Market research for new PowerPC system

Market research for new PowerPC system

[Konstantinos Margaritis]

(Sorry for the cross-posting, please ignore if you are not interested  
in this, CC me as I'm not subscribed)
Hi,

First some introductions. I'm Konstantinos Margaritis, a long time  
Amiga/BeOS/Linux user/developer and a PowerPC fan, former Debian  
Developer, also a SIMD/AltiVec fanatic and the author of libfreevec.  
I've posted this on the following sites:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29594&forum=33&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49424

http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11

http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=3768&forum=4

http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/market_research_new_powerpc_system#comment-12604

To anyone who is not a PowerPC user, it might seem like crazy, but  
here it goes:

I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC  
system (well, the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a  
case). No this is not a joke, I've been wanting to do this for a long  
time, and perhaps the chance will be given to me now. But before I  
spend any money on this, I want to do a little market research first.  
I know the market is literally "dying" for a new powerpc motherboard,  
but exactly how many are there that want to buy one?

Ok, let's give some rough specs first. I'm considering 3 choices -not  
in order of probability/importance:

1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher  
frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board  
would be prohibitive.
2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and  
includes a 2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise).  
Apart from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit  
ethernet, dual SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the  
MPC8610). So this one would lower the cost of the board quite much.  
Disadvantages: No AltiVec unit (it sucks I know), though it includes  
an SPE unit which is not that bad, and availability will be in Q3/Q4  
2010, so that's a long wait.

Now, the end motherboard will probably be MicroATX (in the 8640D/8610  
case) or PicoITX (in the P1022 case), and it will definitely include:

* SATA connectors
* USB (possibly 2 back and 2 front, but that's discussable)
* Dual gigabit (at least one will be there, in the case of the  
MPC8640D we might even have 4!!!)
* Sound (of course, SPDIF support will definitely be there)
* 1 PCI-e slot 1x
* 1 PCI-e slot (4x in the P1022 case, 8x in the MPC86xx cases)

Ok, what I want to know is if people would really really buy one of  
these. End price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022  
board or ~500EUR (definitely more in the case of 8640D) in the case of  
the other boards. Besides being more expensive, the MPC86xx chips,  
don't include SATA, USB and only one of ethernet/sound (quad-gige in  
MPC8640D case, or sound in the case of MPC8610). I know this sounds a  
lot, but it's the reality, there is not enough funding to build  
enormous amounts of units and bring the prices down substantially, we  
have to start low and build up from there. In case you are wondering,  
yes, the boards will be designed/produced by bPlan and funded by my  
company (Codex).

Support for OSes: Linux definitely, Haiku most probably and there is a  
possibility of supporting AmigaOS/MorphOS, which will depend on the  
actual feedback I get from those users.

I would like to make a list of everyone that is really interested in  
such a system, so it would really help me make a decision sooner  
rather than later if you would send me a few personal details to markos@codex.gr 
  with subject "PowerPC board":

* Name
* Country
* email (definitely, I'd have to reach you back!)
* Phone/Skype (optional, please include international prefix)
* Forum you saw this post (ok, Morphzone in this case)
* OS of preference
* board you would be most interested in (MPC8610/MPC8640D/P1022)
* preferred price (please have in mind the estimated price quotes I  
mentioned, it might be lower but that's not very probable)
* Other notes/comments

Also, I found out that I had to state my case on many forums to prove  
that this is not vapourware. Well, it will not be vapourware, if I get  
feedback. So far the feedback I got can be summarized here:

http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=60

Thanks a lot for your time and I hope this system becomes a reality.

Konstantinos Margaritis

Codex

Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

[Stephen Rothwell]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 568 bytes --]

Just in case anyone feels like flaming about this post, I allowed it
because I thought some of you may feel inclined to provide some technical
advise, enthusiasm for someone else building PowerPC systems.  If you
object, then just ignore the post ...

