Donating a mr97310 based elta-media 8212dc (0x093a:0x010e)

Donating a mr97310 based elta-media 8212dc (0x093a:0x010e)

[Wolfram Sang]

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Hi all,

I recently found an elta media dc8212 camera (usb-id: 0x093a:0x010e) in a pile
of old hardware. When looking for linux-support (out of curiosity, I don't need
the cam), I saw that there is activity regarding these types of camera
(mr97310) right now. As I am currently busy in other departments of the kernel,
I was wondering if somebody here is interested in getting the camera to do
further research? If so, just drop me a mail and I will send it free-of-charge.

Regards,

   Wolfram

PS: The camera still works. Just checked with another OS on a friend's machine.

-- 
Pengutronix e.K.                           | Wolfram Sang                |
Industrial Linux Solutions                 | http://www.pengutronix.de/  |

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Re: Donating a mr97310 based elta-media 8212dc (0x093a:0x010e)

[Theodore Kilgore]

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Wolfram Sang wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I recently found an elta media dc8212 camera (usb-id: 0x093a:0x010e) in a pile
> of old hardware. When looking for linux-support (out of curiosity, I don't need
> the cam), I saw that there is activity regarding these types of camera
> (mr97310) right now. As I am currently busy in other departments of the kernel,
> I was wondering if somebody here is interested in getting the camera to do
> further research? If so, just drop me a mail and I will send it free-of-charge.
>
> Regards,
>
>   Wolfram
>
> PS: The camera still works. Just checked with another OS on a friend's machine.
>
> -- 
> Pengutronix e.K.                           | Wolfram Sang                |
> Industrial Linux Solutions                 | http://www.pengutronix.de/  |
>

Hi,

If you want to do such a thing, I think it is very kind of you. As for 
myself, I suspect that I already have three or four similar cameras, and 
so I probably do not really need another one. Also, judging from your 
e-mail address you are in Germany and I am in the US, making it a less 
desirable prospect to ship such an object for such a distance.

Therefore, I would offer the suggestion that the camera should go to Kyle 
Guin, who wrote the kernel support, or, if he is also in the US (I do not 
know where he lives) then perhaps to Thomas Kaiser, who lives a bit closer 
to you. I think that all three of us are equally interested but as I said 
I do not believe that I need another one of these cameras. In case that I 
have missed someone else who might be interested, that is inadvertent on 
my part.

Judging from the Vendor:Product number which you report, it is one of the 
small MR97310 cameras for which the OEM driver was called the "CIF" 
driver. Indeed, these cameras are not supported right now, so the matter 
is interesting.

I do suspect at this point that the clue to getting these cameras to work 
is probably to be found in the initialization sequence. I did manage 
(finally!) to get one of my old test machines running Windows to accept a 
driver installation and to give me a sniff or two. My preliminary analysis 
from that experience is, first, the initialization sequence is a bit 
different, and, second, the frame data seems to look different from what I 
get with the current initialization sequence on Linux. I also tried to 
convert a couple of frame data outputs from a sniff log back into binary 
format, to see if I could get something out which looks like a picture. I 
think I did. Not a very good picture, but it seems that I got something 
more than mere noise. I also found out that some of my small cameras with 
the same ID will stream, and some will not. Those which will not stream 
have a rather strange failure mode: they go through all the motions, but 
they produce nothing but a string of repetitions of the SOF marker -- and 
this with the OEM driver software, too. But you say that yours actually 
worked.

Finally, I would ask one question:

In the libgphoto2 driver for these cameras, I have a listing for

{"Elta Medi@ digi-cam", GP_DRIVER_STATUS_EXPERIMENTAL, 0x093a, 0x010e},

Do you think this is the same camera, or a different one? Yours has a 
model number, and my listing does not. Elta could of course have produced 
two "different" cameras with the same guts inside, and sold them under two 
different model descriptions. I have seen lots of that kind of thing from 
other camera vendors. So should there be a separate entry listing this one 
by model number? The reason I do not know the answers to such questions 
is that, obviously, I have never seen either one of these two cameras. The 
first one was reported to me, just like the one which you are offering to 
us.

Also might you be interested to try it out as a still camera, with 
libgphoto2, before surrendering it to someone else?

