linux-kernel.vger.kernel.org archive mirror
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Larry McVoy <lm@bitmover.com>
To: Dax Kelson <dax@gurulabs.com>
Cc: Larry McVoy <lm@bitmover.com>,
	Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
	Matthias Schniedermeyer <ms@citd.de>,
	Ross Vandegrift <ross@willow.seitz.com>,
	Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!]
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:08:56 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20030429050856.GC23581@work.bitmover.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0304282144200.22872-100000@mooru.gurulabs.com>

> Your complaint/observation about cloning/re-implementation is recognized.  
> 
> The counter claims are:
> 
> 1. Unless patents are involved, it is perfectly LEGAL.
> 2. Virtually nothing is original to begin with.
> 3. The practice is hardly unique to Open Source developers.

Me:  Action A is leading to reaction B which you don't want.
You: Action A is perfectly legal, etc., etc.
Me:  It's not about whether it is legal or not, it's about reaction B.
You: Action A is perfectly legal, etc., etc.
Me:  Reaction B is what you don't want, it's behaviour A which is the cause.
You: Action A is perfectly legal, etc., etc.
Me:  You keep missing the point about the reaction B.
You: Action A is perfectly legal, etc., etc.
Me:  Err, umm, how many times do I have to tell you it is the reaction that
     is what you want to avoid?
You: Action A is perfectly legal, etc., etc.
Me:  Sigh.


I think the point that you are missing is that if the corporations are 
threatened by your actions they will take steps to remove that threat.
The various IP protection changes which we are seeing are those steps.
People keep telling me how I don't understand the legality of the threats
and I keep telling them that the world evolves, we're in a world which 
is moving more and more towards a place where much of the economy is
based on IP, not physical goods.  As that happens the laws will be
evolved to protect the owners of the IP, technology will evolve to 
protect that IP, everything becomes about the IP.

To the extent that the corporations view your actions as a threat,
they will react.  Consider at Microsoft Word, if you don't talk Word
you don't do business.  So if Microsoft gets really nervous about
their office monopoly what is to prevent them from encrypting the data?
You can build all the Word compatible programs you want and it won't do a
bit of good if you can't read the data.  It's the data, not the program,
which is valuable.  He who owns the data wins.  Office is more than proof.

It's my belief that the more you chase the leaders, the more the leaders
will lock up what gives them that lead.  Various people on this list have
said that the lockup will fail, it will be too inconvenient.  I don't buy
it for a second.  If only the Word binaries can read Word documents, that
doesn't cause the users any headaches, they can still get their job done.

So how do you win?  Create a *better* answer.  Chasing is a waste of your
time, all that happens is that the people being chased will do a little
work to make it impossible to get at the data produced by their tools.
You win by being a leader, not following a leader.

It's not that hard to lead, you just need to decide to do it.  Look at Word.
What's wrong with it?  Well, it's a binary file format, you can't version
control it in a meaningful way, there is no way to merge diverged docs,
so development on any doc is single threaded.  Suppose you made an
ascii file format (me being the geek I am, I'd use troff as the back
end but that's just me), add version control (RCS would be good enough),
made a 3 way merge tool, TADA, you have just parallelized documentation
(never mind that we had this in the 70's and Microsoft screwed it up).
There is a huge, huge market for this sort of thing.

Instead of actually making real progress, people work on reimplementation
of the same thing.  Doomed, the leader changes a few things, you're
incompatible, you lose because noone can open their files in your tool.

The problem, in my not so respected opinion, is that the open source
community is good at chasing and hasn't figured out how to lead.
Linux is a hell of a success story but it's still Unix.  It's a nice
Unix, I much prefer it over any other but I could just as easily live
on MacOS X if I had to, the processors are fast enough for what I do.
But Linux isn't really the issue, the OS has never been the issue, it's
always been the applications.  And there, again, we see reimplementation
of proprietary apps and infrastructure.  When Microsoft is following
Mono rather than the other way around, then the tide will have changed.
As long as you chase them, you're bound to lose.

We may now return to our regularly scheduled thread of how I don't get
that reimplementation is perfectly legal and I'll go do some real work...
-- 
---
Larry McVoy              lm at bitmover.com          http://www.bitmover.com/lm