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 14:38:38 +0300 Konstantinos Margaritis <markos@codex.gr> wrote:
>
> (Sorry for the cross-posting, please ignore if you are not interested  
> in this, CC me as I'm not subscribed)
-- 
Cheers,
Stephen Rothwell                    sfr@canb.auug.org.au
http://www.canb.auug.org.au/~sfr/

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

[Guennadi Liakhovetski]

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, Konstantinos Margaritis wrote:

> (Sorry for the cross-posting, please ignore if you are not interested in this,
> CC me as I'm not subscribed)
> Hi,
> 
> First some introductions. I'm Konstantinos Margaritis, a long time
> Amiga/BeOS/Linux user/developer and a PowerPC fan, former Debian Developer,
> also a SIMD/AltiVec fanatic and the author of libfreevec. I've posted this on
> the following sites:
> 
> http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29594&forum=33&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0
> 
> http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49424
> 
> http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11
> 
> http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=3768&forum=4
> 
> http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/market_research_new_powerpc_system#comment-12604
> 
> To anyone who is not a PowerPC user, it might seem like crazy, but here it
> goes:
> 
> I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC system (well,
> the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a case). No this is not a
> joke, I've been wanting to do this for a long time, and perhaps the chance
> will be given to me now. But before I spend any money on this, I want to do a
> little market research first. I know the market is literally "dying" for a new
> powerpc motherboard, but exactly how many are there that want to buy one?

Ok, just a short comment. In principle I like diversity, competition, etc. 
And it was somewhat sad when Apple abandoned ppc. But honestly - why 
should I be buying a ppc desktop system? If we restrict our comparison to 
Linux, because that's what I'm using, what advantages would a ppc system 
give me over a comparable in price ix86 system? This is not meant 
negatively, I just have not followed recent ppc CPUs from the "desktop" 
range, so, this is a real honest question. Would such a system provide 
more MIPS per Watt at the same price? Or more periferals? Or some specific 
hardware blocks unavailable or unsupported om ix86?

Thanks
Guennadi

> 
> Ok, let's give some rough specs first. I'm considering 3 choices -not in order
> of probability/importance:
> 
> 1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher
> frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board would be
> prohibitive.
> 2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and includes a
> 2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
> 3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise). Apart
> from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit ethernet, dual
> SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the MPC8610). So this one
> would lower the cost of the board quite much. Disadvantages: No AltiVec unit
> (it sucks I know), though it includes an SPE unit which is not that bad, and
> availability will be in Q3/Q4 2010, so that's a long wait.
> 
> Now, the end motherboard will probably be MicroATX (in the 8640D/8610 case) or
> PicoITX (in the P1022 case), and it will definitely include:
> 
> * SATA connectors
> * USB (possibly 2 back and 2 front, but that's discussable)
> * Dual gigabit (at least one will be there, in the case of the MPC8640D we
> might even have 4!!!)
> * Sound (of course, SPDIF support will definitely be there)
> * 1 PCI-e slot 1x
> * 1 PCI-e slot (4x in the P1022 case, 8x in the MPC86xx cases)
> 
> Ok, what I want to know is if people would really really buy one of these. End
> price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022 board or ~500EUR
> (definitely more in the case of 8640D) in the case of the other boards.
> Besides being more expensive, the MPC86xx chips, don't include SATA, USB and
> only one of ethernet/sound (quad-gige in MPC8640D case, or sound in the case
> of MPC8610). I know this sounds a lot, but it's the reality, there is not
> enough funding to build enormous amounts of units and bring the prices down
> substantially, we have to start low and build up from there. In case you are
> wondering, yes, the boards will be designed/produced by bPlan and funded by my
> company (Codex).
> 
> Support for OSes: Linux definitely, Haiku most probably and there is a
> possibility of supporting AmigaOS/MorphOS, which will depend on the actual
> feedback I get from those users.
> 
> I would like to make a list of everyone that is really interested in such a
> system, so it would really help me make a decision sooner rather than later if
> you would send me a few personal details to markos@codex.gr with subject
> "PowerPC board":
> 
> * Name
> * Country
> * email (definitely, I'd have to reach you back!)
> * Phone/Skype (optional, please include international prefix)
> * Forum you saw this post (ok, Morphzone in this case)
> * OS of preference
> * board you would be most interested in (MPC8610/MPC8640D/P1022)
> * preferred price (please have in mind the estimated price quotes I mentioned,
> it might be lower but that's not very probable)
> * Other notes/comments
> 
> Also, I found out that I had to state my case on many forums to prove that
> this is not vapourware. Well, it will not be vapourware, if I get feedback. So
> far the feedback I got can be summarized here:
> 
> http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=60
> 
> Thanks a lot for your time and I hope this system becomes a reality.
> 
> Konstantinos Margaritis
> 
> Codex
> _______________________________________________
> Linuxppc-dev mailing list
> Linuxppc-dev@lists.ozlabs.org
> https://lists.ozlabs.org/listinfo/linuxppc-dev

---
Guennadi Liakhovetski, Ph.D.
Freelance Open-Source Software Developer
http://www.open-technology.de/

Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

[Leon Woestenberg]

Hello,

first off, I like your idea. This is my public reply, I'll give a
personal reply later.

