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From: Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net>
To: Daniel Wagner <daniel.wagner@bmw-carit.de>
Cc: Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com>,
	"open list:DOCUMENTATION" <linux-doc@vger.kernel.org>,
	Gilles.Muller@lip6.fr, Takashi Iwai <tiwai@suse.de>,
	Daniel Wagner <wagi@monom.org>, Ming Lei <ming.lei@canonical.com>,
	Stephen Boyd <stephen.boyd@linaro.org>,
	Kay Sievers <kay@vrfy.org>,
	Bjorn Andersson <bjorn.andersson@linaro.org>,
	Tom Gundersen <teg@jklm.no>, Alessandro Rubini <rubini@gnudd.com>,
	Christian Lamparter <chunkeey@googlemail.com>,
	Josh Boyer <jwboyer@fedoraproject.org>,
	Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net>,
	Kevin Cernekee <cernekee@gmail.com>,
	Jacek Anaszewski <j.anaszewski@samsung.com>,
	Thierry Martinez <martinez@nsup.org>,
	linux-serial <linux-serial@vger.kernel.org>,
	Daniel Vetter <daniel.vetter@ffwll.ch>,
	Mimi Zohar <zohar@linux.vnet.ibm.com>,
	David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>,
	Jeff Mahoney <jeffm@suse.com>, Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
	Jouni
Subject: Re: [RFC] fs: add userspace critical mounts event support
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 03:21:07 -0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALCETrVtuiKaJ+z3hSLGYs3robuORJv+N5Z19t0XUzUNynqZDA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <cdd43459-346f-c8e9-e8fc-25bd81e9f0ea@bmw-carit.de>

On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 1:13 AM, Daniel Wagner
<daniel.wagner@bmw-carit.de> wrote:
> [CC: added Harald]
>
> As Harald pointed out over a beer yesterday evening, there is at least
> one more reason why UMH isn't obsolete. The ordering of the firmware loading
> might be of important. Say you want to greet the user with a splash screen
> really early on, the graphic card firmware should be loaded first. Also the
> automotive world has this fancy requirement that rear camera must be on the
> screen within 2 seconds. So controlling the firmware loading order is of
> importance (e.g. also do not overcommit the I/O bandwith not so important
> firmwares). A user space helper is able to prioritize the request
> accordingly the use case.

That seems like a valid problem, but I don't think that UMH adequately
solves it.  Sure, loading firmware in the right order avoids a >2sec
delay due to firmware loading, but what happens when you have a slow
USB device that *doesn't* need firmware plugged in to your car's shiny
USB port when you start the car?

It seems to me that this use case requires explicit control over
device probing and, if that gets added, you get your firmware ordering
for free (just probe the important devices first).

--Andy

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net>
To: Daniel Wagner <daniel.wagner@bmw-carit.de>
Cc: "Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@kernel.org>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	Jiri Kosina <jkosina@suse.cz>,
	Johannes Berg <johannes@sipsolutions.net>,
	Jouni Malinen <j@w1.fi>,
	Seth Forshee <seth.forshee@canonical.com>,
	Tom Gundersen <teg@jklm.no>, Kay Sievers <kay@vrfy.org>,
	Bjorn Andersson <bjorn.andersson@linaro.org>,
	Daniel Wagner <wagi@monom.org>,
	"Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@rjwysocki.net>,
	"Herbert, Marc" <marc.herbert@intel.com>,
	Daniel Vetter <daniel.vetter@ffwll.ch>,
	Rob Landley <rob@landley.net>,
	Mimi Zohar <zohar@linux.vnet.ibm.com>,
	Felix Fietkau <nbd@nbd.name>,
	David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>,
	Roman Pen <r.peniaev@gmail.com>,
	Ming Lei <ming.lei@canonical.com>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	Michal Marek <mmarek@suse.com>,
	Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Vikram Mulukutla <markivx@codeaurora.org>,
	Stephen Boyd <stephen.boyd@linaro.org>,
	Mark Brown <broonie@kernel.org>, Takashi Iwai <tiwai@suse.de>,
	Christian Lamparter <chunkeey@googlemail.com>,
	Hauke Mehrtens <hauke@hauke-m.de>,
	Josh Boyer <jwboyer@fedoraproject.org>,
	Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com>,
	Jiri Slaby <jslaby@suse.com>,
	Wu Fengguang <fengguang.wu@intel.com>,
	Richard Purdie <rpurdie@rpsys.net>, Jeff Mahoney <jeffm@suse.com>,
	Jacek Anaszewski <j.anaszewski@samsung.com>,
	Abhay_Salunke@dell.com, Julia Lawall <Julia.Lawall@lip6.fr>,
	Gilles.Muller@lip6.fr, nicolas.palix@imag.fr,
	David Howells <dhowells@redhat.com>,
	Alessandro Rubini <rubini@gnudd.com>,
	Kevin Cernekee <cernekee@gmail.com>,
	Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
	Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net>,
	Thierry Martinez <martinez@nsup.org>,
	linux-serial <linux-serial@vger.kernel.org>,
	"open list:DOCUMENTATION" <linux-doc@vger.kernel.org>,
	linuxppc-dev <linuxppc-dev@lists.ozlabs.org>,
	Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org>,
	Harald Hoyer <harald@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC] fs: add userspace critical mounts event support
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 03:21:07 -0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALCETrVtuiKaJ+z3hSLGYs3robuORJv+N5Z19t0XUzUNynqZDA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <cdd43459-346f-c8e9-e8fc-25bd81e9f0ea@bmw-carit.de>