  reply	other threads:[~2003-04-29  4:56 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 269+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2003-04-24  3:59 Flame Linus to a crisp! Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24  4:40 ` Joel Jaeggli
2003-04-24  4:43 ` Greg KH
2003-04-24  4:57   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24  5:02     ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24  5:39       ` viro
2003-04-24  5:56         ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-24  8:46           ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-24  9:46         ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24 10:54       ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2003-04-25  0:07         ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24  4:54 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-04-24  5:16   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 13:08     ` Shawn
2003-04-24 20:12       ` Kenneth Johansson
2003-04-24 17:32     ` Andreas Boman
2003-04-24 17:41       ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-24 19:39         ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-26 17:05       ` Riley Williams
2003-04-24  5:02 ` Mark J Roberts
2003-04-24  5:13   ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24  5:15 ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-24  5:43   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24  6:15     ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-24  7:44       ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24  8:03         ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-25  1:16           ` Jan Harkes
2003-04-25  1:35             ` Stan Bubrouski
2003-04-24  8:16         ` John Bradford
2003-04-24  8:31           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24  8:59             ` John Bradford
2003-04-24  8:50           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 14:45           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 15:00             ` Jeff Garzik
2003-04-24 19:03             ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-24 19:32               ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 19:22                 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 20:19                   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 20:35                   ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 19:39                 ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-24 21:02                   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 18:58         ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-24 21:08           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 21:37             ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 21:30               ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 21:38                 ` John Bradford
2003-04-25  3:20                   ` Shawn
2003-04-25  5:47                     ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-25  7:02                       ` John Bradford
2003-04-25  8:05                         ` Simple x86 Simulator (was: Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!) Steven Augart
2003-04-25 15:38                           ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-25 16:10                             ` John Bradford
2003-04-25 11:44                               ` Antonio Vargas
2003-04-25  8:52                         ` Flame Linus to a crisp! Helge Hafting
2003-04-25 14:03                   ` Mike Dresser
2003-04-24 21:42                 ` Russell King
2003-04-25  6:08               ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-25 11:46                 ` Antonio Vargas
2003-04-24 10:57     ` Giuliano Pochini
2003-04-24 22:51     ` Adrian Bunk
2003-04-24  7:55 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24  8:37 ` Andreas Jellinghaus
2003-04-24  8:59   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 12:52     ` Andreas Jellinghaus
2003-04-24 15:37     ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 18:35       ` Alan Cox
2003-04-24 20:46         ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 20:50           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 21:03             ` Chris Adams
2003-04-24 22:29         ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-24 22:41           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 22:54             ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-25  0:26               ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 22:41           ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 14:21           ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 16:13             ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-04-27 16:59             ` Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 17:04               ` Ben Collins
2003-04-27 17:34               ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-27 18:41                 ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-27 17:35               ` Måns Rullgård
2003-04-27 17:49                 ` Mirar
2003-04-27 23:15                   ` H. Peter Anvin
2003-04-27 17:59                 ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-27 21:28                 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-28  1:48                 ` rmoser
2003-04-28  9:05                   ` Måns Rullgård
2003-04-28 10:44                   ` The X-Window System John Bradford
2003-04-28 14:37                     ` Herman Oosthuysen
2003-04-28 16:28                       ` uaca
2003-05-06  3:55                         ` Miles Bader
2003-04-27 18:07               ` Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] Matthias Schniedermeyer
2003-04-27 18:35               ` Chris Adams
2003-04-27 18:50                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 19:11                   ` Davide Libenzi
2003-04-27 20:13                   ` Frank van Maarseveen
2003-04-27 20:34                   ` walt
2003-04-27 21:26                   ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:07                   ` Ross Vandegrift
2003-04-27 22:32                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 22:05                       ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:28                         ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28  0:06                           ` Ross Vandegrift
2003-04-28 11:03                           ` Alan Cox
2003-04-29 18:06                           ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-28  9:06                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2003-04-28 14:55                       ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-28 20:04                       ` Matthias Schniedermeyer
2003-04-28 20:18                         ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 20:22                           ` Chris Adams
2003-04-28 21:24                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 21:40                               ` Roman Zippel
2003-04-28 22:13                               ` Alan Cox
2003-04-28 22:16                           ` Alan Cox
2003-04-29  0:09                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-29  4:07                               ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-29  5:08                                 ` Larry McVoy [this message]
2003-04-29 16:40                                 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 21:45                                   ` Helge Hafting
2003-04-30  9:58                                   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-30 15:06                                     ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29  5:59                               ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-04-29 16:41                                 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 14:35                               ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:34                   ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 22:51                   ` Matthew Kirkwood
2003-04-27 23:53                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28  0:00                       ` rmoser
     [not found]                         ` <20030428001001.GP23068@work.bitmover.com>
2003-04-28  0:19                           ` rmoser
2003-04-28  0:37                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28  0:40                               ` rmoser