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Konstantinos Margaritis
<markos@codex.gr> wrote:
> I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC system
> (well, the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a case). No this
>
What makes the system stand out, from say a Atom based PC?

(I know, playing devil's advocate here)

> 1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher
> frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board would be
> prohibitive.
> 2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and includes
> a 2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
> 3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise). Apart
> from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit ethernet,
> dual SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the MPC8610). So this
>

Go for QorIQ P1022, it's the ideal SoC for many applications.

Alternatively, it's predecessor MPC8536E available now, ~same specs,
but higher power.  But not the two you mention please.

> End price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022 board or ~500EUR
>
Pico P1022 or Pico MPC8536E pls.

and throw PCI Express (x4) in the party!

(hint: I haven't seen an Intel board with Atom and PCI Express yet).

Will the board be open hardware? I.e. an open sourced design?


Regards,
-- 
Leon

Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

[Konstantinos Margaritis]

> What makes the system stand out, from say a Atom based PC?

As you said, PCI Express, *actual* low power and probably higher speed  
-all cpus mention are faster than the Atom at least in relative terms.  
The SoC design means less components on the board, so smaller sizes  
might be achieved.

> Go for QorIQ P1022, it's the ideal SoC for many applications.
>
I know, I like the chip very much, the thing is that it won't be  
available till Q4/2010, so it will take quite a bit more thinking.

> Alternatively, it's predecessor MPC8536E available now, ~same specs,
> but higher power.  But not the two you mention please.

Why not? I mean seriously, why would you dislike them?

>> End price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022 board or  
>> ~500EUR
>>
> Pico P1022 or Pico MPC8536E pls.

> and throw PCI Express (x4) in the party!

definetely PCI Express for all CPUs anyway.

> (hint: I haven't seen an Intel board with Atom and PCI Express yet).
>
> Will the board be open hardware? I.e. an open sourced design?

I don't know yet, to be frank, I haven't thought about it, though I've  
worked with open source software for years, I have no experience  
whatsoever with open source hardware, I don't know the dangers,  
pitfalls, advantages, etc.

Konstantinos

Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

[Konstantinos Margaritis]

On Sep 26, 2009, at 8:58 PM, Guennadi Liakhovetski wrote:
>
> Ok, just a short comment. In principle I like diversity,  
> competition, etc.
> And it was somewhat sad when Apple abandoned ppc. But honestly - why
> should I be buying a ppc desktop system? If we restrict our  
> comparison to
> Linux, because that's what I'm using, what advantages would a ppc  
> system
> give me over a comparable in price ix86 system? This is not meant
> negatively, I just have not followed recent ppc CPUs from the  
> "desktop"
> range, so, this is a real honest question. Would such a system provide
> more MIPS per Watt at the same price? Or more periferals? Or some  
> specific
> hardware blocks unavailable or unsupported om ix86?

Ok, I remember a few years back when we had Alpha, MIPS, x86, SPARC,
PowerPC, etc all viable platforms to use and work on. Now it's only  
x86. I'm sorry,
I just don't like it. I cannot answer your question, no more than I  
can answer why
a car lover buys an old Jaguar antique for the price he could buy a  
new Audi S8
for example. Well, ok the analogy is not exactly the same, but you get  
the point.
If not, well, the ppc board would just lessen the current gap between  
x86/ppc in
favour of the -admittedly very small- ppc desktop/hobbyist market.  
Nevertheless,
I'm pretty sure the system would find itself in many ppc developers'  
desks, just
because they can't really buy something *new* with those specs, at  
this price range.
Ok, perhaps I will fail and just add my name to the list of failed  
hardware projects.
Perhaps not. I really don't know if I can convince you if you don't  
want to be convinced.
Deliver a super ppc system that beats all x86 systems at the same or  
better price? No,
I'm sorry I cannot do that, and I never implied I could. Only IBM/ 
Freescale could do that
and even then the game would not be in their favour.

