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From: "Sakkinen, Jarkko" <jarkko.sakkinen@intel.com>
To: "Williams, Dan J" <dan.j.williams@intel.com>,
	"Schofield, Alison" <alison.schofield@intel.com>,
	"luto@kernel.org" <luto@kernel.org>,
	"willy@infradead.org" <willy@infradead.org>
Cc: "kirill.shutemov@linux.intel.com"
	<kirill.shutemov@linux.intel.com>,
	"jmorris@namei.org" <jmorris@namei.org>,
	"peterz@infradead.org" <peterz@infradead.org>,
	"Huang, Kai" <kai.huang@intel.com>,
	"keyrings@vger.kernel.org" <keyrings@vger.kernel.org>,
	"tglx@linutronix.de" <tglx@linutronix.de>,
	"linux-mm@kvack.org" <linux-mm@kvack.org>,
	"dhowells@redhat.com" <dhowells@redhat.com>,
	"linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org" 
	<linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>,
	"x86@kernel.org" <x86@kernel.org>,
	"hpa@zytor.com" <hpa@zytor.com>,
	"mingo@redhat.com" <mingo@redhat.com>,
	"bp@alien8.de" <bp@alien8.de>,
	"Hansen, Dave" <dave.hansen@intel.com>,
	"Nakajima, Jun" <jun.nakajima@intel.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC v2 00/13] Multi-Key Total Memory Encryption API (MKTME)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 22:19:20 +0000
Message-ID: <0a21eadd05b245f762f7d536d8fdf579c113a9bc.camel@intel.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CALCETrUqqQiHR_LJoKB2JE6hCZ-e7LiFprEhmo-qoegDZJ9uYQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 2018-12-04 at 11:19 -0800, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> I'm not Thomas, but I think it's the wrong direction.  As it stands,
> encrypt_mprotect() is an incomplete version of mprotect() (since it's
> missing the protection key support), and it's also functionally just
> MADV_DONTNEED.  In other words, the sole user-visible effect appears
> to be that the existing pages are blown away.  The fact that it
> changes the key in use doesn't seem terribly useful, since it's
> anonymous memory, and the most secure choice is to use CPU-managed
> keying, which appears to be the default anyway on TME systems.  It
> also has totally unclear semantics WRT swap, and, off the top of my
> head, it looks like it may have serious cache-coherency issues and
> like swapping the pages might corrupt them, both because there are no
> flushes and because the direct-map alias looks like it will use the
> default key and therefore appear to contain the wrong data.
> 
> I would propose a very different direction: don't try to support MKTME
> at all for anonymous memory, and instead figure out the important use
> cases and support them directly.  The use cases that I can think of
> off the top of my head are:
> 
> 1. pmem.  This should probably use a very different API.
> 
> 2. Some kind of VM hardening, where a VM's memory can be protected a
> little tiny bit from the main kernel.  But I don't see why this is any
> better than XPO (eXclusive Page-frame Ownership), which brings to
> mind:

What is the threat model anyway for AMD and Intel technologies?

For me it looks like that you can read, write and even replay 
encrypted pages both in SME and TME. 

