smirl
jonsmirl@gmail.com
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-11-27 19:21 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 358+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2009-11-27 15:57 [RFC] What are the goals for the architecture of an in-kernel IR system? Jon Smirl
2009-11-27 15:57 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-27 16:57 ` Andy Walls
2009-11-27 17:29 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-11-27 17:29 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-11-27 17:49 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-27 17:49 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-27 19:03 ` Ferenc Wagner
2009-11-27 19:21 ` Jon Smirl [this message]
2009-11-27 19:21 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 1:34 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-11-29 12:01 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-11-29 12:01 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-11-30 10:41 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-11-30 19:49 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-30 21:35 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-30 21:35 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-01 7:45 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-01 7:45 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-01 11:38 ` Andy Walls
2009-12-01 14:10 ` Maxim Levitsky
2009-12-03 17:31 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-03 17:31 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-28 9:04 ` Simon Kenyon
2009-11-28 9:04 ` Simon Kenyon
2009-11-28 9:04 ` Simon Kenyon
2009-11-28 11:21 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-11-29 11:50 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-11-29 11:50 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-11-30 12:34 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-01 9:52 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2009-12-01 13:11 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-01 14:32 ` Jarod Wilson
2009-12-01 10:20 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2009-12-01 14:14 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-01 15:28 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2009-12-03 4:29 ` Jarod Wilson
2009-12-03 12:09 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2009-12-03 17:55 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-03 18:33 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-04 10:06 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-04 14:12 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-04 15:42 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-04 15:42 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-06 7:09 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-06 11:03 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-06 20:19 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-08 0:00 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-08 14:06 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-07 7:48 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-07 15:34 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-07 18:34 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-07 23:01 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-06 7:14 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-06 11:23 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-03 18:56 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-03 18:56 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-03 18:56 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-03 21:10 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-03 21:51 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-03 21:51 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-03 22:12 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-04 7:37 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-04 7:37 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-04 14:33 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-04 21:46 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-04 21:46 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-04 22:07 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-04 23:01 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-04 23:01 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-04 23:15 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-06 11:58 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-06 11:58 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-07 7:51 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-08 22:27 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-08 22:27 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-05 0:28 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-05 0:28 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-05 1:48 ` Andy Walls
2009-12-05 2:10 ` Andy Walls
2009-12-05 3:45 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-05 3:45 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-06 2:30 ` Andy Walls
2009-12-06 17:26 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-12 22:52 ` david
2009-12-06 3:36 ` hermann pitton
2009-12-06 6:55 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-06 11:46 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-06 17:48 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-06 17:52 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-06 17:52 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-06 20:34 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-06 21:23 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-06 21:23 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-07 23:44 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-08 0:28 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-08 0:28 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-08 0:28 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-08 11:17 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-08 13:34 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-08 13:34 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-08 13:34 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-08 14:56 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-08 22:25 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-08 22:25 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-08 17:04 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-08 13:54 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-08 4:23 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-08 11:58 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-08 14:01 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-08 14:13 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-08 15:26 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-08 15:41 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-08 17:12 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-08 13:57 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-08 17:25 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-08 13:52 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-08 14:07 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-08 14:51 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-08 14:51 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-08 15:29 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-08 15:49 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-08 16:26 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-08 16:26 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-08 4:10 ` Andy Walls
2009-12-08 22:30 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-08 22:30 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-09 2:21 ` Andy Walls
2009-12-07 18:41 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-07 20:08 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-07 21:38 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-08 15:24 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-08 0:44 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-08 0:44 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-08 11:23 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-13 12:14 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-15 11:50 ` Pavel Machek
2009-12-15 13:33 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-15 13:43 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-15 13:43 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-15 13:43 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-15 14:19 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-15 19:58 ` Pavel Machek
2009-12-15 20:14 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-15 20:14 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-15 20:19 ` Pavel Machek
2009-12-15 20:19 ` Pavel Machek
2009-12-15 20:29 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-15 20:29 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-15 20:33 ` Pavel Machek
2009-12-15 20:45 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-15 20:45 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-15 20:45 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-15 21:05 ` Pavel Machek
2009-12-15 21:05 ` Pavel Machek
2009-12-15 21:38 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-15 21:38 ` Jon Smirl
2010-03-25 14:42 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-03-25 18:32 ` Pavel Machek
2010-03-25 19:00 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-03-26 11:04 ` David Härdeman
2010-03-26 11:04 ` David Härdeman
2010-03-26 11:27 ` David Härdeman
2010-03-26 11:27 ` David Härdeman