Regards

Konstantinos

Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

[Guennadi Liakhovetski]

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, Konstantinos Margaritis wrote:

> 
> On Sep 26, 2009, at 8:58 PM, Guennadi Liakhovetski wrote:
> > 
> > Ok, just a short comment. In principle I like diversity, competition, etc.
> > And it was somewhat sad when Apple abandoned ppc. But honestly - why
> > should I be buying a ppc desktop system? If we restrict our comparison to
> > Linux, because that's what I'm using, what advantages would a ppc system
> > give me over a comparable in price ix86 system? This is not meant
> > negatively, I just have not followed recent ppc CPUs from the "desktop"
> > range, so, this is a real honest question. Would such a system provide
> > more MIPS per Watt at the same price? Or more periferals? Or some specific
> > hardware blocks unavailable or unsupported om ix86?
> 
> Ok, I remember a few years back when we had Alpha, MIPS, x86, SPARC,
> PowerPC, etc all viable platforms to use and work on. Now it's only x86. I'm sorry,
> I just don't like it. I cannot answer your question, no more than I can answer why
> a car lover buys an old Jaguar antique for the price he could buy a new Audi S8
> for example. Well, ok the analogy is not exactly the same, but you get the point.
> If not, well, the ppc board would just lessen the current gap between x86/ppc in
> favour of the -admittedly very small- ppc desktop/hobbyist market. Nevertheless,
> I'm pretty sure the system would find itself in many ppc developers' desks, just
> because they can't really buy something *new* with those specs, at this price range.
> Ok, perhaps I will fail and just add my name to the list of failed hardware projects.
> Perhaps not. I really don't know if I can convince you if you don't want to be convinced.
> Deliver a super ppc system that beats all x86 systems at the same or better price? No,
> I'm sorry I cannot do that, and I never implied I could. Only IBM/Freescale could do that
> and even then the game would not be in their favour.

Ok, fair enough, as I said, that wasn't meant as a pun. I'd really love to 
see non-x86 desktops _successful_ on the market, and I don't mean just 
ARM-based netbooks, nettops, tablets, etc.:-) So, good luck to you, and I 
really mean it! Interestingly, ppc competes on embedded, competes on 
servers, but practically absent on desktops (apart from a couple of 
hackintosh manufacturers:-)), so, maybe indeed there's still something 
that ppc can offer us that x86 cannot - as a self-contained system, and 
not just a development platform for ppc professionals?

Thanks
Guennadi
---
Guennadi Liakhovetski, Ph.D.
Freelance Open-Source Software Developer
http://www.open-technology.de/

Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

[Chris Friesen]

On 09/26/2009 05:38 AM, Konstantinos Margaritis wrote:

> I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC  
> system (well, the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a  
> case).

It might be interesting as a low-power system.  For a development box,
this looks more interesting:

http://www.fixstars.com/en/products/powerstation/specs.html

$1250 USD gets you two dual-core 2.5GHz 970MP chips.

Chris

Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

[Chris "Bigguy"]