On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 1:13 AM, Daniel Wagner
<daniel.wagner@bmw-carit.de> wrote:
> [CC: added Harald]
>
> As Harald pointed out over a beer yesterday evening, there is at least
> one more reason why UMH isn't obsolete. The ordering of the firmware loading
> might be of important. Say you want to greet the user with a splash screen
> really early on, the graphic card firmware should be loaded first. Also the
> automotive world has this fancy requirement that rear camera must be on the
> screen within 2 seconds. So controlling the firmware loading order is of
> importance (e.g. also do not overcommit the I/O bandwith not so important
> firmwares). A user space helper is able to prioritize the request
> accordingly the use case.

That seems like a valid problem, but I don't think that UMH adequately
solves it.  Sure, loading firmware in the right order avoids a >2sec
delay due to firmware loading, but what happens when you have a slow
USB device that *doesn't* need firmware plugged in to your car's shiny
USB port when you start the car?

It seems to me that this use case requires explicit control over
device probing and, if that gets added, you get your firmware ordering
for free (just probe the important devices first).

--Andy

  reply	other threads:[~2016-11-09 11:21 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 145+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2016-06-16 22:54 [PATCH v2 0/5] firmware: add SmPL grammar to avoid issues Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-06-16 22:54 ` [PATCH v2 1/5] MAINTAINERS: extend firmware_class maintainer list Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-06-16 22:54 ` [PATCH v2 2/5] firmware: annotate thou shalt not request fw on init or probe Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-06-16 22:54   ` [Cocci] " Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-06-16 22:54   ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-08-24  6:55   ` Daniel Vetter
2016-08-24  6:55     ` [Cocci] " Daniel Vetter
2016-08-24  6:55     ` Daniel Vetter
2016-08-24 20:39     ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-08-24 20:39       ` [Cocci] " Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-08-24 20:39       ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-08-25 11:05       ` Daniel Vetter
2016-08-25 11:05         ` [Cocci] " Daniel Vetter
2016-08-25 11:05         ` Daniel Vetter
2016-08-25 19:41         ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-08-25 19:41           ` [Cocci] " Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-08-25 19:41           ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-08-25 20:10           ` Daniel Vetter
2016-08-25 20:10             ` [Cocci] " Daniel Vetter
2016-08-25 20:10             ` Daniel Vetter
2016-08-25 20:25             ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-08-25 20:25               ` [Cocci] " Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-08-25 20:25               ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-08-25 20:30           ` Dmitry Torokhov
2016-08-25 20:30             ` [Cocci] " Dmitry Torokhov
2016-08-25 20:30             ` Dmitry Torokhov
2016-09-02 23:59           ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-02 23:59             ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-03  0:20             ` [RFC] fs: add userspace critical mounts event support Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-03  0:20               ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-03  4:11               ` Linus Torvalds
2016-09-03  4:11                 ` Linus Torvalds
2016-09-03  4:20                 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2016-09-03  4:20                   ` Dmitry Torokhov
2016-09-03  4:41                   ` Linus Torvalds
2016-09-03  4:41                     ` Linus Torvalds
2016-09-03 17:49                     ` Dmitry Torokhov
2016-09-03 17:49                       ` Dmitry Torokhov
2016-09-03 18:01                       ` Linus Torvalds
2016-09-03 18:01                         ` Linus Torvalds
2016-09-03 18:10                         ` Dmitry Torokhov
2016-09-03 18:10                           ` Dmitry Torokhov
2016-09-06 21:52                           ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-06 21:52                             ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-06 22:28                             ` Bjorn Andersson
2016-09-06 22:28                               ` Bjorn Andersson
2016-09-06 23:14                               ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-06 23:14                                 ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-24  1:37                           ` Herbert, Marc
2016-09-24  1:37                           ` Herbert, Marc
2016-09-24  1:37                           ` Herbert, Marc
2016-09-24  1:37                             ` Herbert, Marc
2016-09-24 17:41                             ` Dmitry Torokhov
2016-09-24 17:41                               ` Dmitry Torokhov
2016-10-05  0:00                               ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-10-05  0:12                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2016-10-05  0:24                                   ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-10-05  0:32                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2016-10-05 17:38                                       ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-10-05  1:48                                   ` Josh Triplett
2016-10-05  1:58                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2016-09-06 17:46                 ` Bjorn Andersson
2016-09-06 17:46                   ` Bjorn Andersson
2016-09-06 18:32                   ` Linus Torvalds
2016-09-06 18:32                     ` Linus Torvalds
2016-09-06 21:11                     ` Bjorn Andersson
2016-09-06 21:11                       ` Bjorn Andersson