2010-03-26 14:40 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-03-26 14:40 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-03-26 16:01 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2010-03-26 16:01 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2010-03-26 17:22 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-03-26 19:07 ` David Härdeman
2010-03-26 19:07 ` David Härdeman
2010-03-26 22:37 ` Jon Smirl
2010-03-26 22:37 ` Jon Smirl
2010-03-26 22:37 ` Jon Smirl
2010-03-27 8:27 ` David Härdeman
2010-03-28 23:22 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-03-28 23:22 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-03-29 0:51 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-03-30 11:01 ` David Härdeman
2010-03-31 6:01 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-03-31 6:01 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-03-30 11:09 ` David Härdeman
2010-03-30 11:09 ` David Härdeman
2010-03-30 12:43 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-03-30 12:43 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-03-26 12:23 ` David Härdeman
2010-03-26 15:17 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-03-26 15:17 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-03-26 19:21 ` David Härdeman
2010-03-26 19:21 ` David Härdeman
2010-03-27 5:56 ` Pavel Machek
2010-03-27 5:56 ` Pavel Machek
2010-04-09 7:21 ` James Hogan
2010-04-09 10:50 ` Andy Walls
2010-04-09 12:58 ` Jarod Wilson
2010-04-09 13:02 ` Jon Smirl
2010-04-09 13:02 ` Jon Smirl
2010-04-09 13:02 ` Jon Smirl
2010-04-09 13:01 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-04-09 21:42 ` James Hogan
2010-04-09 21:55 ` Devin Heitmueller
2010-04-09 21:55 ` Devin Heitmueller
2010-04-09 22:14 ` Andy Walls
2010-04-09 23:32 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-04-10 0:18 ` Jon Smirl
2010-04-10 0:18 ` Jon Smirl
2010-04-10 1:01 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2010-04-10 0:38 ` hermann pitton
2009-12-07 15:36 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-06 11:59 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-06 11:59 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-15 11:47 ` Pavel Machek
2009-12-06 12:12 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-06 12:12 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-12-06 16:38 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-06 16:38 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-06 16:38 ` Jon Smirl
2009-12-06 20:22 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-07 23:50 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-03 23:45 ` Andy Walls
2009-12-03 17:47 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-27 21:49 ` Stefan Richter
2009-11-28 1:08 ` Maxim Levitsky
2009-11-28 11:20 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-28 14:42 ` Maxim Levitsky
2009-11-28 15:25 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-28 15:35 ` Maxim Levitsky
2009-11-28 15:44 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-28 16:26 ` Maxim Levitsky
2009-11-28 16:44 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-28 16:47 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-11-28 16:47 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-11-28 17:06 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 17:06 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 17:35 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-28 17:37 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 17:37 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 17:37 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 17:40 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-28 17:40 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-28 23:26 ` Andy Walls
2009-11-29 4:58 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-11-29 20:27 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-29 20:44 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-29 20:44 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-29 20:44 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-29 21:29 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-11-29 21:47 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-29 21:47 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-29 22:48 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-11-29 21:31 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-11-30 4:50 ` Jarod Wilson
2009-11-30 0:48 ` Andy Walls
2009-12-01 10:46 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2009-12-01 11:49 ` Andy Walls
2009-12-01 14:02 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2009-12-01 14:18 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-11-30 17:45 ` Lennart Sorensen
2009-11-29 4:32 ` Andy Walls
2009-11-29 4:50 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-11-29 12:40 ` Alan Cox
2009-11-29 17:28 ` Maxim Levitsky
2009-11-29 17:49 ` Ray Lee
2009-11-29 17:49 ` Ray Lee
2009-11-29 18:13 ` Alan Cox
2009-11-29 18:52 ` Ray Lee
2009-11-29 18:52 ` Ray Lee
2009-11-29 19:04 ` Alan Cox
2009-11-29 19:16 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-29 19:16 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-29 19:29 ` Alan Cox
2009-11-29 19:49 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-11-29 19:49 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-11-30 0:05 ` Andy Walls
2009-11-29 23:35 ` Andy Walls
2009-11-30 2:15 ` Ray Lee
2009-11-30 2:15 ` Ray Lee
2009-11-30 2:15 ` Ray Lee
2009-11-30 9:58 ` Artur Skawina
2009-11-30 11:56 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-11-30 12:57 ` Andy Walls
2009-11-30 13:23 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-30 13:23 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-30 13:23 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-30 13:24 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-11-30 16:14 ` kevin granade
2009-11-30 16:14 ` kevin granade
2009-11-30 17:33 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-11-30 18:02 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-11-30 18:27 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-11-30 19:07 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-11-30 20:07 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-30 13:43 ` Maxim Levitsky
2009-11-30 14:01 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-30 14:01 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-30 15:04 ` Maxim Levitsky
2009-11-30 16:19 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-11-30 20:03 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-29 18:19 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-29 18:19 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-29 19:00 ` Alan Cox
2009-11-30 9:57 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-11-28 18:17 ` Stefan Richter
2009-11-28 18:58 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 18:58 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 18:58 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 19:45 ` Stefan Richter
2009-11-28 20:08 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 20:08 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 20:08 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 20:21 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-12-12 19:33 ` Pavel Machek
2009-11-28 20:29 ` Stefan Richter
2009-11-28 20:34 ` Stefan Richter
2009-11-28 20:46 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 20:46 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 20:46 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 21:46 ` Stefan Richter
2009-11-28 22:10 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 22:10 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 22:10 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 22:18 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 22:18 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-29 4:59 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-11-29 16:01 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-11-29 16:18 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-11-29 11:24 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-11-29 11:24 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-11-29 16:01 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-11-28 19:55 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-28 20:14 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 20:14 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 20:29 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-28 17:21 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-28 17:21 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-11-29 11:07 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-11-29 11:07 ` Christoph Bartelmus
2009-11-28 16:45 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 16:45 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 18:45 ` Maxim Levitsky
2009-11-28 18:56 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 18:56 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 19:16 ` Maxim Levitsky
2009-11-28 19:30 ` Stefan Richter
2009-11-28 19:32 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 19:32 ` Jon Smirl
2009-11-28 19:48 ` Stefan Richter
2009-11-29 2:47 ` Mike Lampard
2009-11-29 4:55 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-11-29 5:31 ` Mike Lampard
2009-11-29 7:14 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-11-29 21:59 ` Artur Skawina
2009-11-30 12:13 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-07 17:53 Emmanuel Fusté
2009-12-07 23:16 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2009-12-07 17:54 Emmanuel Fusté
2009-12-07 18:24 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2009-12-08 9:31 ` Emmanuel Fusté
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