/Jarkko

  parent reply index

Thread overview: 91+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-12-04  7:39 Alison Schofield
2018-12-04  7:39 ` [RFC v2 01/13] x86/mktme: Document the MKTME APIs Alison Schofield
2018-12-05 18:11   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-12-05 19:22     ` Alison Schofield
2018-12-05 23:35       ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-12-06  8:04   ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-04  7:39 ` [RFC v2 02/13] mm: Generalize the mprotect implementation to support extensions Alison Schofield
2018-12-06  8:08   ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-04  7:39 ` [RFC v2 03/13] syscall/x86: Wire up a new system call for memory encryption keys Alison Schofield
2018-12-04  7:39 ` [RFC v2 04/13] x86/mm: Add helper functions for MKTME " Alison Schofield
2018-12-04  9:14   ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-12-05  5:49     ` Alison Schofield
2018-12-04 15:35   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-12-05  5:52     ` Alison Schofield
2018-12-06  8:31   ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-04  7:39 ` [RFC v2 05/13] x86/mm: Set KeyIDs in encrypted VMAs Alison Schofield
2018-12-06  8:37   ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-04  7:39 ` [RFC v2 06/13] mm: Add the encrypt_mprotect() system call Alison Schofield
2018-12-06  8:38   ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-04  7:39 ` [RFC v2 07/13] x86/mm: Add helpers for reference counting encrypted VMAs Alison Schofield
2018-12-04  8:58   ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-12-05  5:28     ` Alison Schofield
2018-12-04  7:39 ` [RFC v2 08/13] mm: Use reference counting for " Alison Schofield
2018-12-04  7:39 ` [RFC v2 09/13] mm: Restrict memory encryption to anonymous VMA's Alison Schofield
2018-12-04  9:10   ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-12-05  5:30     ` Alison Schofield
2018-12-05  9:07       ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-12-04  7:39 ` [RFC v2 10/13] keys/mktme: Add the MKTME Key Service type for memory encryption Alison Schofield
2018-12-06  8:51   ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-06  8:54     ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-06 15:11     ` Dave Hansen
2018-12-06 22:56       ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-04  7:39 ` [RFC v2 11/13] keys/mktme: Program memory encryption keys on a system wide basis Alison Schofield
2018-12-04  9:21   ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-12-04  9:50     ` Kirill A. Shutemov
2018-12-05  5:44       ` Alison Schofield
2018-12-05  5:43     ` Alison Schofield
2018-12-05  9:10       ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-12-05 17:26         ` Alison Schofield
2018-12-04  7:39 ` [RFC v2 12/13] keys/mktme: Save MKTME data if kernel cmdline parameter allows Alison Schofield
2018-12-04  9:22   ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-12-07  2:14   ` Huang, Kai
2018-12-07  3:42     ` Alison Schofield
2018-12-07  6:39     ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2018-12-07  6:45       ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2018-12-07 11:47     ` Kirill A. Shutemov
2018-12-04  7:40 ` [RFC v2 13/13] keys/mktme: Support CPU Hotplug for MKTME keys Alison Schofield
2018-12-04  9:28   ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-12-05  5:32     ` Alison Schofield
2018-12-04  9:31   ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-12-05  5:36     ` Alison Schofield
2018-12-04  9:25 ` [RFC v2 00/13] Multi-Key Total Memory Encryption API (MKTME) Peter Zijlstra
2018-12-04  9:46   ` Kirill A. Shutemov
2018-12-05 20:32     ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-06 11:22       ` Kirill A. Shutemov
2018-12-06 14:59         ` Dave Hansen
2018-12-07 10:12           ` Huang, Kai
2018-12-06 21:23         ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-07 11:54           ` Kirill A. Shutemov
2018-12-04 19:19 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-12-04 20:00   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-12-04 20:32     ` Dave Hansen
2018-12-05 22:19   ` Sakkinen, Jarkko [this message]
2018-12-07  2:05     ` Huang, Kai
2018-12-07  6:48       ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2018-12-07 11:57     ` Kirill A. Shutemov
2018-12-07 21:59       ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-07 23:45         ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-07 23:48           ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-12-08  1:33           ` Huang, Kai
2018-12-08  3:53             ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-12 15:31           ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-12 16:29             ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-12-12 16:43               ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-12 23:27                 ` Huang, Kai
2018-12-13  5:49                   ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-13  5:52                     ` Sakkinen, Jarkko
2018-12-12 23:24               ` Huang, Kai
2018-12-07 23:35       ` Eric Rannaud
2018-12-05 23:49   ` Dave Hansen
2018-12-06  1:09     ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-12-06  1:25       ` Dan Williams
2018-12-06 15:39       ` Dave Hansen
2018-12-06 19:10         ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-12-06 19:31           ` Dave Hansen
2018-12-07  1:55       ` Huang, Kai
2018-12-07  4:23         ` Dave Hansen
2018-12-07 23:53         ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-12-08  1:11           ` Dave Hansen
2018-12-08  2:07           ` Huang, Kai
2018-12-05 20:30 ` Sakkinen, Jarkko

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