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From: "Stephan Müller" <smueller@chronox.de>
To: "Stephan Müller" <smueller@chronox.de>
Cc: Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>, Arnd Bergmann <arnd@arndb.de>,
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
	Linux Crypto Mailing List <linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Linux API <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>,
	"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@xmission.com>,
	"Alexander E. Patrakov" <patrakov@gmail.com>,
	"Ahmed S. Darwish" <darwish.07@gmail.com>,
	"Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu>, Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>,
	Matthew Garrett <mjg59@srcf.ucam.org>,
	Vito Caputo <vcaputo@pengaru.com>,
	Andreas Dilger <adilger.kernel@dilger.ca>,
	Jan Kara <jack@suse.cz>, Ray Strode <rstrode@redhat.com>,
	William Jon McCann <mccann@jhu.edu>,
	zhangjs <zachary@baishancloud.com>,
	Florian Weimer <fweimer@redhat.com>,
	Lennart Poettering <mzxreary@0pointer.de>,
	Nicolai Stange <nstange@suse.de>,
	"Peter, Matthias" <matthias.peter@bsi.bund.de>,
	Marcelo Henrique Cerri <marcelo.cerri@canonical.com>,
	Roman Drahtmueller <draht@schaltsekun.de>,
	Neil Horman <nhorman@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v24 00/12] /dev/random - a new approach with full SP800-90B compliance
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 00:26:34 +0100
Message-ID: <1708605.HZ0Ruzqnhc@positron.chronox.de> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <3282061.iY3hP4IT6m@positron.chronox.de>

Am Mittwoch, 13. November 2019, 00:03:47 CET schrieb Stephan Müller:

