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From: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
To: Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org>
Cc: "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@sisk.pl>,
	Daniel Barkalow <barkalow@iabervon.org>,
	nigel@nigel.suspend2.net, Robert Hancock <hancockr@shaw.ca>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Jeff Garzik <jeff@garzik.org>, Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz>,
	pm list <linux-pm@lists.osdl.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] Re: NAK new drivers without proper power management?
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:09:43 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20070211130943.GA1868@1wt.eu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20070211121339.GB4204@srcf.ucam.org>

On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 12:13:40PM +0000, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 07:54:04AM +0100, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> 
> > instead of modifying all drivers to explicitly state that they don't support
> > it, we should start with a test of the NULL pointer for .suspend which should
> > mean exactly the same without modifying the drivers. I find it obvious that
> > a driver which does provide a suspend function will not support it. And if
> > some drivers (eg /dev/null) can support it anyway, it's better to change
> > *those* drivers to explicitly mark them as compatible.
> 
> No, that doesn't work. In the absence of suspend/resume methods, the PCI 
> layer will implement basic PM itself. In some cases, this works. In 
> others, it doesn't. There's no way to automatically determine which is 
> which without modifying the drivers.

Then change the PCI layer to do the basic PM only for known compatible
drivers, and modify only the known-compatible drivers to mark them
explicitly compatible. IMHO, it generally is a bad idea to require that
any driver explicitly states what it *does not* support. It's the reason
why users encounter problem on new features with old drivers. For instance,
do you know if the old ISA NE2000 driver breaks suspend ? I don't know,
but I would at least expect it not to support it by default. It's best
to announce what *is* supported and consider everything unimplemented
otherwise explicitly stated.

Regards,
Willy


WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
To: Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org>
Cc: Robert Hancock <hancockr@shaw.ca>, Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz>,
	Jeff Garzik <jeff@garzik.org>,
	Daniel Barkalow <barkalow@iabervon.org>,
	pm list <linux-pm@lists.osdl.org>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] Re: NAK new drivers without proper power management?
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:09:43 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20070211130943.GA1868@1wt.eu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20070211121339.GB4204@srcf.ucam.org>

On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 12:13:40PM +0000, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 07:54:04AM +0100, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> 
> > instead of modifying all drivers to explicitly state that they don't support
> > it, we should start with a test of the NULL pointer for .suspend which should
> > mean exactly the same without modifying the drivers. I find it obvious that
> > a driver which does provide a suspend function will not support it. And if
> > some drivers (eg /dev/null) can support it anyway, it's better to change
> > *those* drivers to explicitly mark them as compatible.
> 
> No, that doesn't work. In the absence of suspend/resume methods, the PCI 
> layer will implement basic PM itself. In some cases, this works. In 
> others, it doesn't. There's no way to automatically determine which is 
> which without modifying the drivers.

Then change the PCI layer to do the basic PM only for known compatible
drivers, and modify only the known-compatible drivers to mark them
explicitly compatible. IMHO, it generally is a bad idea to require that
any driver explicitly states what it *does not* support. It's the reason
why users encounter problem on new features with old drivers. For instance,
do you know if the old ISA NE2000 driver breaks suspend ? I don't know,
but I would at least expect it not to support it by default. It's best
to announce what *is* supported and consider everything unimplemented
otherwise explicitly stated.