Theodore Kilgore

Re: Donating a mr97310 based elta-media 8212dc (0x093a:0x010e)

[Thomas Kaiser]

On 04/30/2009 05:24 PM, Theodore Kilgore wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Wolfram Sang wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I recently found an elta media dc8212 camera (usb-id: 0x093a:0x010e) 
>> in a pile
>> of old hardware. When looking for linux-support (out of curiosity, I 
>> don't need
>> the cam), I saw that there is activity regarding these types of camera
>> (mr97310) right now. As I am currently busy in other departments of 
>> the kernel,
>> I was wondering if somebody here is interested in getting the camera 
>> to do
>> further research? If so, just drop me a mail and I will send it 
>> free-of-charge.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>   Wolfram
>>
>> PS: The camera still works. Just checked with another OS on a friend's 
>> machine.
>>
>> -- 
>> Pengutronix e.K.                           | Wolfram 
>> Sang                |
>> Industrial Linux Solutions                 | 
>> http://www.pengutronix.de/  |
>>
> 
> Hi,
> 
> If you want to do such a thing, I think it is very kind of you. As for 
> myself, I suspect that I already have three or four similar cameras, and 
> so I probably do not really need another one. Also, judging from your 
> e-mail address you are in Germany and I am in the US, making it a less 
> desirable prospect to ship such an object for such a distance.
> 
> Therefore, I would offer the suggestion that the camera should go to 
> Kyle Guin, who wrote the kernel support, or, if he is also in the US (I 
> do not know where he lives) then perhaps to Thomas Kaiser, who lives a 
> bit closer to you. I think that all three of us are equally interested 
> but as I said I do not believe that I need another one of these cameras. 
> In case that I have missed someone else who might be interested, that is 
> inadvertent on my part.

Hello Wolfram, Theodore and Kyle

While Theodore is mentioning my name and I live close to Germany, I show 
my interest for the cam. Anyway, if it is better to send to someone 
else, that's no problem for me.

Theodore and I exchanged some mails about the compression algorithm of 
this cam already and it would be nice for me to do something with the 
real hardware.

Anyway I showed my interest in the compression of the stream because the 
vendor ID is the same like the Pixart cams (PAC207, PAC7311) for which I 
wrote the initial drivers and found the decompression algorithm with the 
help of others.

Maybe the idea from Theodore to send the cam to me is not such a bad 
idea ;-)

Should we discuss here for some days to find out who can make the most 
progress with this cam?

Wolfram, thanks for the offer to donate the cam!

Thomas

Re: Donating a mr97310 based elta-media 8212dc (0x093a:0x010e)

[Theodore Kilgore]

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Thomas Kaiser wrote:

> On 04/30/2009 05:24 PM, Theodore Kilgore wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Wolfram Sang wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> I recently found an elta media dc8212 camera (usb-id: 0x093a:0x010e) in a 
>>> pile
>>> of old hardware. When looking for linux-support (out of curiosity, I don't 
>>> need
>>> the cam), I saw that there is activity regarding these types of camera
>>> (mr97310) right now. As I am currently busy in other departments of the 
>>> kernel,
>>> I was wondering if somebody here is interested in getting the camera to do
>>> further research? If so, just drop me a mail and I will send it 
>>> free-of-charge.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>   Wolfram
>>> 
>>> PS: The camera still works. Just checked with another OS on a friend's 
>>> machine.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Pengutronix e.K.                           | Wolfram Sang                |
>>> Industrial Linux Solutions                 | http://www.pengutronix.de/  |
>>> 
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> If you want to do such a thing, I think it is very kind of you. As for 
>> myself, I suspect that I already have three or four similar cameras, and so 
>> I probably do not really need another one. Also, judging from your e-mail 
>> address you are in Germany and I am in the US, making it a less desirable 
>> prospect to ship such an object for such a distance.
>> 
>> Therefore, I would offer the suggestion that the camera should go to Kyle 
>> Guin, who wrote the kernel support, or, if he is also in the US (I do not 
>> know where he lives) then perhaps to Thomas Kaiser, who lives a bit closer 
>> to you. I think that all three of us are equally interested but as I said I 
>> do not believe that I need another one of these cameras. In case that I 
>> have missed someone else who might be interested, that is inadvertent on my 
>> part.
>
> Hello Wolfram, Theodore and Kyle
>
> While Theodore is mentioning my name and I live close to Germany, I show my 
> interest for the cam. Anyway, if it is better to send to someone else, that's 
> no problem for me.
>
> Theodore and I exchanged some mails about the compression algorithm of this 
> cam already and it would be nice for me to do something with the real 
> hardware.
>
> Anyway I showed my interest in the compression of the stream because the 
> vendor ID is the same like the Pixart cams (PAC207, PAC7311) for which I 
> wrote the initial drivers and found the decompression algorithm with the help 
> of others.
>
> Maybe the idea from Theodore to send the cam to me is not such a bad idea ;-)
>
> Should we discuss here for some days to find out who can make the most 
> progress with this cam?
>
> Wolfram, thanks for the offer to donate the cam!
>
> Thomas
>