Hi Stephan,

> Am Dienstag, 12. November 2019, 16:33:59 CET schrieb Andy Lutomirski:
> 
> Hi Andy,
> 
> > On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 11:13 AM Stephan Müller <smueller@chronox.de> 
wrote:
> > > The following patch set provides a different approach to /dev/random
> > > which
> > > is called Linux Random Number Generator (LRNG) to collect entropy within
> > > the Linux kernel. The main improvements compared to the existing
> > > /dev/random is to provide sufficient entropy during boot time as well as
> > > in virtual environments and when using SSDs. A secondary design goal is
> > > to limit the impact of the entropy collection on massive parallel
> > > systems
> > > and also allow the use accelerated cryptographic primitives. Also, all
> > > steps of the entropic data processing are testable.
> > 
> > This is very nice!
> > 
> > > The LRNG patch set allows a user to select use of the existing
> > > /dev/random
> > > or the LRNG during compile time. As the LRNG provides API and ABI
> > > compatible interfaces to the existing /dev/random implementation, the
> > > user can freely chose the RNG implementation without affecting kernel or
> > > user space operations.
> > > 
> > > This patch set provides early boot-time entropy which implies that no
> > > additional flags to the getrandom(2) system call discussed recently on
> > > the LKML is considered to be necessary.
> > 
> > I'm uneasy about this.  I fully believe that, *on x86*, this works.
> > But on embedded systems with in-order CPUs, a single clock, and very
> > lightweight boot processes, most or all of boot might be too
> > deterministic for this to work.
> 
> I agree that in such cases, my LRNG getrandom(2) would also block until the
> LRNG thinks it collected 256 bits of entropy. However, I am under the
> impression that the LRNG collects that entropy faster that the existing
> /dev/ random implementation, even in this case.
> 
> Nicolai is copied on this thread. He promised to have the LRNG tested on
> such a minimalistic system that you describe. I hope he could contribute
> some numbers from that test helping us to understand how much of a problem
> we face.
> > I have a somewhat competing patch set here:
> > 
> > https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/luto/linux.git/log/?h=rand
> > om /kill-it
> > 
> > (Ignore the "horrible test hack" and the debugfs part.)
> > 
> > The basic summary is that I change /dev/random so that it becomes
> > functionally identical to getrandom(..., 0) -- in other words, it
> > blocks until the CRNG is initialized but is then identical to
> > /dev/urandom.
> 
> This would be equal to the LRNG code without compiling the TRNG.
> 
> > And I add getrandom(...., GRND_INSECURE) that is
> > functionally identical to the existing /dev/urandom: it always returns
> > *something* immediately, but it may or may not actually be
> > cryptographically random or even random at all depending on system
> > details.
> 
> Ok, if it is suggested that getrandom(2) should also have a mode to behave
> exactly like /dev/urandom by not waiting until it is fully seeded, I am
> happy to add that.
> 
> > In other words, my series simplifies the ABI that we support.  Right
> > now, we have three ways to ask for random numbers with different
> > semantics and we need to have to RNGs in the kernel at all time.  With
> > my changes, we have only two ways to ask for random numbers, and the
> > /dev/random pool is entirely gone.
> 
> Again, I do not want to stand in the way of changing the ABI if this is the
> agreed way. All I want to say is that the LRNG seemingly is initialized much
> faster than the existing /dev/random. If this is not fast enough for some
> embedded environments, I would not want to stand in the way to make their
> life easier.
> 
> > Would you be amenable to merging this into your series (i.e. either
> > merging the code or just the ideas)?
> 
> Absolutely. I would be happy to do that.
> 
> Allow me to pull your code (I am currently behind a slow line) and review it
> to see how best to integrate it.
> 
> > This would let you get rid of
> > things like the compile-time selection of the blocking TRNG, since the
> > blocking TRNG would be entirely gone.
> 
> Hm, I am not so sure we should do that.
> 
> Allow me to explain: I am also collaborating on the European side with the
> German BSI. They love /dev/random as it is a "NTG.1" RNG based on their AIS
> 31 standard.
> 
> In order to seed a deterministic RNG (like OpenSSL, GnuTLS, etc. which are
> all defined to be "DRG.3" or "DRG.2"), BSI mandates that the seed source is
> an NTG.1.
> 
> By getting rid of the TRNG entirely and having /dev/random entirely behaving
> like /dev/urandom or getrandom(2) without the GRND_RANDOM flag, the kernel
> would "only" provide a "DRG.3" type RNG. This type of RNG would be
> disallowed to seed another "DRG.3" or "DRG.2".
> 
> In plain English that means that for BSI's requirements, if the TRNG is gone
> there would be no native seed source on Linux any more that can satisfy the
> requirement. This is the ultimate reason why I made the TRNG compile-time
> selectable: to support embedded systems but also support use cases like the
> BSI case.
> 
> Please consider that I maintain a study over the last years for BSI trying
> to ensure that the NTG.1 property is always met [1] [2]. The sole purpose
> of that study is around this NTG.1.
> 
> > Or do you think that a kernel-provided blocking TRNG is a genuinely
> > useful thing to keep around?
> 
> Yes, as I hope I explained it appropriately above, there are standardization
> requirements that need the TRNG.
> 
> PS: When I was forwarding Linus' email on eliminating the blocking_pool to
> BSI, I saw unhappy faces. :-)
> 
> I would like to help both sides here.
> 
> [1]
> https://www.bsi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/EN/BSI/Publications/Studies/
> LinuxRNG/NTG1_Kerneltabelle_EN.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=3
> 
> [2]
> https://www.bsi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/EN/BSI/Publications/Studies/
> LinuxRNG/NTG1_Kerneltabelle_EN.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=3

Sorry, the copy did not work:

[2] https://bsi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/EN/BSI/Publications/Studies/
LinuxRNG/LinuxRNG_EN.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=16
> 
> Ciao
> Stephan