2003-04-28 11:38                   ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-29 14:21                   ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 14:27                     ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-29 19:56                       ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 20:35                         ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-30  8:39                     ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-27 18:47               ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-27 18:56               ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-27 19:20               ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-04-27 21:30               ` Jon Portnoy
2003-04-27 21:32               ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:36                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 21:56                   ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:08                     ` Matthew Kirkwood
2003-04-27 22:16                       ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:35                   ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 22:07               ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-28  0:36               ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-28  9:57               ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-06 15:58                 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-07 14:44                   ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-07 14:28                     ` Alan Cox
2003-05-07 21:40                     ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-07 22:16                       ` Alan Cox
2003-05-08  0:33                       ` Kurt Wall
2003-04-28 11:26               ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-05-06 15:59                 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-04-28 22:50               ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 14:46               ` Jeffrey Souza
2003-04-29 15:16                 ` venom
2003-04-30  9:35                 ` Jamie Lokier
     [not found]             ` <20030427171007$6d24@gated-at.bofh.it>
2003-04-27 20:08               ` Why DRM exists Florian Weimer
2003-04-24 19:23       ` Flame Linus to a crisp! Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 19:50         ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-24  8:57 ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-04-24  9:19   ` Russell King
2003-04-24 11:38     ` Shachar Shemesh
2003-04-24 17:46       ` Shachar Shemesh
2003-04-24 14:59   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 12:39 ` Mark Mielke
2003-04-24 15:53 ` Elladan
2003-04-24 18:31 ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-24 23:15   ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-25 11:28     ` Eric W. Biederman
2003-04-27  1:31       ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-27  1:59         ` David Wagner
2003-04-25 14:37     ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-25 15:17       ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-25 17:37       ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-26 21:59         ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-26 13:00     ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-04-26 18:22       ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-26 18:41         ` viro
2003-04-26 18:48           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-28 14:20           ` John Stoffel
2003-04-26 19:23         ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-28 10:35         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-04-28 12:12           ` Jörn Engel
2003-04-28 14:01           ` Zack Gilburd
2003-04-28 14:30             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-04-26 18:21   ` Rik van Riel
2003-04-26 23:34     ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-27  3:59     ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-24 20:16 ` Nils Holland
2003-04-25  4:46 ` My take on Trusted Computing and DRM Joseph Pingenot
     [not found] <Pine.LNX.4.44.0304232012400.19176-100000@home.transmeta.co m>
2003-04-27 10:52 ` Houston, I think we have a problem Mike Galbraith
2003-04-27 14:41   ` Martin J. Bligh
2003-04-27 17:25     ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-27 17:29       ` Martin J. Bligh
2003-04-27 17:41         ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-27 17:54           ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-28  5:17     ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-28  6:15   ` Jan Harkes
2003-04-27 17:59 Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] James Bottomley
2003-04-29 14:01 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 16:39   ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 17:38     ` James Bottomley
2003-04-30  9:43       ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-29 23:40   ` Robert White
2003-04-30  1:34     ` Rik van Riel
2003-04-30 10:03       ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-30 20:37       ` Robert White
2003-04-30 20:59         ` David Schwartz
2003-05-01  9:03           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-05-01 19:49             ` David Schwartz
2003-05-01 20:27               ` Robert White
2003-05-01 23:08                 ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02  0:54                   ` Robert White
2003-05-02  3:10                     ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02  3:34                       ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02 13:43                       ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 20:48       ` David Schwartz
2003-04-30 13:11 Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 13:59 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 14:49   ` Jesse Pollard
2003-04-30 16:01   ` Giuliano Pochini
2003-04-30 16:53   ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-30 17:21     ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 17:45       ` Jim Penny
2003-04-30 19:09       ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-30 19:58       ` Nicolas Pitre
2003-05-01  2:20         ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-01  3:39           ` Nicolas Pitre
2003-05-09 11:04           ` Pavel Machek
2003-05-09 23:17             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 20:00       ` Dax Kelson
2003-05-01 11:44         ` David S. Miller
2003-05-02 19:00           ` H. Peter Anvin
2003-05-02 23:10             ` David S. Miller
2003-05-03 19:25               ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-06 11:25               ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-06 12:13                 ` David S. Miller
2003-05-09 10:59           ` Pavel Machek
2003-05-01 12:09       ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-01 18:01         ` Gerhard Mack
2003-04-30 14:52 Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 15:20 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 15:55   ` Jeff Randall
2003-05-01 12:43     ` Jesse Pollard
2003-04-30 18:19   ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 19:20     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 19:41       ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 19:53         ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 19:55         ` viro
2003-04-30 20:09           ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 18:58   ` Edgar Toernig
2003-04-30 22:43   ` Paul Mackerras
2003-05-01  1:03     ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-01 12:27       ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-01 13:11       ` Jesse Pollard
2003-05-01 17:40       ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-30 15:53 Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 16:21 Chuck Ebbert
2003-04-30 17:24 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 18:39 Chuck Ebbert
2003-05-01  3:16 Tom Lord
2003-05-01 19:06 Chuck Ebbert
2003-05-01 23:40 Chuck Ebbert

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=20030429050856.GC23581@work.bitmover.com \
    --to=lm@bitmover.com \
    --cc=alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk \
    --cc=cmadams@hiwaay.net \
    --cc=dax@gurulabs.com \
    --cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=ms@citd.de \
    --cc=ross@willow.seitz.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).