Good luck. Maybe the two of you can actually arrange a hardware swap over 
a beer.

Meanwhile I will continue to look at some debugging output over here and 
to see if I can figure anything out. Thomas, I intend to be in contact. It 
may all turn into sour milk, but I think that I have discovered a few 
things recently.


Theodore Kilgore

Re: Donating a mr97310 based elta-media 8212dc (0x093a:0x010e)

[Wolfram Sang]

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> Maybe the idea from Theodore to send the cam to me is not such a bad  
> idea ;-)

I agree :)

> Should we discuss here for some days to find out who can make the most  
> progress with this cam?

I'd like to have the case closed for me rather sooner than later. If you mail
me your address, I'll try to send the package tomorrow. Just in case Kyle has a
terribly big need for the cam, you can surely negotiate something. Maybe
passing dumps from time to time will help already...

> Wolfram, thanks for the offer to donate the cam!

You are very welcome.

Regards,

   Wolfram

-- 
Pengutronix e.K.                           | Wolfram Sang                |
Industrial Linux Solutions                 | http://www.pengutronix.de/  |

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Re: Donating a mr97310 based elta-media 8212dc (0x093a:0x010e)

[Wolfram Sang]

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Hi Theodore,

> know where he lives) then perhaps to Thomas Kaiser, who lives a bit 
> closer to you. I think that all three of us are equally interested but as 

Well, looks like I will send it to Thomas then. I'm glad that it can still be
useful.

> Judging from the Vendor:Product number which you report, it is one of the 
> small MR97310 cameras for which the OEM driver was called the "CIF"  
> driver. Indeed, these cameras are not supported right now, so the matter  
> is interesting.

I tried simply adding the usb-id to the list in mr97310a.c, but as that didn't
produce anything useful (green screen), I thought I'll leave it to the pros :)

> the SOF marker -- and this with the OEM driver software, too. But you say 
> that yours actually worked.

Yup, just downloaded some driver from the net (can look up the URL if needed).

> Finally, I would ask one question:
>
> In the libgphoto2 driver for these cameras, I have a listing for
>
> {"Elta Medi@ digi-cam", GP_DRIVER_STATUS_EXPERIMENTAL, 0x093a, 0x010e},
>
> Do you think this is the same camera, or a different one? Yours has a  

I am pretty sure this is the same camera. "elta medi@ digi-cam" is printed on
the front-side. The model number "8212DC" is just on a glued label on the
down-side which may not be present on all charges or may have been removed or
got lost somehow. I could make pictures of the cam if this helps.

> Also might you be interested to try it out as a still camera, with  
> libgphoto2, before surrendering it to someone else?

I am not at home this weekend, so I don't have access to my Linux-machines. I
have the camera with me as I tested it on a Windows machine here; I could
send it like tomorrow. Thomas, is it okay for you, if I leave this to you?

Regards,

   Wolfram

-- 
Pengutronix e.K.                           | Wolfram Sang                |
Industrial Linux Solutions                 | http://www.pengutronix.de/  |

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Re: Donating a mr97310 based elta-media 8212dc (0x093a:0x010e)

[Thomas Kaiser]

On 05/01/2009 10:47 AM, Wolfram Sang wrote:
> Thomas, is it okay for you, if I leave this to you?

Yes, I sent you my post address in private mail.
Lets see what I can find out with this cam ;-)

Thomas

Re: Donating a mr97310 based elta-media 8212dc (0x093a:0x010e)

[Theodore Kilgore]

On Fri, 1 May 2009, Wolfram Sang wrote:

> Hi Theodore,
>
>> know where he lives) then perhaps to Thomas Kaiser, who lives a bit
>> closer to you. I think that all three of us are equally interested but as
>
> Well, looks like I will send it to Thomas then. I'm glad that it can still be
> useful.