Ciao
Stephan



  reply index

Thread overview: 162+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-11-11 18:17 Stephan Müller
2019-11-11 18:18 ` [PATCH v24 01/12] Linux Random Number Generator Stephan Müller
2019-11-11 23:54   ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-11-12  2:25     ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-12 10:16       ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-11-12 22:30   ` kbuild test robot
2019-11-12 23:15     ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-13  0:14   ` kbuild test robot
2019-11-13  0:25     ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-24  4:51   ` Sandy Harris
2019-11-24  9:02     ` Stephan Mueller
2019-11-11 18:19 ` [PATCH v24 02/12] LRNG - allocate one SDRNG instance per NUMA node Stephan Müller
2019-11-11 18:20 ` [PATCH v24 03/12] LRNG - /proc interface Stephan Müller
2019-11-11 18:20 ` [PATCH v24 04/12] LRNG - add switchable DRNG support Stephan Müller
2019-11-11 18:21 ` [PATCH v24 05/12] crypto: DRBG - externalize DRBG functions for LRNG Stephan Müller
2019-11-11 18:21 ` [PATCH v24 06/12] LRNG - add SP800-90A DRBG extension Stephan Müller
2019-11-11 18:22 ` [PATCH v24 07/12] LRNG - add kernel crypto API PRNG extension Stephan Müller
2019-11-11 18:23 ` [PATCH v24 08/12] crypto: provide access to a static Jitter RNG state Stephan Müller
2019-11-11 18:23 ` [PATCH v24 09/12] LRNG - add Jitter RNG fast noise source Stephan Müller
2019-11-11 18:24 ` [PATCH v24 10/12] LRNG - add TRNG support Stephan Müller
2019-11-11 18:26 ` [PATCH v24 11/12] LRNG - add SP800-90B compliant health tests Stephan Müller
2019-11-12 19:58   ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-11-12 23:11     ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-13  0:36     ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-13  6:02       ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-11-14  1:46         ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-11 18:26 ` [PATCH v24 12/12] LRNG - add interface for gathering of raw entropy Stephan Müller
2019-11-12 20:55   ` kbuild test robot
2019-11-12 23:13     ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-12 13:23 ` [PATCH v24 00/12] /dev/random - a new approach with full SP800-90B compliance Florian Weimer
2019-11-12 22:43   ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-12 15:33 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-11-12 23:03   ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-12 23:26     ` Stephan Müller [this message]
2019-11-13  4:24   ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-13  4:48     ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-11-13 12:16       ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-16  9:32 ` [PATCH v25 00/12] /dev/random - a new approach with full SP800-90B Stephan Müller
2019-11-16  9:33   ` [PATCH v25 01/12] Linux Random Number Generator Stephan Müller
2019-11-16 11:25     ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-11-17 10:30       ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-16 18:13     ` Nicolai Stange
2019-11-17 11:01       ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-16  9:33   ` [PATCH v25 02/12] LRNG - allocate one SDRNG instance per NUMA node Stephan Müller
2019-11-16  9:34   ` [PATCH v25 03/12] LRNG - /proc interface Stephan Müller
2019-11-16 16:39     ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-11-17 12:16       ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-19 10:06         ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-11-19 10:55           ` Stephan Mueller
2019-11-19 17:40             ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-11-16 23:36     ` ebiederm
2019-11-17 11:37       ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-16  9:34   ` [PATCH v25 04/12] LRNG - add switchable DRNG support Stephan Müller
2019-11-16  9:35   ` [PATCH v25 05/12] crypto: DRBG - externalize DRBG functions for LRNG Stephan Müller
2019-11-16  9:35   ` [PATCH v25 06/12] LRNG - add SP800-90A DRBG extension Stephan Müller
2019-11-16  9:35   ` [PATCH v25 07/12] LRNG - add kernel crypto API PRNG extension Stephan Müller