Regards,
Willy

  reply	other threads:[~2007-02-11 13:10 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 81+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <fa.xSKPgY66Q+DPCZ1pszFFfdrJ0To@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found] ` <fa.FzHdYYYH5Ru57c8/yRxLylpH0Kk@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found]   ` <fa.DuG12yQo+RR4jIjJTnoOwtKM0Ao@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found]     ` <fa.Jy0FJQtASvVEpsy8Q96uoHtyEVA@ifi.uio.no>
2007-02-10  1:50       ` NAK new drivers without proper power management? Robert Hancock
2007-02-10  1:59         ` Lee Revell
2007-02-10  2:09           ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-10  2:22             ` Lee Revell
2007-02-10  3:21               ` Kevin Fox
2007-02-10 20:40               ` Adrian Bunk
2007-02-10  4:35           ` Joseph Fannin
2007-02-13 21:08             ` Pavel Machek
2007-02-10 12:47           ` Stefan Richter
2007-02-10  2:05         ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-10  3:27           ` Dmitry Torokhov
2007-02-10  4:18             ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-10  3:02         ` [PATCH] " Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-10  9:34           ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-10  9:34             ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-10 10:02             ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-10 10:30               ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-10 10:30                 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-10 17:52                 ` Daniel Barkalow
2007-02-10 17:52                   ` Daniel Barkalow
2007-02-10 19:50                   ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-10 19:50                     ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11  6:54                     ` Willy Tarreau
2007-02-11  6:54                       ` Willy Tarreau
2007-02-11 12:13                       ` Matthew Garrett
2007-02-11 13:09                         ` Willy Tarreau [this message]
2007-02-11 13:09                           ` Willy Tarreau
2007-02-11 13:19                           ` Matthew Garrett
2007-02-11 13:37                             ` Willy Tarreau
2007-02-11 13:37                               ` Willy Tarreau
2007-02-11 13:50                               ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 13:50                                 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 13:57                                 ` Willy Tarreau
2007-02-11 13:57                                   ` Willy Tarreau
2007-02-11 14:36                                   ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 14:36                                     ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 15:19                                     ` Pekka Enberg
2007-02-11 15:19                                       ` Pekka Enberg
2007-02-11 18:31                                       ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 18:31                                         ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 17:27                                     ` Daniel Barkalow
2007-02-11 18:53                                       ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 18:53                                         ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 23:06                                         ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-11 23:06                                           ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-11 23:10                                           ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 23:10                                             ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 21:04                                     ` Stefan Richter
2007-02-11 21:04                                       ` Stefan Richter
2007-02-11 21:10                           ` Pavel Machek
2007-02-11 17:36                         ` Robert Hancock
2007-02-11 22:49                         ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-11 19:37                   ` Pavel Machek
2007-02-11 19:37                     ` Pavel Machek
     [not found]   ` <fa.DhkemAgVI60diqZy0t9GzpwyLmk@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found]     ` <fa.E/NjHlgg0HqDg5CgZjnCHFi2AMM@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found]       ` <fa.kop49l/7yexJoUGrzk6vVeIP934@ifi.uio.no>
2007-02-10 23:20         ` Robert Hancock
2007-02-11  0:44           ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 17:01             ` Pavel Machek
2007-02-11 22:40             ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-11 23:29               ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 23:40                 ` Nigel Cunningham
     [not found]         ` <fa.EgQN5JpU6xrZSLyOY0kWjJ26hUM@ifi.uio.no>
2007-02-11 18:31           ` Robert Hancock
2007-02-11 21:52             ` Willy Tarreau
2007-02-11 22:26               ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-11 22:46                 ` Willy Tarreau
2007-02-11 23:18                   ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-11 23:38                     ` Willy Tarreau
2007-02-11 23:45                       ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-12  0:26                       ` Alan
2007-02-12  5:19                         ` Willy Tarreau
2007-02-12 20:20                           ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-12 22:36                           ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-11 23:23                   ` Alan
2007-02-11 23:38                   ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 23:41                 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 23:47                   ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-11 23:50                     ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-11 23:55                       ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-12  0:09                         ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-02-12  0:15                           ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-02-12 12:19               ` Pavel Machek
     [not found]         ` <fa.O1YH4k5KtBGCNs5i2yB17bPvPGw@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found]           ` <fa.RfzClbTP/7B79AoEbQLNj3ABfIk@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found]             ` <fa.AaJ/ugmiUmPO8uC+y1rS9JLuuMc@ifi.uio.no>
2007-02-12  0:59               ` Robert Hancock

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