I am glad that this is so easily resolved. As I said, I do not know where 
Kyle lives. If he is somewhere like UK then it would have been possible to 
get it to him easily, too. But if he is in the US, like me, then it seems 
that sending the camera for such a distance would simply be impractical.

>
>> Judging from the Vendor:Product number which you report, it is one of the
>> small MR97310 cameras for which the OEM driver was called the "CIF"
>> driver. Indeed, these cameras are not supported right now, so the matter
>> is interesting.

I meant, not supported for streaming. The camera ought to be well 
supported as a still camera.

>
> I tried simply adding the usb-id to the list in mr97310a.c, but as that didn't
> produce anything useful (green screen), I thought I'll leave it to the pros :)

Heh. No, that is not enough. Been there. Done that.


<snip>

>> Finally, I would ask one question:
>>
>> In the libgphoto2 driver for these cameras, I have a listing for
>>
>> {"Elta Medi@ digi-cam", GP_DRIVER_STATUS_EXPERIMENTAL, 0x093a, 0x010e},
>>
>> Do you think this is the same camera, or a different one? Yours has a
>
> I am pretty sure this is the same camera. "elta medi@ digi-cam" is printed on
> the front-side. The model number "8212DC" is just on a glued label on the
> down-side which may not be present on all charges or may have been removed or
> got lost somehow. I could make pictures of the cam if this helps.

I have the impression you sent another mail, now, with the picture. I have 
not looked at the picture, actually. But the picture would probably not 
help me at all, because I myself have never seen one of these cameras. 
What I know about the camera is well summarized in the following entry 
from libgphoto2/camlibs/mars/ChangeLog:

2004-10-26  Theodore Kilgore <kilgota@auburn.edu>
         * library.c: ID for Haimei HE-501A, reported by
                      Scott MacKenzie <irrational@poboxes.com>
                      ID for Elta Medi@ digicam, reported by
                      Nils Naumann, <nau@gmx.net>
                      Support patch submitted by Scott, tested by Nils.
         * mars.c:    Scott's patch applied.
         * protocol.txt: byte codes for new 352x288 and 176x144 resolution
                         settings recorded; section "UPDATES and REVISIONS" 
added.

This is the total extent of my knowledge. It does seem, judging from the 
address of the person who sent me the information about it, and from 
yours, that the Elta brand is probably local to Europe.

Finally, one of the main reasons why I pass this on is to point out that 
especially in the cheap camera market there is lots of stuff out there 
which just has a name painted on a case, or the case looks kind of weird 
(shaped like a plastic dog, dragon, or squishy toy, attached to a pair of 
sunglasses as a "spy camera" or whatever) and the electronics inside is 
indistinguishable from 20 or 30 other devices, which do not come from the 
same "manufacturer" and may not even have a similar appearance, at all. Do 
I know all the Mars CIF cameras which have the USB ID of 0x093a:0x010e ?
  Almost certainly, I do not. Unfortunately, without the cooperation of the 
manufacturers of these devices that is practically impossible. Therefore 
let us pray that this non-cooperation somehow will get changed.

Theodore Kilgore

Re: Donating a mr97310 based elta-media 8212dc (0x093a:0x010e)

[hermann pitton]