2019-11-16  9:36   ` [PATCH v25 08/12] crypto: provide access to a static Jitter RNG state Stephan Müller
2019-11-16  9:36   ` [PATCH v25 09/12] LRNG - add Jitter RNG fast noise source Stephan Müller
2019-11-20 13:33     ` Neil Horman
2019-11-20 20:07       ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-21 14:19         ` Neil Horman
2019-11-21 14:33           ` Stephan Mueller
2019-11-16  9:37   ` [PATCH v25 10/12] LRNG - add TRNG support Stephan Müller
2019-11-16 16:09     ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-11-17 11:10       ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-19 10:07         ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-11-19 10:46           ` Stephan Mueller
2019-11-19 12:41           ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2019-11-20  8:58             ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-20  9:55               ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-11-20 13:29               ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2019-11-20 19:51                 ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-20 19:57                   ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2019-11-20 20:32                   ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2019-11-21 13:06                     ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-16  9:37   ` [PATCH v25 11/12] LRNG - add SP800-90B compliant health tests Stephan Müller
2019-11-16  9:38   ` [PATCH v25 12/12] LRNG - add interface for gathering of raw entropy Stephan Müller
2019-11-16 16:51     ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-11-17 22:55       ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-19 10:04         ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-11-19 17:17     ` Randy Dunlap
2019-11-20  9:01       ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-21 12:18     ` Nicolai Stange
2019-11-21 15:18       ` Stephan Müller
2019-11-23 20:08   ` [PATCH v26 00/12] /dev/random - a new approach with full SP800-90B Stephan Müller
2019-11-23 20:10     ` [PATCH v26 01/12] Linux Random Number Generator Stephan Müller
2019-11-24 22:44       ` kbuild test robot
2019-11-25  6:29         ` Stephan Mueller
2019-11-23 20:10     ` [PATCH v26 02/12] LRNG - allocate one SDRNG instance per NUMA node Stephan Müller
2019-11-23 20:11     ` [PATCH v26 03/12] LRNG - sysctls and /proc interface Stephan Müller
2019-11-23 20:11     ` [PATCH v26 04/12] LRNG - add switchable DRNG support Stephan Müller
2019-11-23 20:31     ` [PATCH v26 05/12] crypto: DRBG - externalize DRBG functions for LRNG Stephan Müller
2019-11-23 20:32     ` [PATCH v26 06/12] LRNG - add SP800-90A DRBG extension Stephan Müller
2019-11-23 20:32     ` [PATCH v26 07/12] LRNG - add kernel crypto API PRNG extension Stephan Müller
2019-11-23 20:33     ` [PATCH v26 08/12] crypto: provide access to a static Jitter RNG state Stephan Müller
2019-11-23 20:34     ` [PATCH v26 09/12] LRNG - add Jitter RNG fast noise source Stephan Müller
2019-11-23 20:34     ` [PATCH v26 10/12] LRNG - add TRNG support Stephan Müller
2019-11-23 20:34     ` [PATCH v26 11/12] LRNG - add SP800-90B compliant health tests Stephan Müller
2019-11-23 20:35     ` [PATCH v26 12/12] LRNG - add interface for gathering of raw entropy Stephan Müller
2020-01-09  8:29     ` [PATCH v27 00/12] /dev/random - a new approach with full SP800-90B Stephan Müller
2020-01-09  8:30       ` [PATCH v27 01/12] Linux Random Number Generator Stephan Müller
2020-01-16  6:09         ` kbuild test robot
2020-01-16  6:41           ` Stephan Mueller
2020-01-09  8:31       ` [PATCH v27 02/12] LRNG - allocate one DRNG instance per NUMA node Stephan Müller
2020-01-09  8:31       ` [PATCH v27 03/12] LRNG - sysctls and /proc interface Stephan Müller
2020-01-09  8:32       ` [PATCH v27 04/12] LRNG - add switchable DRNG support Stephan Müller
2020-01-11  7:09         ` kbuild test robot
2020-01-12 10:12           ` Stephan Müller
2020-01-09  8:32       ` [PATCH v27 05/12] crypto: DRBG - externalize DRBG functions for LRNG Stephan Müller
2020-01-09  8:32       ` [PATCH v27 06/12] LRNG - add SP800-90A DRBG extension Stephan Müller