Speaking for myself, and I'm a small-time consultant to the local Small-Off=
ice Home-Office market, I would wholeheartedly welcome the arrival to the m=
arket of a PowerPC/Power motherboard.  I would commission local builders to=
 create servers and desktops that would have that one extra layer of protec=
tion from malware.=0A=0AI believe it would also give developers a platform =
to hone their skills on a native platform for the embedded market.=0A=0AI w=
holeheartedly endorse the creation of a PowerPC/POWER motherboard.  I'll be=
 one of the first customers.=0A=0AAll my best - Chris Reich; Rochester, New=
 York=0A=0A=0A=0A--- On Mon, 9/28/09, Chris Friesen <cfriesen@nortel.com> w=
rote:=0A=0A> From: Chris Friesen <cfriesen@nortel.com>=0A> Subject: Re: Mar=
ket research for new PowerPC system=0A> To: "Konstantinos Margaritis" <mark=
os@codex.gr>=0A> Cc: linuxppc-dev@lists.ozlabs.org, debian-powerpc@lists.de=
bian.org, opensuse-ppc@opensuse.org=0A> Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 7=
:01 PM=0A> On 09/26/2009 05:38 AM, Konstantinos=0A> Margaritis wrote:=0A> =
=0A> > I'm considering funding the design & production of=0A> a new PowerPC=
=A0 =0A> > system (well, the motherboard, the rest are typical pc=0A> stuff=
 and a=A0 =0A> > case).=0A> =0A> It might be interesting as a low-power sys=
tem.=A0 For a=0A> development box,=0A> this looks more interesting:=0A> =0A=
> http://www.fixstars.com/en/products/powerstation/specs.html=0A> =0A> $125=
0 USD gets you two dual-core 2.5GHz 970MP chips.=0A> =0A> Chris=0A> =0A> =
=0A> -- =0A> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-REQUEST@lists.debian.o=
rg=0A> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.d=
ebian.org=0A> =0A> 

Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

[Brian Morris]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7025 bytes --]

I think that you should start out with something of the sub-netbook type.
These are the next generation and coming up very soon. For a home computer
you need at least dual core and at those speeds it will need a very low
price and small footprint.
If you could sneak in on the sub-net quick perhaps power could become 2nd to
ARM as AMD is to Intel. Intel is trying to sneak in but there could be some
anti-trust issues, especially if there are other contenders (maybe).

Its really too too bad PA-SEMI killed by apple last year. I am still mad
about that. That was a really really nice cpu, 2ghz and 7watt and 64bit.
Should have been illegal.

The  first subnetbook  may likely be an apple product, and a tablet with an
optional separate keyboard and a 9.5 inch screen, and the ARM cpu...