Hello,

Am Freitag, den 01.05.2009, 12:40 -0500 schrieb Theodore Kilgore:
> 
> On Fri, 1 May 2009, Wolfram Sang wrote:
> 
> > Hi Theodore,
> >
> >> know where he lives) then perhaps to Thomas Kaiser, who lives a bit
> >> closer to you. I think that all three of us are equally interested but as
> >
> > Well, looks like I will send it to Thomas then. I'm glad that it can still be
> > useful.
> 
> I am glad that this is so easily resolved. As I said, I do not know where 
> Kyle lives. If he is somewhere like UK then it would have been possible to 
> get it to him easily, too. But if he is in the US, like me, then it seems 
> that sending the camera for such a distance would simply be impractical.
> 
> >
> >> Judging from the Vendor:Product number which you report, it is one of the
> >> small MR97310 cameras for which the OEM driver was called the "CIF"
> >> driver. Indeed, these cameras are not supported right now, so the matter
> >> is interesting.
> 
> I meant, not supported for streaming. The camera ought to be well 
> supported as a still camera.
> 
> >
> > I tried simply adding the usb-id to the list in mr97310a.c, but as that didn't
> > produce anything useful (green screen), I thought I'll leave it to the pros :)
> 
> Heh. No, that is not enough. Been there. Done that.
> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> >> Finally, I would ask one question:
> >>
> >> In the libgphoto2 driver for these cameras, I have a listing for
> >>
> >> {"Elta Medi@ digi-cam", GP_DRIVER_STATUS_EXPERIMENTAL, 0x093a, 0x010e},
> >>
> >> Do you think this is the same camera, or a different one? Yours has a
> >
> > I am pretty sure this is the same camera. "elta medi@ digi-cam" is printed on
> > the front-side. The model number "8212DC" is just on a glued label on the
> > down-side which may not be present on all charges or may have been removed or
> > got lost somehow. I could make pictures of the cam if this helps.
> 
> I have the impression you sent another mail, now, with the picture. I have 
> not looked at the picture, actually. But the picture would probably not 
> help me at all, because I myself have never seen one of these cameras. 
> What I know about the camera is well summarized in the following entry 
> from libgphoto2/camlibs/mars/ChangeLog:
> 
> 2004-10-26  Theodore Kilgore <kilgota@auburn.edu>
>          * library.c: ID for Haimei HE-501A, reported by
>                       Scott MacKenzie <irrational@poboxes.com>
>                       ID for Elta Medi@ digicam, reported by
>                       Nils Naumann, <nau@gmx.net>
>                       Support patch submitted by Scott, tested by Nils.
>          * mars.c:    Scott's patch applied.
>          * protocol.txt: byte codes for new 352x288 and 176x144 resolution
>                          settings recorded; section "UPDATES and REVISIONS" 
> added.
> 
> This is the total extent of my knowledge. It does seem, judging from the 
> address of the person who sent me the information about it, and from 
> yours, that the Elta brand is probably local to Europe.

for elta GmbH,

they are originally located in Germany and have a quite good reputation
for fancy lifestyle products, many imported from Asia, these days mostly
China, but started with quality products from Japan.

One of the services they also offer is to create new brands of products
for customers, coordinated over elta Hong Kong, which includes proper
package design, two years warranty and a readable user manual ;)

I have an early appearance of the saa7134 chip as elta medi@ 8682 LV
LifeView FlyVideo 3000 with remote and maybe the first TCL tuner seen
here. Copyright and Trademark Notice in the user manual.
(C) 2001 by Animations Technologies Inc. for this one.

Can be found searching for Elta at the www.bttv-gallery.de.

You can find all contact information for elta here.

http://www.elta.de

> Finally, one of the main reasons why I pass this on is to point out that 
> especially in the cheap camera market there is lots of stuff out there 
> which just has a name painted on a case, or the case looks kind of weird 
> (shaped like a plastic dog, dragon, or squishy toy, attached to a pair of 
> sunglasses as a "spy camera" or whatever) and the electronics inside is 
> indistinguishable from 20 or 30 other devices, which do not come from the 
> same "manufacturer" and may not even have a similar appearance, at all. Do 
> I know all the Mars CIF cameras which have the USB ID of 0x093a:0x010e ?
>   Almost certainly, I do not. Unfortunately, without the cooperation of the 
> manufacturers of these devices that is practically impossible. Therefore 
> let us pray that this non-cooperation somehow will get changed.
> 
> Theodore Kilgore

Cheers,
Hermann

Re: Donating a mr97310 based elta-media 8212dc (0x093a:0x010e)

[Theodore Kilgore]

On Fri, 1 May 2009, hermann pitton wrote:

> Hello,

<snip>

> for elta GmbH,
>
> they are originally located in Germany and have a quite good reputation
> for fancy lifestyle products, many imported from Asia, these days mostly
> China, but started with quality products from Japan.
>
> One of the services they also offer is to create new brands of products
> for customers, coordinated over elta Hong Kong, which includes proper
> package design, two years warranty and a readable user manual ;)
>
> I have an early appearance of the saa7134 chip as elta medi@ 8682 LV
> LifeView FlyVideo 3000 with remote and maybe the first TCL tuner seen
> here. Copyright and Trademark Notice in the user manual.
> (C) 2001 by Animations Technologies Inc. for this one.
>
> Can be found searching for Elta at the www.bttv-gallery.de.
>
> You can find all contact information for elta here.
>
> http://www.elta.de
>

<snip>

>> Theodore Kilgore
>
> Cheers,
> Hermann

Hermann,

What exactly are you saying? Is it that here seems to be a manufacturer 
(more accurately, a packager and importer) who might be willing actually 
to talk to us? That would be good news.

