* Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
2009-09-26 17:58 ` Guennadi Liakhovetski
@ 2009-09-26 19:15 ` Konstantinos Margaritis
2009-09-26 20:49 ` Guennadi Liakhovetski
2009-09-29 3:46 ` Brian Morris
2009-09-29 3:54 ` Brian Morris
2 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Konstantinos Margaritis @ 2009-09-26 19:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Guennadi Liakhovetski; +Cc: debian-powerpc, linuxppc-dev
On Sep 26, 2009, at 8:58 PM, Guennadi Liakhovetski wrote:
>
> Ok, just a short comment. In principle I like diversity,
> competition, etc.
> And it was somewhat sad when Apple abandoned ppc. But honestly - why
> should I be buying a ppc desktop system? If we restrict our
> comparison to
> Linux, because that's what I'm using, what advantages would a ppc
> system
> give me over a comparable in price ix86 system? This is not meant
> negatively, I just have not followed recent ppc CPUs from the
> "desktop"
> range, so, this is a real honest question. Would such a system provide
> more MIPS per Watt at the same price? Or more periferals? Or some
> specific
> hardware blocks unavailable or unsupported om ix86?
Ok, I remember a few years back when we had Alpha, MIPS, x86, SPARC,
PowerPC, etc all viable platforms to use and work on. Now it's only
x86. I'm sorry,
I just don't like it. I cannot answer your question, no more than I
can answer why
a car lover buys an old Jaguar antique for the price he could buy a
new Audi S8
for example. Well, ok the analogy is not exactly the same, but you get
the point.
If not, well, the ppc board would just lessen the current gap between
x86/ppc in
favour of the -admittedly very small- ppc desktop/hobbyist market.
Nevertheless,
I'm pretty sure the system would find itself in many ppc developers'
desks, just
because they can't really buy something *new* with those specs, at
this price range.
Ok, perhaps I will fail and just add my name to the list of failed
hardware projects.
Perhaps not. I really don't know if I can convince you if you don't
want to be convinced.
Deliver a super ppc system that beats all x86 systems at the same or
better price? No,
I'm sorry I cannot do that, and I never implied I could. Only IBM/
Freescale could do that
and even then the game would not be in their favour.
Regards
Konstantinos
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
2009-09-26 19:15 ` Konstantinos Margaritis
@ 2009-09-26 20:49 ` Guennadi Liakhovetski
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Guennadi Liakhovetski @ 2009-09-26 20:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Konstantinos Margaritis; +Cc: debian-powerpc, linuxppc-dev
On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, Konstantinos Margaritis wrote:
>
> On Sep 26, 2009, at 8:58 PM, Guennadi Liakhovetski wrote:
> >
> > Ok, just a short comment. In principle I like diversity, competition, etc.
> > And it was somewhat sad when Apple abandoned ppc. But honestly - why
> > should I be buying a ppc desktop system? If we restrict our comparison to
> > Linux, because that's what I'm using, what advantages would a ppc system
> > give me over a comparable in price ix86 system? This is not meant
> > negatively, I just have not followed recent ppc CPUs from the "desktop"
> > range, so, this is a real honest question. Would such a system provide
> > more MIPS per Watt at the same price? Or more periferals? Or some specific
> > hardware blocks unavailable or unsupported om ix86?
>
> Ok, I remember a few years back when we had Alpha, MIPS, x86, SPARC,
> PowerPC, etc all viable platforms to use and work on. Now it's only x86. I'm sorry,
> I just don't like it. I cannot answer your question, no more than I can answer why
> a car lover buys an old Jaguar antique for the price he could buy a new Audi S8
> for example. Well, ok the analogy is not exactly the same, but you get the point.
> If not, well, the ppc board would just lessen the current gap between x86/ppc in
> favour of the -admittedly very small- ppc desktop/hobbyist market. Nevertheless,
> I'm pretty sure the system would find itself in many ppc developers' desks, just
> because they can't really buy something *new* with those specs, at this price range.
> Ok, perhaps I will fail and just add my name to the list of failed hardware projects.
> Perhaps not. I really don't know if I can convince you if you don't want to be convinced.
> Deliver a super ppc system that beats all x86 systems at the same or better price? No,
> I'm sorry I cannot do that, and I never implied I could. Only IBM/Freescale could do that
> and even then the game would not be in their favour.