On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Guennadi Liakhovetski <
g.liakhovetski@gmx.de> wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, Konstantinos Margaritis wrote:
>
> > (Sorry for the cross-posting, please ignore if you are not interested in
> this,
> > CC me as I'm not subscribed)
> > Hi,
> >
> > First some introductions. I'm Konstantinos Margaritis, a long time
> > Amiga/BeOS/Linux user/developer and a PowerPC fan, former Debian
> Developer,
> > also a SIMD/AltiVec fanatic and the author of libfreevec. I've posted
> this on
> > the following sites:
> >
> >
> http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29594&forum=33&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0
> >
> > http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49424
> >
> >
> http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11
> >
> >
> http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=3768&forum=4
> >
> >
> http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/market_research_new_powerpc_system#comment-12604
> >
> > To anyone who is not a PowerPC user, it might seem like crazy, but here
> it
> > goes:
> >
> > I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC system
> (well,
> > the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a case). No this is
> not a
> > joke, I've been wanting to do this for a long time, and perhaps the
> chance
> > will be given to me now. But before I spend any money on this, I want to
> do a
> > little market research first. I know the market is literally "dying" for
> a new
> > powerpc motherboard, but exactly how many are there that want to buy one?
>
> Ok, just a short comment. In principle I like diversity, competition, etc.
> And it was somewhat sad when Apple abandoned ppc. But honestly - why
> should I be buying a ppc desktop system? If we restrict our comparison to
> Linux, because that's what I'm using, what advantages would a ppc system
> give me over a comparable in price ix86 system? This is not meant
> negatively, I just have not followed recent ppc CPUs from the "desktop"
> range, so, this is a real honest question. Would such a system provide
> more MIPS per Watt at the same price? Or more periferals? Or some specific
> hardware blocks unavailable or unsupported om ix86?
>
> Thanks
> Guennadi
>
> >
> > Ok, let's give some rough specs first. I'm considering 3 choices -not in
> order
> > of probability/importance:
> >
> > 1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher
> > frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board would
> be
> > prohibitive.
> > 2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and
> includes a
> > 2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
> > 3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise).
> Apart
> > from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit ethernet,
> dual
> > SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the MPC8610). So this
> one
> > would lower the cost of the board quite much. Disadvantages: No AltiVec
> unit
> > (it sucks I know), though it includes an SPE unit which is not that bad,
> and
> > availability will be in Q3/Q4 2010, so that's a long wait.
> >
> > Now, the end motherboard will probably be MicroATX (in the 8640D/8610
> case) or
> > PicoITX (in the P1022 case), and it will definitely include:
> >
> > * SATA connectors
> > * USB (possibly 2 back and 2 front, but that's discussable)
> > * Dual gigabit (at least one will be there, in the case of the MPC8640D
> we
> > might even have 4!!!)
> > * Sound (of course, SPDIF support will definitely be there)
> > * 1 PCI-e slot 1x
> > * 1 PCI-e slot (4x in the P1022 case, 8x in the MPC86xx cases)
> >
> > Ok, what I want to know is if people would really really buy one of
> these. End
> > price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022 board or ~500EUR
> > (definitely more in the case of 8640D) in the case of the other boards.
> > Besides being more expensive, the MPC86xx chips, don't include SATA, USB
> and
> > only one of ethernet/sound (quad-gige in MPC8640D case, or sound in the
> case
> > of MPC8610). I know this sounds a lot, but it's the reality, there is not
> > enough funding to build enormous amounts of units and bring the prices
> down
> > substantially, we have to start low and build up from there. In case you
> are
> > wondering, yes, the boards will be designed/produced by bPlan and funded
> by my
> > company (Codex).
> >
> > Support for OSes: Linux definitely, Haiku most probably and there is a
> > possibility of supporting AmigaOS/MorphOS, which will depend on the
> actual
> > feedback I get from those users.
> >
> > I would like to make a list of everyone that is really interested in such
> a
> > system, so it would really help me make a decision sooner rather than
> later if
> > you would send me a few personal details to markos@codex.gr with subject
> > "PowerPC board":
> >
> > * Name
> > * Country
> > * email (definitely, I'd have to reach you back!)
> > * Phone/Skype (optional, please include international prefix)
> > * Forum you saw this post (ok, Morphzone in this case)
> > * OS of preference
> > * board you would be most interested in (MPC8610/MPC8640D/P1022)
> > * preferred price (please have in mind the estimated price quotes I
> mentioned,
> > it might be lower but that's not very probable)
> > * Other notes/comments
> >
> > Also, I found out that I had to state my case on many forums to prove
> that
> > this is not vapourware. Well, it will not be vapourware, if I get
> feedback. So
> > far the feedback I got can be summarized here:
> >
> > http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=60
> >
> > Thanks a lot for your time and I hope this system becomes a reality.
> >
> > Konstantinos Margaritis
> >
> > Codex
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linuxppc-dev mailing list
> > Linuxppc-dev@lists.ozlabs.org
> > https://lists.ozlabs.org/listinfo/linuxppc-dev
>
> ---
> Guennadi Liakhovetski, Ph.D.
> Freelance Open-Source Software Developer
> http://www.open-technology.de/
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> listmaster@lists.debian.org
>
>

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Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

[Brian Morris]

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one other idea (sorry)
Debian is not providing an altivec optimized version. If you want that you
have to go with Gentoo. If you were building cpu optimized from the ground
up with the libaltivec and perhaps the c++ altivec libraries (that require
translation for the changed library calls to all the source codes that use
them -- ughh) -- it would be a lot more interesting. I've thought about
doing the Gentoo but its a lot of compiling, especially on slower cpus (I've
had some experience with fink and macports in MacOSX which want that too)