Also, unless I misunderstand, you seem to imply that some such kind of 
cooperation already exists. Can you say more about this?

Theodore Kilgore

Re: Donating a mr97310 based elta-media 8212dc (0x093a:0x010e)

[hermann pitton]

Am Freitag, den 01.05.2009, 15:33 -0500 schrieb Theodore Kilgore:
> 
> On Fri, 1 May 2009, hermann pitton wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > for elta GmbH,
> >
> > they are originally located in Germany and have a quite good reputation
> > for fancy lifestyle products, many imported from Asia, these days mostly
> > China, but started with quality products from Japan.
> >
> > One of the services they also offer is to create new brands of products
> > for customers, coordinated over elta Hong Kong, which includes proper
> > package design, two years warranty and a readable user manual ;)
> >
> > I have an early appearance of the saa7134 chip as elta medi@ 8682 LV
> > LifeView FlyVideo 3000 with remote and maybe the first TCL tuner seen
> > here. Copyright and Trademark Notice in the user manual.
> > (C) 2001 by Animations Technologies Inc. for this one.
> >
> > Can be found searching for Elta at the www.bttv-gallery.de.
> >
> > You can find all contact information for elta here.
> >
> > http://www.elta.de
> >
> 
> <snip>
> 
> >> Theodore Kilgore
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Hermann
> 
> Hermann,
> 
> What exactly are you saying? Is it that here seems to be a manufacturer 
> (more accurately, a packager and importer) who might be willing actually 
> to talk to us? That would be good news.
> 
> Also, unless I misunderstand, you seem to imply that some such kind of 
> cooperation already exists. Can you say more about this?
> 
> Theodore Kilgore

Theodore,

I just try to tell you that they are well known in Germany since decades
and that all contact data are publicly available. 

I did not try to contact them, since in the above case there was no
need. The elta medi@ 8682 LV has the the same PCI subsystem like the
original LifeView product and the TCL tuner was compatible with Philips
and others subsumed under tuner=5.

With the positive exception, that this tuner does not need to be tuned
to some higher frequencies for charge pump, before using radio, like the
compatible Philips types do need it, but on the other hand it had a new
huge SAW filter and sensitivity was a little diminished compared to
original Philips products. Else it had already known Philips chips and
nothing else.

To look at the Copyright in the user manual might give one some hint who
is behind such a product, like for that elta LifeView 3000.
That I'm telling. Animation Technologies in this case.

I also think it should be at least always worth a try to contact them,
in case you can't identify a product they do some marketing for.

Cheers,
Hermann

Re: Donating a mr97310 based elta-media 8212dc (0x093a:0x010e)

[Wolfram Sang]

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Hello Theodore,

> I have the impression you sent another mail, now, with the picture. I 

I didn't :) Just wanted to offer it, just in case...

> cameras. What I know about the camera is well summarized in the following 
> entry from libgphoto2/camlibs/mars/ChangeLog:

Okay. Well, as said before I am pretty sure it is the same camera. I'll ship it
tomorrow.

> This is the total extent of my knowledge. It does seem, judging from the  
> address of the person who sent me the information about it, and from  
> yours, that the Elta brand is probably local to Europe.

I'd think so, too.

> Finally, one of the main reasons why I pass this on is to point out that  
> especially in the cheap camera market there is lots of stuff out there  
> which just has a name painted on a case, [...]

...which is definately also the case here. Elta just imports stuff.

> Therefore let us pray that this non-cooperation somehow will get changed.

+1!

Regards,

   Wolfram

-- 
Pengutronix e.K.                           | Wolfram Sang                |
Industrial Linux Solutions                 | http://www.pengutronix.de/  |

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