Ok, fair enough, as I said, that wasn't meant as a pun. I'd really love to
see non-x86 desktops _successful_ on the market, and I don't mean just
ARM-based netbooks, nettops, tablets, etc.:-) So, good luck to you, and I
really mean it! Interestingly, ppc competes on embedded, competes on
servers, but practically absent on desktops (apart from a couple of
hackintosh manufacturers:-)), so, maybe indeed there's still something
that ppc can offer us that x86 cannot - as a self-contained system, and
not just a development platform for ppc professionals?
Thanks
Guennadi
---
Guennadi Liakhovetski, Ph.D.
Freelance Open-Source Software Developer
http://www.open-technology.de/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
2009-09-26 17:58 ` Guennadi Liakhovetski
2009-09-26 19:15 ` Konstantinos Margaritis
@ 2009-09-29 3:46 ` Brian Morris
2009-09-29 3:54 ` Brian Morris
2 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Brian Morris @ 2009-09-29 3:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Guennadi Liakhovetski
Cc: Konstantinos Margaritis, debian-powerpc, linuxppc-dev, opensuse-ppc
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7025 bytes --]
I think that you should start out with something of the sub-netbook type.
These are the next generation and coming up very soon. For a home computer
you need at least dual core and at those speeds it will need a very low
price and small footprint.
If you could sneak in on the sub-net quick perhaps power could become 2nd to
ARM as AMD is to Intel. Intel is trying to sneak in but there could be some
anti-trust issues, especially if there are other contenders (maybe).
Its really too too bad PA-SEMI killed by apple last year. I am still mad
about that. That was a really really nice cpu, 2ghz and 7watt and 64bit.
Should have been illegal.
The first subnetbook may likely be an apple product, and a tablet with an
optional separate keyboard and a 9.5 inch screen, and the ARM cpu...
On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Guennadi Liakhovetski <
g.liakhovetski@gmx.de> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, Konstantinos Margaritis wrote:
>
> > (Sorry for the cross-posting, please ignore if you are not interested in
> this,
> > CC me as I'm not subscribed)
> > Hi,
> >
> > First some introductions. I'm Konstantinos Margaritis, a long time
> > Amiga/BeOS/Linux user/developer and a PowerPC fan, former Debian
> Developer,
> > also a SIMD/AltiVec fanatic and the author of libfreevec. I've posted
> this on
> > the following sites:
> >
> >
> http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29594&forum=33&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0
> >
> > http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49424
> >
> >
> http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11
> >
> >
> http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=3768&forum=4
> >
> >
> http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/market_research_new_powerpc_system#comment-12604
> >
> > To anyone who is not a PowerPC user, it might seem like crazy, but here
> it
> > goes:
> >
> > I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC system
> (well,
> > the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a case). No this is
> not a
> > joke, I've been wanting to do this for a long time, and perhaps the
> chance
> > will be given to me now. But before I spend any money on this, I want to
> do a
> > little market research first. I know the market is literally "dying" for
> a new
> > powerpc motherboard, but exactly how many are there that want to buy one?
>
> Ok, just a short comment. In principle I like diversity, competition, etc.
> And it was somewhat sad when Apple abandoned ppc. But honestly - why
> should I be buying a ppc desktop system? If we restrict our comparison to
> Linux, because that's what I'm using, what advantages would a ppc system
> give me over a comparable in price ix86 system? This is not meant
> negatively, I just have not followed recent ppc CPUs from the "desktop"
> range, so, this is a real honest question. Would such a system provide
> more MIPS per Watt at the same price? Or more periferals? Or some specific
> hardware blocks unavailable or unsupported om ix86?
>
> Thanks
> Guennadi
>
> >
> > Ok, let's give some rough specs first. I'm considering 3 choices -not in
> order
> > of probability/importance:
> >
> > 1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher
> > frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board would
> be
> > prohibitive.
> > 2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and
> includes a
> > 2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
> > 3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise).
> Apart
> > from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit ethernet,
> dual
> > SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the MPC8610). So this
> one
> > would lower the cost of the board quite much. Disadvantages: No AltiVec
> unit
> > (it sucks I know), though it includes an SPE unit which is not that bad,
> and
> > availability will be in Q3/Q4 2010, so that's a long wait.
> >
> > Now, the end motherboard will probably be MicroATX (in the 8640D/8610
> case) or
> > PicoITX (in the P1022 case), and it will definitely include:
> >
> > * SATA connectors
> > * USB (possibly 2 back and 2 front, but that's discussable)
> > * Dual gigabit (at least one will be there, in the case of the MPC8640D
> we
> > might even have 4!!!)