2020-01-09  8:33       ` [PATCH v27 07/12] LRNG - add kernel crypto API PRNG extension Stephan Müller
2020-01-09  8:33       ` [PATCH v27 08/12] crypto: provide access to a static Jitter RNG state Stephan Müller
2020-01-09  8:34       ` [PATCH v27 09/12] LRNG - add Jitter RNG fast noise source Stephan Müller
2020-01-10  0:24         ` Randy Dunlap
2020-01-10  7:45           ` Stephan Mueller
2020-01-09  8:34       ` [PATCH v27 10/12] LRNG - add SP800-90B compliant health tests Stephan Müller
2020-01-10  0:20         ` Randy Dunlap
2020-01-10  8:27           ` Stephan Mueller
2020-01-09  8:35       ` [PATCH v27 11/12] LRNG - add interface for gathering of raw entropy Stephan Müller
2020-01-09  8:35       ` [PATCH v27 12/12] LRNG - add power-on and runtime self-tests Stephan Müller
2020-01-10  0:22         ` Randy Dunlap
2020-01-10  7:48           ` Stephan Mueller
2020-01-13 10:39         ` Dan Carpenter
2020-01-13 10:46           ` Stephan Mueller
2020-01-15 10:31       ` [PATCH v28 00/12] /dev/random - a new approach with full SP800-90B Stephan Müller
2020-01-15 10:31         ` [PATCH v28 01/12] Linux Random Number Generator Stephan Müller
2020-01-16  0:11           ` Randy Dunlap
2020-01-16  7:22             ` Stephan Mueller
2020-01-15 10:32         ` [PATCH v28 02/12] LRNG - allocate one DRNG instance per NUMA node Stephan Müller
2020-01-15 10:32         ` [PATCH v28 03/12] LRNG - sysctls and /proc interface Stephan Müller
2020-01-15 10:32         ` [PATCH v28 04/12] LRNG - add switchable DRNG support Stephan Müller
2020-01-15 10:33         ` [PATCH v28 05/12] crypto: DRBG - externalize DRBG functions for LRNG Stephan Müller
2020-01-15 10:33         ` [PATCH v28 06/12] LRNG - add SP800-90A DRBG extension Stephan Müller
2020-01-16  0:14           ` Randy Dunlap
2020-01-16  6:55             ` Stephan Mueller
2020-01-15 10:34         ` [PATCH v28 07/12] LRNG - add kernel crypto API PRNG extension Stephan Müller
2020-01-16  0:15           ` Randy Dunlap
2020-01-16  6:54             ` Stephan Mueller
2020-01-15 10:34         ` [PATCH v28 08/12] crypto: provide access to a static Jitter RNG state Stephan Müller
2020-01-15 10:34         ` [PATCH v28 09/12] LRNG - add Jitter RNG fast noise source Stephan Müller
2020-01-16  0:17           ` Randy Dunlap
2020-01-16  6:51             ` Stephan Mueller
2020-01-15 10:35         ` [PATCH v28 10/12] LRNG - add SP800-90B compliant health tests Stephan Müller
2020-01-15 10:35         ` [PATCH v28 11/12] LRNG - add interface for gathering of raw entropy Stephan Müller
2020-01-16  0:18           ` Randy Dunlap
2020-01-16  6:43             ` Stephan Mueller
2020-01-16  6:48               ` Randy Dunlap
2020-01-16  6:52                 ` Stephan Mueller
2020-01-15 10:36         ` [PATCH v28 12/12] LRNG - add power-on and runtime self-tests Stephan Müller
2020-01-19 21:12         ` [PATCH v29 00/12] /dev/random - a new approach with full SP800-90B Stephan Müller
2020-01-19 21:13           ` [PATCH v29 01/12] Linux Random Number Generator Stephan Müller
2020-01-19 21:13           ` [PATCH v29 02/12] LRNG - allocate one DRNG instance per NUMA node Stephan Müller
2020-01-19 21:14           ` [PATCH v29 03/12] LRNG - sysctls and /proc interface Stephan Müller
2020-01-19 21:14           ` [PATCH v29 04/12] LRNG - add switchable DRNG support Stephan Müller
2020-01-19 21:15           ` [PATCH v29 05/12] crypto: DRBG - externalize DRBG functions for LRNG Stephan Müller
2020-01-19 21:16           ` [PATCH v29 06/12] LRNG - add SP800-90A DRBG extension Stephan Müller
2020-01-19 21:16           ` [PATCH v29 07/12] LRNG - add kernel crypto API PRNG extension Stephan Müller
2020-01-19 21:17           ` [PATCH v29 08/12] crypto: provide access to a static Jitter RNG state Stephan Müller
2020-01-19 21:18           ` [PATCH v29 09/12] LRNG - add Jitter RNG fast noise source Stephan Müller
2020-01-19 21:18           ` [PATCH v29 10/12] LRNG - add SP800-90B compliant health tests Stephan Müller
2020-01-19 21:19           ` [PATCH v29 11/12] LRNG - add interface for gathering of raw entropy Stephan Müller
2020-01-19 21:20           ` [PATCH v29 12/12] LRNG - add power-on and runtime self-tests Stephan Müller

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