2016-09-06 21:50                       ` Linus Torvalds
2016-09-06 21:50                         ` Linus Torvalds
2016-09-06 23:04                         ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-06 23:04                           ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-24  2:51                           ` Herbert, Marc
2016-10-04 23:28                             ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-06 22:32                     ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-06 22:32                       ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-14  2:38               ` Rob Landley
2016-09-14  2:38                 ` Rob Landley
2016-10-05 18:00                 ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-10-05 18:00                   ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-10-05 18:08                   ` Linus Torvalds
2016-10-05 18:08                     ` Linus Torvalds
2016-10-05 19:46                     ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-10-05 19:46                       ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-11-08 22:47                       ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-11-08 22:47                         ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-11-09  9:13                         ` Daniel Wagner
2016-11-09  9:13                           ` Daniel Wagner
2016-11-09 11:21                           ` Andy Lutomirski [this message]
2016-11-09 11:21                             ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-11-09 23:53                             ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-11-09 23:53                               ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-11-29 21:54                             ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-11-29 21:54                               ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-11-09 23:40                         ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-11-09 23:40                           ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-11-15  9:28                         ` Johannes Berg
2016-11-15  9:28                           ` Johannes Berg
2016-11-15  9:28                           ` Johannes Berg
2016-11-29 21:10                           ` Tom Gundersen
2016-11-29 21:10                             ` Tom Gundersen
2016-11-29 21:37                             ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-11-29 21:37                               ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-11-30  8:18                               ` Johannes Berg
2016-11-30  8:18                                 ` Johannes Berg
2016-06-16 22:54 ` [PATCH v2 3/5] firmware: update usermode helper docs and add SmPL report Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-06-16 22:54 ` [PATCH v2 4/5] firmware: add usermode helper DECLARE_FW_LOADER_USER() annotation Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-06-16 22:54 ` [PATCH v2 5/5] firmware: fix fw cache to avoid usermode helper on suspend Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-07-07  0:56 ` [PATCH v2 0/5] firmware: add SmPL grammar to avoid issues Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-07-13 21:47   ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-07-28  0:41     ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-08-03 14:50       ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-08-03 15:04         ` Greg KH
2016-08-03 17:06           ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-08-03 19:32             ` Greg KH
2016-08-03 19:46               ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-07-13 23:52   ` Fengguang Wu
2016-07-14  2:15     ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-07-14  2:23       ` Fengguang Wu
2016-07-14  3:08         ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-07-14  3:35           ` Fengguang Wu
2016-08-24  0:45 ` [PATCH v3 " mcgrof
2016-08-24  0:45   ` [PATCH v3 1/5] MAINTAINERS: extend firmware_class maintainer list mcgrof
2016-08-24  0:45   ` [PATCH v3 2/5] firmware: annotate thou shalt not request fw on init or probe mcgrof
2016-08-24  0:45     ` [Cocci] " mcgrof at kernel.org
2016-08-24  0:45     ` mcgrof
2016-08-24  8:17     ` Gabriel Paubert
2016-08-24  8:17       ` [Cocci] " Gabriel Paubert
2016-08-24  8:17       ` Gabriel Paubert
2016-09-02 18:26       ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-02 18:26         ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-08-24  0:45   ` [PATCH v3 3/5] firmware: update usermode helper docs and add SmPL report mcgrof
2016-08-24  0:45   ` [PATCH v3 4/5] firmware: add usermode helper DECLARE_FW_LOADER_USER() annotation mcgrof
2016-08-24  0:45   ` [PATCH v3 5/5] firmware: fix fw cache to avoid usermode helper on suspend mcgrof
2016-08-31  7:03     ` Daniel Wagner
2016-09-02 18:13       ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-07  0:42   ` [PATCH v4 0/5] firmware: add SmPL grammar to avoid issues Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-07  0:42     ` [PATCH v4 1/5] MAINTAINERS: extend firmware_class maintainer list Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-07  6:43       ` Greg KH
2016-09-08 14:58         ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-08 15:25         ` Ming Lei
2016-09-07  0:42     ` [PATCH v4 2/5] firmware: annotate thou shalt not request fw on init or probe Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-07  0:42       ` Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-07  0:42     ` [PATCH v4 3/5] firmware: update usermode helper docs and add SmPL report Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-07  0:42     ` [PATCH v4 4/5] firmware: add usermode helper DECLARE_FW_LOADER_USER() annotation Luis R. Rodriguez
2016-09-07  0:42     ` [PATCH v4 5/5] firmware: fix fw cache to avoid usermode helper on suspend Luis R. Rodriguez

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