> > * Sound (of course, SPDIF support will definitely be there)
> > * 1 PCI-e slot 1x
> > * 1 PCI-e slot (4x in the P1022 case, 8x in the MPC86xx cases)
> >
> > Ok, what I want to know is if people would really really buy one of
> these. End
> > price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022 board or ~500EUR
> > (definitely more in the case of 8640D) in the case of the other boards.
> > Besides being more expensive, the MPC86xx chips, don't include SATA, USB
> and
> > only one of ethernet/sound (quad-gige in MPC8640D case, or sound in the
> case
> > of MPC8610). I know this sounds a lot, but it's the reality, there is not
> > enough funding to build enormous amounts of units and bring the prices
> down
> > substantially, we have to start low and build up from there. In case you
> are
> > wondering, yes, the boards will be designed/produced by bPlan and funded
> by my
> > company (Codex).
> >
> > Support for OSes: Linux definitely, Haiku most probably and there is a
> > possibility of supporting AmigaOS/MorphOS, which will depend on the
> actual
> > feedback I get from those users.
> >
> > I would like to make a list of everyone that is really interested in such
> a
> > system, so it would really help me make a decision sooner rather than
> later if
> > you would send me a few personal details to markos@codex.gr with subject
> > "PowerPC board":
> >
> > * Name
> > * Country
> > * email (definitely, I'd have to reach you back!)
> > * Phone/Skype (optional, please include international prefix)
> > * Forum you saw this post (ok, Morphzone in this case)
> > * OS of preference
> > * board you would be most interested in (MPC8610/MPC8640D/P1022)
> > * preferred price (please have in mind the estimated price quotes I
> mentioned,
> > it might be lower but that's not very probable)
> > * Other notes/comments
> >
> > Also, I found out that I had to state my case on many forums to prove
> that
> > this is not vapourware. Well, it will not be vapourware, if I get
> feedback. So
> > far the feedback I got can be summarized here:
> >
> > http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=60
> >
> > Thanks a lot for your time and I hope this system becomes a reality.
> >
> > Konstantinos Margaritis
> >
> > Codex
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linuxppc-dev mailing list
> > Linuxppc-dev@lists.ozlabs.org
> > https://lists.ozlabs.org/listinfo/linuxppc-dev
>
> ---
> Guennadi Liakhovetski, Ph.D.
> Freelance Open-Source Software Developer
> http://www.open-technology.de/
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> listmaster@lists.debian.org
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
2009-09-26 17:58 ` Guennadi Liakhovetski
2009-09-26 19:15 ` Konstantinos Margaritis
2009-09-29 3:46 ` Brian Morris
@ 2009-09-29 3:54 ` Brian Morris
2 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Brian Morris @ 2009-09-29 3:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Guennadi Liakhovetski
Cc: Konstantinos Margaritis, debian-powerpc, linuxppc-dev, opensuse-ppc
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6781 bytes --]
one other idea (sorry)
Debian is not providing an altivec optimized version. If you want that you
have to go with Gentoo. If you were building cpu optimized from the ground
up with the libaltivec and perhaps the c++ altivec libraries (that require
translation for the changed library calls to all the source codes that use
them -- ughh) -- it would be a lot more interesting. I've thought about
doing the Gentoo but its a lot of compiling, especially on slower cpus (I've
had some experience with fink and macports in MacOSX which want that too)
On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Guennadi Liakhovetski <
g.liakhovetski@gmx.de> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, Konstantinos Margaritis wrote:
>
> > (Sorry for the cross-posting, please ignore if you are not interested in
> this,
> > CC me as I'm not subscribed)
> > Hi,
> >
> > First some introductions. I'm Konstantinos Margaritis, a long time
> > Amiga/BeOS/Linux user/developer and a PowerPC fan, former Debian
> Developer,
> > also a SIMD/AltiVec fanatic and the author of libfreevec. I've posted
> this on
> > the following sites:
> >
> >
> http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29594&forum=33&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0
> >
> > http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49424
> >
> >
> http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11
> >
> >
> http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=3768&forum=4
> >
> >
> http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/market_research_new_powerpc_system#comment-12604
> >
> > To anyone who is not a PowerPC user, it might seem like crazy, but here
> it
> > goes:
> >
> > I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC system
> (well,
> > the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a case). No this is
> not a
> > joke, I've been wanting to do this for a long time, and perhaps the
> chance
> > will be given to me now. But before I spend any money on this, I want to
> do a
> > little market research first. I know the market is literally "dying" for
> a new
> > powerpc motherboard, but exactly how many are there that want to buy one?