On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Guennadi Liakhovetski <
g.liakhovetski@gmx.de> wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, Konstantinos Margaritis wrote:
>
> > (Sorry for the cross-posting, please ignore if you are not interested in
> this,
> > CC me as I'm not subscribed)
> > Hi,
> >
> > First some introductions. I'm Konstantinos Margaritis, a long time
> > Amiga/BeOS/Linux user/developer and a PowerPC fan, former Debian
> Developer,
> > also a SIMD/AltiVec fanatic and the author of libfreevec. I've posted
> this on
> > the following sites:
> >
> >
> http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29594&forum=33&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0
> >
> > http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49424
> >
> >
> http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11
> >
> >
> http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=3768&forum=4
> >
> >
> http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/market_research_new_powerpc_system#comment-12604
> >
> > To anyone who is not a PowerPC user, it might seem like crazy, but here
> it
> > goes:
> >
> > I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC system
> (well,
> > the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a case). No this is
> not a
> > joke, I've been wanting to do this for a long time, and perhaps the
> chance
> > will be given to me now. But before I spend any money on this, I want to
> do a
> > little market research first. I know the market is literally "dying" for
> a new
> > powerpc motherboard, but exactly how many are there that want to buy one?
>
> Ok, just a short comment. In principle I like diversity, competition, etc.
> And it was somewhat sad when Apple abandoned ppc. But honestly - why
> should I be buying a ppc desktop system? If we restrict our comparison to
> Linux, because that's what I'm using, what advantages would a ppc system
> give me over a comparable in price ix86 system? This is not meant
> negatively, I just have not followed recent ppc CPUs from the "desktop"
> range, so, this is a real honest question. Would such a system provide
> more MIPS per Watt at the same price? Or more periferals? Or some specific
> hardware blocks unavailable or unsupported om ix86?
>
> Thanks
> Guennadi
>
> >
> > Ok, let's give some rough specs first. I'm considering 3 choices -not in
> order
> > of probability/importance:
> >
> > 1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher
> > frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board would
> be
> > prohibitive.
> > 2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and
> includes a
> > 2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
> > 3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise).
> Apart
> > from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit ethernet,
> dual
> > SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the MPC8610). So this
> one
> > would lower the cost of the board quite much. Disadvantages: No AltiVec
> unit
> > (it sucks I know), though it includes an SPE unit which is not that bad,
> and
> > availability will be in Q3/Q4 2010, so that's a long wait.
> >
> > Now, the end motherboard will probably be MicroATX (in the 8640D/8610
> case) or
> > PicoITX (in the P1022 case), and it will definitely include:
> >
> > * SATA connectors
> > * USB (possibly 2 back and 2 front, but that's discussable)
> > * Dual gigabit (at least one will be there, in the case of the MPC8640D
> we
> > might even have 4!!!)
> > * Sound (of course, SPDIF support will definitely be there)
> > * 1 PCI-e slot 1x
> > * 1 PCI-e slot (4x in the P1022 case, 8x in the MPC86xx cases)
> >
> > Ok, what I want to know is if people would really really buy one of
> these. End
> > price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022 board or ~500EUR
> > (definitely more in the case of 8640D) in the case of the other boards.
> > Besides being more expensive, the MPC86xx chips, don't include SATA, USB
> and
> > only one of ethernet/sound (quad-gige in MPC8640D case, or sound in the
> case
> > of MPC8610). I know this sounds a lot, but it's the reality, there is not
> > enough funding to build enormous amounts of units and bring the prices
> down
> > substantially, we have to start low and build up from there. In case you
> are
> > wondering, yes, the boards will be designed/produced by bPlan and funded
> by my
> > company (Codex).
> >
> > Support for OSes: Linux definitely, Haiku most probably and there is a
> > possibility of supporting AmigaOS/MorphOS, which will depend on the
> actual
> > feedback I get from those users.
> >
> > I would like to make a list of everyone that is really interested in such
> a
> > system, so it would really help me make a decision sooner rather than
> later if
> > you would send me a few personal details to markos@codex.gr with subject
> > "PowerPC board":
> >
> > * Name
> > * Country
> > * email (definitely, I'd have to reach you back!)
> > * Phone/Skype (optional, please include international prefix)
> > * Forum you saw this post (ok, Morphzone in this case)
> > * OS of preference
> > * board you would be most interested in (MPC8610/MPC8640D/P1022)
> > * preferred price (please have in mind the estimated price quotes I
> mentioned,
> > it might be lower but that's not very probable)
> > * Other notes/comments
> >
> > Also, I found out that I had to state my case on many forums to prove
> that
> > this is not vapourware. Well, it will not be vapourware, if I get
> feedback. So
> > far the feedback I got can be summarized here:
> >
> > http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=60
> >
> > Thanks a lot for your time and I hope this system becomes a reality.
> >
> > Konstantinos Margaritis
> >
> > Codex
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linuxppc-dev mailing list
> > Linuxppc-dev@lists.ozlabs.org
> > https://lists.ozlabs.org/listinfo/linuxppc-dev
>
> ---
> Guennadi Liakhovetski, Ph.D.
> Freelance Open-Source Software Developer
> http://www.open-technology.de/
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> listmaster@lists.debian.org
>
>

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