From: NeilBrown <neil@brown.name>
To: Al Viro <viro@ZenIV.linux.org.uk>
Cc: Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org>,
Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org,
Mishi Choudhary <mishi@linux.com>
Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:45:14 +1100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87in1s75ph.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20181023060059.GW32577@ZenIV.linux.org.uk>
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On Tue, Oct 23 2018, Al Viro wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:28:03PM +1100, NeilBrown wrote:
>
>> > If that's a clarification, I'm sorry to say that I understand you even less now.
>> > What are you proposing? Duopoly? How do you deal with disagreements? Fork?
>> > Revert wars?
>>
>> We already have team-maintainership arrangements - doing the same thing
>> at the top level should not be that hard to imagine.
>>
>> It really about "saying" no. I suspect all members of a team would come
>> to much the same decision about any given patch, but they might "say" it
>> differently. One might say "anyone who wrote this should be
>> lobotomised", and the other might say "I see what you are trying to do,
>> but the approach won't work - go look at how we handle XXXX, they have a
>> similar problem". Neither will accept the patch, and they will probably
>> both accept it after certain changes. But when one of them is having a
>> bad day, I would like people to have the explicit opportunity to ignore
>> them and talk to the other. Yes, they'll still get "no" twice, but they'll
>> also get something approaching sane review least once.
>
> You still have not answered the question I've asked - what to do in case of
> real disagreements, seeing that "pass it to Linus for final decision" obviously
> doesn't work here. And while we are at it, what to do in case when "they"
> _agree_ that patch is unsalvagable? I'm quite sure that you can think of
> examples of such...
Sorry, things easily get lost in such a wide ranging conversation.
Handling of real disagreements is not my problem, unless I am a member
of the maintainership team. We have maintainership teams which appear
to work, so they provide an existence-proof that something can be
achieved.
Were I to have an opportunity to be part of a maintainership team, I
would probably base any internal agreement necessary on two principles.
1/ People on the team are reasonably competent, and aren't going to
commit anything that all controversial without being quite confident.
I would choose to trust.
2/ We commit bad patches often, and when we realize, we fix them. You
and I have both been on both sides of that. We (the community)
even commit quite large mistakes (devfs, control-groups) and the world
doesn't end. Accepting imperfection is a key part of Linus' pragmatic
approach, and a key part of the success of Linux.
If they agree that the patch is unsalvagable, then they say so -
politely and with reasons. It is a right-of-review, not a
right-of-success.
>
> BTW, out of curiosity - when has anyone suggested lobotomies[1]? I'd like to see
> details - got to be interesting...
Sorry, it was a deliberately ficticious example.
Thanks for showing an interest, it is more than a lot of people are
doing.
NeilBrown
>
> [1] on kernel development lists, that is - I can think of examples in e.g.
> NANAE circa '98 or so regarding the SGI employees responsible for sendmail
> setup they used to ship in IRIX, but that was more of a possible explanation
> of the reasons rather than suggested remedy...
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2018-10-23 20:45 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 104+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2018-10-20 13:49 [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document Greg Kroah-Hartman
2018-10-20 13:49 ` [PATCH 1/7] Code of conduct: Fix wording around maintainers enforcing the code of conduct Greg Kroah-Hartman
2018-10-20 13:50 ` [PATCH 2/7] Code of Conduct Interpretation: Add document explaining how the Code of Conduct is to be interpreted Greg Kroah-Hartman
2018-10-20 13:50 ` [PATCH 3/7] Code of Conduct Interpretation: Properly reference the TAB correctly Greg Kroah-Hartman
2018-10-20 13:50 ` [PATCH 4/7] Code of Conduct: Provide links between the two documents Greg Kroah-Hartman
2018-10-20 13:50 ` [PATCH 5/7] Code of Conduct Interpretation: Put in the proper URL for the committee Greg Kroah-Hartman
2018-10-20 19:01 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2018-10-21 7:18 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Greg KH
2018-10-20 13:51 ` [PATCH 6/7] Code of Conduct: Change the contact email address Greg Kroah-Hartman
2018-10-20 18:28 ` Alan Cox
2018-10-20 18:45 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Trond Myklebust
2018-10-20 19:14 ` jonsmirl
2018-10-21 8:27 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2018-10-21 9:23 ` Greg KH
2018-10-20 19:24 ` Tim.Bird
2018-10-20 20:07 ` Trond Myklebust
2018-10-21 0:13 ` Alan Cox
2018-10-21 6:19 ` Thomas Gleixner
2018-10-20 20:13 ` James Bottomley
2018-10-20 13:51 ` [PATCH 7/7] MAINTAINERS: Add an entry for the code of conduct Greg Kroah-Hartman
2018-10-21 21:20 ` Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document NeilBrown
2018-10-21 22:26 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Josh Triplett
2018-10-21 23:37 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2018-10-23 1:44 ` NeilBrown
2018-10-22 20:26 ` NeilBrown
2018-10-22 22:46 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2018-10-23 1:31 ` NeilBrown
2018-10-23 6:26 ` Dan Carpenter
2018-10-23 6:40 ` Al Viro
2018-10-23 6:46 ` Dan Carpenter
2018-10-23 3:31 ` Al Viro
2018-10-23 4:25 ` NeilBrown
2018-10-23 4:52 ` Al Viro
2018-10-23 5:28 ` NeilBrown
2018-10-23 6:00 ` Al Viro
2018-10-23 20:45 ` NeilBrown [this message]
2018-10-23 8:11 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2018-10-23 14:22 ` Rainer Fiebig
2018-10-23 15:43 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2018-10-23 17:51 ` Rainer Fiebig
2018-10-23 21:14 ` NeilBrown
2018-10-24 12:16 ` Josh Triplett
2018-10-25 21:14 ` NeilBrown
2018-10-27 1:10 ` Josh Triplett
2018-10-28 21:48 ` NeilBrown
2018-11-01 16:45 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-11-01 21:11 ` Josh Triplett
2018-11-02 13:13 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-11-01 21:50 ` NeilBrown
2018-11-02 13:33 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-11-03 8:36 ` NeilBrown
2018-11-03 17:37 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-11-03 21:06 ` NeilBrown
2018-11-03 22:23 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-11-02 13:52 ` James Bottomley
2018-11-03 9:19 ` Eric S. Raymond
2018-11-04 10:35 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2018-10-21 22:33 ` Joe Perches
2018-10-21 22:37 ` Randy Dunlap
2018-10-22 9:09 ` Rainer Fiebig
2018-10-22 11:02 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " James Bottomley
2018-10-24 8:49 ` Laura Abbott
2018-10-25 7:56 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant visionsofalice
2018-10-25 8:19 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2018-10-25 19:39 ` Eric S. Raymond
2018-10-25 20:47 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2018-10-25 21:41 ` Eric S. Raymond
2018-10-25 22:12 ` NeilBrown
2018-10-25 22:38 ` Eric S. Raymond
2018-10-25 22:52 ` NeilBrown
2018-11-04 10:47 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Geert Uytterhoeven
2018-10-25 23:06 ` Al Viro
2018-10-26 2:28 ` Eric S. Raymond
2018-10-26 5:49 ` Al Viro
2018-10-27 6:52 ` visionsofalice
2018-10-27 7:32 ` Al Viro
2018-10-27 16:18 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Tim.Bird
2018-10-27 22:09 ` Jiri Kosina
[not found] ` <CAK2MWOtNUTjWy5pTcGco5DNurqNCc=9CfDJ-Ko-K+6HDC55ikg@mail.gmail.com>
2018-10-27 23:07 ` Eric S. Raymond
2018-10-27 23:40 ` Al Viro
2018-10-28 21:13 ` NeilBrown
2018-10-25 23:32 ` Iván Chavero
2018-10-26 13:15 ` Eben Moglen
2018-10-26 15:50 ` Eric S. Raymond
2018-10-26 15:53 ` Eben Moglen
2018-10-26 17:32 ` visionsofalice
2018-10-26 18:31 ` Eben Moglen
2018-10-27 7:12 ` visionsofalice
2018-12-18 18:53 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant. - Analysis published? visionsofalice
2018-10-26 10:34 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant visionsofalice
2018-10-29 22:31 ` Bradley M. Kuhn
2018-12-18 19:17 ` visionsofalice
2018-10-27 5:04 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant. - Additional restrictive terms visionsofalice
2018-12-18 20:55 ` The CoC regime is a License violation " visionsofalice
2018-12-19 1:17 ` visionsofalice
2018-12-23 16:05 ` visionsofalice
2018-10-25 22:02 ` Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document NeilBrown
2018-10-25 8:06 ` Pavel Machek
2018-10-25 11:20 ` Rainer Fiebig
2018-10-25 22:18 ` NeilBrown
2018-10-26 8:33 ` Rainer Fiebig
2018-10-26 22:40 ` NeilBrown
2018-10-27 11:49 ` Rainer Fiebig
2018-10-21 23:36 ` Eric S. Raymond
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