>
> Ok, just a short comment. In principle I like diversity, competition, etc.
> And it was somewhat sad when Apple abandoned ppc. But honestly - why
> should I be buying a ppc desktop system? If we restrict our comparison to
> Linux, because that's what I'm using, what advantages would a ppc system
> give me over a comparable in price ix86 system? This is not meant
> negatively, I just have not followed recent ppc CPUs from the "desktop"
> range, so, this is a real honest question. Would such a system provide
> more MIPS per Watt at the same price? Or more periferals? Or some specific
> hardware blocks unavailable or unsupported om ix86?
>
> Thanks
> Guennadi
>
> >
> > Ok, let's give some rough specs first. I'm considering 3 choices -not in
> order
> > of probability/importance:
> >
> > 1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher
> > frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board would
> be
> > prohibitive.
> > 2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and
> includes a
> > 2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
> > 3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise).
> Apart
> > from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit ethernet,
> dual
> > SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the MPC8610). So this
> one
> > would lower the cost of the board quite much. Disadvantages: No AltiVec
> unit
> > (it sucks I know), though it includes an SPE unit which is not that bad,
> and
> > availability will be in Q3/Q4 2010, so that's a long wait.
> >
> > Now, the end motherboard will probably be MicroATX (in the 8640D/8610
> case) or
> > PicoITX (in the P1022 case), and it will definitely include:
> >
> > * SATA connectors
> > * USB (possibly 2 back and 2 front, but that's discussable)
> > * Dual gigabit (at least one will be there, in the case of the MPC8640D
> we
> > might even have 4!!!)
> > * Sound (of course, SPDIF support will definitely be there)
> > * 1 PCI-e slot 1x
> > * 1 PCI-e slot (4x in the P1022 case, 8x in the MPC86xx cases)
> >
> > Ok, what I want to know is if people would really really buy one of
> these. End
> > price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022 board or ~500EUR
> > (definitely more in the case of 8640D) in the case of the other boards.
> > Besides being more expensive, the MPC86xx chips, don't include SATA, USB
> and
> > only one of ethernet/sound (quad-gige in MPC8640D case, or sound in the
> case
> > of MPC8610). I know this sounds a lot, but it's the reality, there is not
> > enough funding to build enormous amounts of units and bring the prices
> down
> > substantially, we have to start low and build up from there. In case you
> are
> > wondering, yes, the boards will be designed/produced by bPlan and funded
> by my
> > company (Codex).
> >
> > Support for OSes: Linux definitely, Haiku most probably and there is a
> > possibility of supporting AmigaOS/MorphOS, which will depend on the
> actual
> > feedback I get from those users.
> >
> > I would like to make a list of everyone that is really interested in such
> a
> > system, so it would really help me make a decision sooner rather than
> later if
> > you would send me a few personal details to markos@codex.gr with subject
> > "PowerPC board":
> >
> > * Name
> > * Country
> > * email (definitely, I'd have to reach you back!)
> > * Phone/Skype (optional, please include international prefix)
> > * Forum you saw this post (ok, Morphzone in this case)
> > * OS of preference
> > * board you would be most interested in (MPC8610/MPC8640D/P1022)
> > * preferred price (please have in mind the estimated price quotes I
> mentioned,
> > it might be lower but that's not very probable)
> > * Other notes/comments
> >
> > Also, I found out that I had to state my case on many forums to prove
> that
> > this is not vapourware. Well, it will not be vapourware, if I get
> feedback. So
> > far the feedback I got can be summarized here:
> >
> > http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=60
> >
> > Thanks a lot for your time and I hope this system becomes a reality.
> >
> > Konstantinos Margaritis
> >
> > Codex
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linuxppc-dev mailing list
> > Linuxppc-dev@lists.ozlabs.org
> > https://lists.ozlabs.org/listinfo/linuxppc-dev
>
> ---
> Guennadi Liakhovetski, Ph.D.
> Freelance Open-Source Software Developer
> http://www.open-technology.de/
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> listmaster@lists.debian.org
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread