Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Billy Rose]

if i were a big monopolistic company that has recently (openly) began 
to worry about the threat of linux taking some of my market share, i 
would create an explosive topic on the kernel mailing list and begin 
dividing up the developers using political agenda such as this. little 
by little, the cracks in the foundation would start giving way to 
larger debates. finally, simple ideology would create a divide that 
causes the developers to choose "sides" and then fragmentation would 
occur. the ultimate outcome: the unix syndrome. perhaps this is not 
such a case, but it may as well be from what i have read. sometimes 
not giving your opinion is worth more than winning a debate. think 
about it.

billy
=====
"there's some milk in the fridge that's about to go bad...
and there it goes..." -bobby

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[NEURONET]

From: "Billy Rose" <billyrose@billyrose.net>
> if i were a big monopolistic company that has recently (openly) began 
> to worry about the threat of linux taking some of my market share, i 
> would create an explosive topic on the kernel mailing list and begin 
> dividing up the developers using political agenda such as this. little 
> by little, the cracks in the foundation would start giving way to 
> larger debates. finally, simple ideology would create a divide that 
> causes the developers to choose "sides" and then fragmentation would 
> occur. the ultimate outcome: the unix syndrome. perhaps this is not 
> such a case, but it may as well be from what i have read. sometimes 
> not giving your opinion is worth more than winning a debate. think 
> about it.

Interesting. OTOH, you ain't need nothing but plain 
evolution to see it happen: people thinking publicly 
on a mailing list like this one is just enough (and 
no "help" from a wicked monopolistic company is to 
be assumed ;) ).

I believe it's a property of a topic itself, whether 
it's something for a long discussion, or something 
superfluous. A topic we kill each other for is 
interesting on its own right: it is both irrelevant 
and is only a matter of coincidence when and who 
happens to be the firestarter. 

If an important issue that has the potential to divide 
us or has some other profound effect on our world here, 
one can be sure it WILL just pop up, and we WILL discuss 
it sooner or later, simply because such a topic needs 
to be resolved somehow...

It's just the nature of these intellectual things: 
different minds -- like winds -- shape the surface of 
our common landscape here, over long or short, calm 
or stormy, one-time or recurring debates.

Sab

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Mielke]

On Tue, Jan 14, 2003 at 12:47:37AM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
>     Before this whole naming fiasco started, I was a strong supporter of GNU
>     software.  I am not any longer because of *your* actions, Richard.  I am
>     still and plan to remain a strong supporter of free software.. but I
>     don't feel affiliated with the FSF any more.  And that's a pity.
> It's not a pity, it's an injustice.  People have led you to disregard
> our work and say the job was done by others; you condemn us when we
> say we did it, and now you say you will shun us for it.

The job *was* done by many others. You don't respect this.

mark

P.S. Every time you strip out the names of the people that you quote, I
     have found your practice disrespectful. I don't *know* who wrote
     the quote you make above. Therefore, I do not know whose reputation
     has improved in my eyes, if only, because they share my opinion
     regarding you. Please retain the names of the people you quote.

-- 
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.  .  _  ._  . .   .__    .  . ._. .__ .   . . .__  | Neighbourhood Coder
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                       and in the darkness bind them...

                           http://mark.mielke.cc/

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Ranjeet Shetye]

hi Richard,

At the point in time when you started the GNU project, do you mind
telling us how much of the GNU code was based on BSD and how much was
not ?

I am asking for a reasonably accurate percentage e.g. 20% BSD, 80%
non-BSD, OR 85% BSD, 15% non-BSD. Something to that effect.
Comments/Code/Headers whatever originated from the BSD team gets
attributed to them, and the modifications you guys wrote are credited to
the GNU project.

Also, someone posted that the original GNU code was based on the BSD
code and therefore the BSD licence, and one fine day the BSD licence was
replaced with the GNU licence. Is that correct or incorrect ?

thanks,
Ranjeet Shetye.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    Before this whole naming fiasco started, I was a strong supporter of GNU
    software.  I am not any longer because of *your* actions, Richard.  I am
    still and plan to remain a strong supporter of free software.. but I don't
    feel affiliated with the FSF any more.  And that's a pity.

It's not a pity, it's an injustice.  People have led you to disregard
our work and say the job was done by others; you condemn us when we
say we did it, and now you say you will shun us for it.

It would be dishonorable to cower in fear of unjust criticism, so I
will keep on doing what I think is right, and hope that you will
reconsider eventually.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    You developed tools and packages that you intended to put into a system
    that you have called the Hurd.

Not quite.  The system in question is "GNU".  The Hurd is just part of
the kernel of GNU; the other GNU packages are not part of the Hurd.

    I'm going to agree with Larry here.  If you're going to insist that people
    call it GNU/Linux, then you had better start referring to your operating
    system as Linux/Hurd if you want to retain any credibility.

I've already explained why this is bad logic.  Will my explanation
have "credibility"?  That's asking whether other people will grasp the
point.

I think it is not useful to digress into speculation about what other
people will think about an issue.  It is better to stick to the issues
themselves.

    People get angry because you're being disrespectful and presumptuous to
    try and tell people who know exactly what the order of events are that
    you and your foundation were actively involved in developing Linux.  That
    was not the case and you know it.

If you mean the whole system that is sometimes called Linux, we began
developing it in 1984.

Perhaps you've defined the "development of Linux" to include only that
part of the development which began with integrating the kernel,
Linux, with the rest of the system.  We became involved in that
starting in 1993 or 1994.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Jeff Randall]

On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 06:54:59AM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
>     I also note that you didn't start your campaign to rename it lignux or
>     GNU/Linux until it was well established and very commonly known as Linux.
> 
> I think we started in 1994 (although mostly privately until 1996).

I personally started using Linux in March of 1992 -- Version 0.94 IIRC.
Linux 2.0 was out by 1996 was it not?  I stand by my 'well established'
comment above.


>     To a lot of people, myself included, this feels like an attempt to steal
>     credit and draw attention to yourself and the FSF by trying to hijack the
>     name of a project that you didn't contribute to, but instead used tools you
>     provided such as gcc and glibc.
> 
> If you believe this is a "project that we didn't contribute to", it's
> natural you would believe the rest.  That's why calling the system
> "Linux" is so unfair.  We started developing this system, and we
> developed more of it than anyone else; but thinking of it as "Linux"
> leads people to focus on the part that we didn't do, and devalue our
> part.  (See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#tools.)
> 
> That's why we can never go along with calling the system "Linux".  No matter
> how many people do that, we will keep on pointing out why that is wrong.

You developed tools and packages that you intended to put into a system
that you have called the Hurd.  While you were developing all of the various
pieces for that system (Hurd) other people were using those packages on
various other systems -- I used gcc under SunOS and Dynix long before I'd
head of Linux.. And I used more GNU packages than vendor packages on most
of the HP-UX boxes I administrated after college.. You have said in the past
that that doesn't make those GNU/HP-UX Boxes... 

That the various packages and tools developed to support your project
(Hurd) were used by another project developing a seperate operating system
does not give you the right to name that seperate operating system.  Those
people who put together all the various pieces and made it work call it Linux.

I'm going to agree with Larry here.  If you're going to insist that people
call it GNU/Linux, then you had better start referring to your operating
system as Linux/Hurd if you want to retain any credibility.


>     It may be publicity (and there may be no such thing as bad press), but
>     it's not favorable publicity, and it rubs a lot of people who have been
>     involved with Linux a long time the wrong way.
> 
> There are people who get angry at us for correcting the mistaken
> picture, but in the long run it would be self-defeating (as well as
> dishonorable) to bow to such pressure.  See
> http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#alienate.

People get angry because you're being disrespectful and presumptuous to
try and tell people who know exactly what the order of events are that
you and your foundation were actively involved in developing Linux.  That
was not the case and you know it.

Before this whole naming fiasco started, I was a strong supporter of GNU
software.  I am not any longer because of *your* actions, Richard.  I am
still and plan to remain a strong supporter of free software.. but I don't
feel affiliated with the FSF any more.  And that's a pity.



(I'm done with this thread now.)

-- 
randall@uph.com    "It's a big world and you can hit it with any airplane."
                                           -- Flying, August 2000, Page 90.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    I also note that you didn't start your campaign to rename it lignux or
    GNU/Linux until it was well established and very commonly known as Linux.

I think we started in 1994 (although mostly privately until 1996).

    To a lot of people, myself included, this feels like an attempt to steal
    credit and draw attention to yourself and the FSF by trying to hijack the
    name of a project that you didn't contribute to, but instead used tools you
    provided such as gcc and glibc.

If you believe this is a "project that we didn't contribute to", it's
natural you would believe the rest.  That's why calling the system
"Linux" is so unfair.  We started developing this system, and we
developed more of it than anyone else; but thinking of it as "Linux"
leads people to focus on the part that we didn't do, and devalue our
part.  (See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#tools.)

That's why we can never go along with calling the system "Linux".  No matter
how many people do that, we will keep on pointing out why that is wrong.

    It may be publicity (and there may be no such thing as bad press), but
    it's not favorable publicity, and it rubs a lot of people who have been
    involved with Linux a long time the wrong way.

There are people who get angry at us for correcting the mistaken
picture, but in the long run it would be self-defeating (as well as
dishonorable) to bow to such pressure.  See
http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#alienate.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    > If you use some other term instead of "operating system" for the
    > larger collection of software, it might remove one cause of confusion.

    Programming environment. 

There is a lot more to a system than the kernel and programming
environment.  Consider GNOME or KDE, Mutt, Mozilla, OpenOffice, and
GNU Chess.  They are not part of the programming environment.

			     I say "Gnu tools" .

Some GNU packages are tools, but most of them are not.  If you want to
talk specifically about the GNU packages that are tools, could you please
take care with the wording so that readers won't assume it means
that all GNU packages are tools?

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    > There is no such thing as an open source community.  

    Poof!  And millions of people disappear at the bidding of the
    One True God, Richard Stallman.

These people exist and are part of our community.  (I said that
before.)  They have the right to their views, and the right to form a
movement to promote it.  They have the right to call it the open
source movement.  All that is simply the exercise of political
freedom.

What they do not have a right to do is rename our community after
their own movement as if they had built it.  That is Orwellian
rewriting of history.  People can honorably disagree with our views,
but they can't honorably deny our achievements.

    Please remember that Linux is a trademark of Linus Torvalds and your
    inclusion of "Linux" in "GNU/Linux" is covered by trademark law.  Have
    you cleared that use with Linus?

Linus announced years ago that people can use the term "Linux" any way
they wish as long as it does not close off the name space.  Legally,
therefore, this is allowed.  But there is still the issue of what is
right to do.

It would't be wrong to call the system just "GNU", since it's more GNU
than anything else, but it seems ungentlemanly to cite only GNU and
ask people to stop giving Linus a share of the credit.  I'd rather
call it "GNU/Linux" and cite his contribution also.

However, if he asks us to stop citing Linux in this way, we will heed
his wishes.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Jeff Randall]

On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 06:13:07PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> There is no such thing as an open source community.  The people who
> founded the open source movement in 1998, and the people who support
> it now, are part of the free software community.  (We in the free
> software movement built the community in the 80s with our determined
> effort.)
> 
> These people are legitimate members of our community, and they have a
> right to form a movement to promote their views; but their views
> didn't build the community, so it should not be named after their
> movement.

They are only part of YOUR community if they want to be part.  Otherwise,
they are members of a seperate communuity that may or may not have similar
goals as yours.


> Why do so many people misinterpret the events this way?  The practice
> of calling the system "Linux" leads to and encourages the
> misinterpretation.  It leads people to suppose that the most important
> part of the development of the system must have occurred when Linus
> Torvalds started to work on it.

I also note that you didn't start your campaign to rename it lignux or
GNU/Linux until it was well established and very commonly known as Linux.

To a lot of people, myself included, this feels like an attempt to steal
credit and draw attention to yourself and the FSF by trying to hijack the
name of a project that you didn't contribute to, but instead used tools you
provided such as gcc and glibc.

It may be publicity (and there may be no such thing as bad press), but
it's not favorable publicity, and it rubs a lot of people who have been
involved with Linux a long time the wrong way.


-- 
randall@uph.com    "It's a big world and you can hit it with any airplane."
                                           -- Flying, August 2000, Page 90.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>There is no such thing as an open source community.  The people who
>founded the open source movement in 1998, and the people who support
>it now, are part of the free software community.  (We in the free

Open Source != Free Software. Else Microsoft would be part of the
"free software community", because they open up their sources, too.

There is "free software (free as in free beer)" which is not open
sourced.

As you build most of your assumptions on this, this is where you whole
logic breaks down.

	Regards
		Henning


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen       -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH     hps@intermeta.de

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof     Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   

RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Vlad@Vlad.geekizoid.com]

Double Plus Good Richard, Double Plus Good.

"Withers, however, was already an unperson. He did not exist: he had never
existed." -- George Orwell's 1984

-----Original Message-----
From: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Richard Stallman
Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 5:13 PM
To: billh@gnuppy.monkey.org
Cc: mark@mark.mielke.cc; lm@bitmover.com; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org;
paul@clubi.ie; riel@conectiva.com.br; billh@gnuppy.monkey.org
Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source
drivers?


There is no such thing as an open source community.  The people who
founded the open source movement in 1998, and the people who support
it now, are part of the free software community.  (We in the free
software movement built the community in the 80s with our determined
effort.)

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[yodaiken]

On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 06:13:29PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
>     Just for the record, "operating system", and "kernel" are used as 
>     synonyms in the research literature.
> 
> The term "operating system" has been used in both ways for a long
> time.  When people speak about the "Linux operating system," most of
> them mean the larger GNU/Linux system--they are not using "operating
> system" to mean "kernel".

My point was just to note that people who look for information about emacs
or gcc in the proceedings of the OSDI or SIGOPS Symposium are going to 
be disappointed. 

> If you use some other term instead of "operating system" for the
> larger collection of software, it might remove one cause of confusion.

Programming environment. I say "Gnu tools" .

> That won't eliminate the question of what this collection's name
> should properly be, or correct the misinformation about how it was
> developed and by whom.


The bad news is that many of our customers now ask us if we support
"8.0" or "7.3".  For them "Red Hat" is the name of the system. Bob Young's
ketchup vision has absorbed the world. 

I'm sympathetic, but if there is anyone out there who has contributed 
free software and gets full credit and no hate mail, I'd be very surprised.

Envy is emulation adapted to the meanest capacity.
	Ambrose Bierce




-- 
---------------------------------------------------------
Victor Yodaiken 
Finite State Machine Labs: The RTLinux Company.
www.fsmlabs.com  www.rtlinux.com
1+ 505 838 9109

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[David D. Hagood]

Richard Stallman wrote:

> If you use some other term instead of "operating system" for the
> larger collection of software, it might remove one cause of confusion.

Might I suggest the term "operation environment" - thus things like the 
kernel, and "got-to-have-it-or-we-no-go" bits like libc and the dynamic 
loader system are "the operating system", and 
"we-can-live-without-it-but-who-wants-to" bits like the browser, editor, 
HTTP/FTP/etc. libraries are part of the "operating environment".

> That won't eliminate the question of what this collection's name
> should properly be, or correct the misinformation about how it was
> developed and by whom.
> 

OT: Thank you, Richard, for what you've done for the industry. My first 
exposure to Gnu was on the Atari ST, where an individual sent me GCC on 
about 20 floppy disks. Been hooked ever since - I've often thought the 
GPL would make a great "Wonder of the World" in FreeCiv...

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Larry McVoy]

On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 06:13:07PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> There is no such thing as an open source community.  

Poof!  And millions of people disappear at the bidding of the
One True God, Richard Stallman.

Not.

> The GNU system, with Linux added, had a great deal of success, but

Please remember that Linux is a trademark of Linus Torvalds and your
inclusion of "Linux" in "GNU/Linux" is covered by trademark law.  Have
you cleared that use with Linus?

> attributing that success entirely to Linux is a misinterpretation of
> the events.
> 
> Why do so many people misinterpret the events this way?  

Maybe because their belief is a lot more valid than your belief?

Oh, since I have your attention, when are you going to issue a 
press release officially renaming Hurd to Linux/Hurd?  
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	 lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitmover.com/lm 

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    Just for the record, "operating system", and "kernel" are used as 
    synonyms in the research literature.

The term "operating system" has been used in both ways for a long
time.  When people speak about the "Linux operating system," most of
them mean the larger GNU/Linux system--they are not using "operating
system" to mean "kernel".

If you use some other term instead of "operating system" for the
larger collection of software, it might remove one cause of confusion.
That won't eliminate the question of what this collection's name
should properly be, or correct the misinformation about how it was
developed and by whom.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

There is no such thing as an open source community.  The people who
founded the open source movement in 1998, and the people who support
it now, are part of the free software community.  (We in the free
software movement built the community in the 80s with our determined
effort.)

These people are legitimate members of our community, and they have a
right to form a movement to promote their views; but their views
didn't build the community, so it should not be named after their
movement.

    It's not ment to be a disrespect to you and what you've
    done certainly, but it's definitely smashed the scale and scope
    of free software projects.

The GNU system, with Linux added, had a great deal of success, but
attributing that success entirely to Linux is a misinterpretation of
the events.

Why do so many people misinterpret the events this way?  The practice
of calling the system "Linux" leads to and encourages the
misinterpretation.  It leads people to suppose that the most important
part of the development of the system must have occurred when Linus
Torvalds started to work on it.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Ranjeet Shetye]

Richard,

The last time I tried installing the GNU Operating System without the
Linux Kernel, it wouldn't boot. Dont know why. I had my /bin/ls and my
/bin/make installed but they just wouldn't boot the computer.

I finally installed a Windows 98 kernel to help the GNU operating system
(i.e. ls and make) and now I can happily state that my computer is
running a GNU Operating System with a Windows 98 kernel.

Doesn't that sound silly ???????


Know why ? cos (Operating System == kernel), in this case, its Linux,
and the GNU stuff refers to the utilities only.

Mind you, they are VERY IMPORTANT utilities, but utilities nonetheless.
To call them an operating system is ridiculous, as I think I proved in
the earlier part of my mail.

Ranjeet Shetye.
Senior Software Engineer.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Hounschell]

Jesse Pollard wrote:

> > > >
> > > > Aren't nvidias' chipsets really owned by SGI. It think there is some
> > > > deal nvidia has with SGI that prohibits nvidia from opening up their
> > > > driver and chip set info. It's looking like SGI might be gone soon.
> > > > Maybe if they disappear, nvidia can do what they want???
> > >
> > > Think they sold it to Microsoft....
> >
> > I think what they sold to MS was some part of "OPENGL" software not
> > anything hardware
> > related.
> 
> That part I'm sure of. But part of what was sold is the interface to the
> "OPENGL" software, and that is part of what is implemented by the
> nvidia chips. So, by a tenuous extension, the chips interface may be
> owned by M$.

That's scary.....

Mark

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Hounschell]

Jesse Pollard wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday 08 January 2003 06:28 am, Mark Hounschell wrote:
> > Helge Hafting wrote:
> > > Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:08:00 +0100, Helge Hafting
> <helgehaf@aitel.hist.no>  said:
> > > > > loss.  Giving away driver code (or at least programming specs)
> > > > > wouldn't be a loss to nvidia though - because users would still
> > > > > need to buy those cards.
> > > >
> > > > It would be a major loss to nvidia *AND* its customers if it were
> > > > bankrupted in a lawsuit because it open-sourced code or specs that
> > > > contained intellectual property that belonged to somebody else.
> > >
> > > Perhaps their driver contains some IP.  But I seriously doubt the
> > > programming specs for their chips contains such secrets.  It is
> > > not as if we need the entire chip layout - it is basically
> > > things like:
> > >
> > > "To achieve effect X, write command code 0x3477 into register 5
> > > and the new coordinates into registers 75-78.  Then wait 2.03ms before
> > > attempting to access the chip again..."
> > >
> > > Something is very wrong if they _can't_ release that sort of
> > > information.
> > > Several other manufacturers have no problem with this.
> >
> > Aren't nvidias' chipsets really owned by SGI. It think there is some deal
> > nvidia has with SGI that prohibits nvidia from opening up their driver and
> > chip set info. It's looking like SGI might be gone soon. Maybe if they
> > disappear, nvidia can do what they want???
> 
> Think they sold it to Microsoft....

I think what they sold to MS was some part of "OPENGL" software not anything
hardware
related.

Mark

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Jesse Pollard]

On Wednesday 08 January 2003 09:46 am, Mark Hounschell wrote:
> Jesse Pollard wrote:
> > On Wednesday 08 January 2003 06:28 am, Mark Hounschell wrote:
> > > Helge Hafting wrote:
> > > > Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:08:00 +0100, Helge Hafting
> >
> > <helgehaf@aitel.hist.no>  said:
> > > > > > loss.  Giving away driver code (or at least programming specs)
> > > > > > wouldn't be a loss to nvidia though - because users would still
> > > > > > need to buy those cards.
> > > > >
> > > > > It would be a major loss to nvidia *AND* its customers if it were
> > > > > bankrupted in a lawsuit because it open-sourced code or specs that
> > > > > contained intellectual property that belonged to somebody else.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps their driver contains some IP.  But I seriously doubt the
> > > > programming specs for their chips contains such secrets.  It is
> > > > not as if we need the entire chip layout - it is basically
> > > > things like:
> > > >
> > > > "To achieve effect X, write command code 0x3477 into register 5
> > > > and the new coordinates into registers 75-78.  Then wait 2.03ms
> > > > before attempting to access the chip again..."
> > > >
> > > > Something is very wrong if they _can't_ release that sort of
> > > > information.
> > > > Several other manufacturers have no problem with this.
> > >
> > > Aren't nvidias' chipsets really owned by SGI. It think there is some
> > > deal nvidia has with SGI that prohibits nvidia from opening up their
> > > driver and chip set info. It's looking like SGI might be gone soon.
> > > Maybe if they disappear, nvidia can do what they want???
> >
> > Think they sold it to Microsoft....
>
> I think what they sold to MS was some part of "OPENGL" software not
> anything hardware
> related.

That part I'm sure of. But part of what was sold is the interface to the 
"OPENGL" software, and that is part of what is implemented by the
nvidia chips. So, by a tenuous extension, the chips interface may be
owned by M$.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesse I Pollard, II
Email: pollard@navo.hpc.mil

Any opinions expressed are solely my own.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Jesse Pollard]

On Wednesday 08 January 2003 06:28 am, Mark Hounschell wrote:
> Helge Hafting wrote:
> > Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
> > > On Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:08:00 +0100, Helge Hafting 
<helgehaf@aitel.hist.no>  said:
> > > > loss.  Giving away driver code (or at least programming specs)
> > > > wouldn't be a loss to nvidia though - because users would still
> > > > need to buy those cards.
> > >
> > > It would be a major loss to nvidia *AND* its customers if it were
> > > bankrupted in a lawsuit because it open-sourced code or specs that
> > > contained intellectual property that belonged to somebody else.
> >
> > Perhaps their driver contains some IP.  But I seriously doubt the
> > programming specs for their chips contains such secrets.  It is
> > not as if we need the entire chip layout - it is basically
> > things like:
> >
> > "To achieve effect X, write command code 0x3477 into register 5
> > and the new coordinates into registers 75-78.  Then wait 2.03ms before
> > attempting to access the chip again..."
> >
> > Something is very wrong if they _can't_ release that sort of
> > information.
> > Several other manufacturers have no problem with this.
>
> Aren't nvidias' chipsets really owned by SGI. It think there is some deal
> nvidia has with SGI that prohibits nvidia from opening up their driver and
> chip set info. It's looking like SGI might be gone soon. Maybe if they
> disappear, nvidia can do what they want???

Think they sold it to Microsoft....

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesse I Pollard, II
Email: pollard@navo.hpc.mil

Any opinions expressed are solely my own.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[yodaiken]

On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 03:00:20AM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> The definition of GNU is simple: GNU is an operating system.  In 1983
> I announced the plan to develop a Unix-like operating system that
> would be entirely free software, and I gave the system the name GNU.

Just for the record, "operating system", and "kernel" are used as 
synonyms in the research literature. If you open a textbook on 
"operating systems" or look at the contents of the proceedings
of  Operating Systems conferences, you will not find many discussions
of text editors, compilers, or other programming tools.  Generally, the operating
system is considered to stop at the system call interface.

One of the revolutionary features of UNIX was that it was relatively
agnostic about "tools". 
Oddly enough, the two most active campaigners for expanding the 
definition of operating system are the FSF and Microsoft.

I think that Richard's usage of "operating system" is based on 
Digital Equipment Corp. terminology from the prehistorical times
of releases on tape.


> We're looking for a good term to use for "programs released under GNU
> licenses", because we want to educate the community that this is not
> the same thing as free software (there are other free software

(1) GNU Programming System. 
or
(2) GPL Programming Layer 

You should be able to get US military funding because these are  recursive
TLAs. The GPL expansion to "GPL Programming Layer" so that  GPL becomes
a context sensitive recursive TLA should be enough to get an entire Homeland
Security program dedicated to the project. 

Please feel free to use this idea without restriction.  In fact, this is released
under "I don't want to have anything to do with it" license.

victor


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------
Victor Yodaiken 
Finite State Machine Labs: The RTLinux Company.
www.fsmlabs.com  www.rtlinux.com
1+ 505 838 9109

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Hounschell]

Helge Hafting wrote:
> 
> Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:08:00 +0100, Helge Hafting <helgehaf@aitel.hist.no>  said:
> > > loss.  Giving away driver code (or at least programming specs)
> > > wouldn't be a loss to nvidia though - because users would still
> > > need to buy those cards.
> >
> > It would be a major loss to nvidia *AND* its customers if it were bankrupted in
> > a lawsuit because it open-sourced code or specs that contained intellectual
> > property that belonged to somebody else.
> 
> Perhaps their driver contains some IP.  But I seriously doubt the
> programming specs for their chips contains such secrets.  It is
> not as if we need the entire chip layout - it is basically
> things like:
> 
> "To achieve effect X, write command code 0x3477 into register 5
> and the new coordinates into registers 75-78.  Then wait 2.03ms before
> attempting to access the chip again..."
> 
> Something is very wrong if they _can't_ release that sort of
> information.
> Several other manufacturers have no problem with this.

Aren't nvidias' chipsets really owned by SGI. It think there is some deal nvidia
has with SGI that prohibits nvidia from opening up their driver and chip set
info. It's looking like SGI might be gone soon. Maybe if they disappear, nvidia
can do what they want???


Mark

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Bill Huey]

On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 03:00:22AM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
>     activistic political structure to bind a project like this, but
>     the successful execution of Linux as a large scale political,
>     social and economic product (credit to folks like Linus, Alan Cox,
>     Stephen Tweedie, etc...)  
> 
> When you say "Linux" here, do you mean the kernel, or the whole
> GNU/Linux system?  With all due respect, I think you may not have

Linux itself, yes, it's definitely a special project in the context of
GNU and deserve to have it's identity preserved even outside of the
main core of GNU/GPL. It's special case all around.

> answered this question for yourself, because the people that you name
> are people who worked on the kernel, but the success that you talk
> about is the success of the whole system.  (No kernel alone could have
> had this effect.)

Those folks were on the forefront of this and have special historical
status as a result of this.

> Like any community, it contains people with different views.  Nowadays
> many of the people in our community support the open source movement.
> The open source advocates are legitimate members of the community, and
> some have contributed to it.  They have a right to form a movement to
> promote their views, but that movement was started only in 1998, long
> after the community existed.  Their movement did not build the
> community, and it should not be named after them.
 
Yes, but they were on the forefront of this and have special status and
should be held seperate from GNU/GPL itself.

> Speaking of which, your ideas seem to have a lot in common with the
> free software movement.  I wonder if you thought that the open source
> movement was the only one and that we all support it.  (Many
> inaccurate articles give that impression.)  If you read about the free
> software movement, you might decide we are closer to your views.

The difference that respect about this project is that, although it's
has GPL roots, it has been a refactoring foundation for the entire
open source community. The rules were rewritten after the success of
this project. It's not ment to be a disrespect to you and what you've
done certainly, but it's definitely smashed the scale and scope
of free software projects.

Like when Metallica hit the Metal scene in 1984, it was a bit sterile
prior to that. :)

> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/, and in particular
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html for an
> explanation of the difference between the two movements.  We and they
> have similar practices, which is why we and they can work together
> some of the time, but what we say about it is very different from
> what they say.

I'll read it again. :)

bill

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Helge Hafting]

Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:08:00 +0100, Helge Hafting <helgehaf@aitel.hist.no>  said:
> > loss.  Giving away driver code (or at least programming specs)
> > wouldn't be a loss to nvidia though - because users would still
> > need to buy those cards.
> 
> It would be a major loss to nvidia *AND* its customers if it were bankrupted in
> a lawsuit because it open-sourced code or specs that contained intellectual
> property that belonged to somebody else.

Perhaps their driver contains some IP.  But I seriously doubt the
programming specs for their chips contains such secrets.  It is
not as if we need the entire chip layout - it is basically
things like:

"To achieve effect X, write command code 0x3477 into register 5
and the new coordinates into registers 75-78.  Then wait 2.03ms before
attempting to access the chip again..."

Something is very wrong if they _can't_ release that sort of
information.
Several other manufacturers have no problem with this.

> In the real world, ideology needs to be tempered with realism.
> 
Sure.  But in this case, it is more about common sense than ideology.


Helge Hafting

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    activistic political structure to bind a project like this, but
    the successful execution of Linux as a large scale political,
    social and economic product (credit to folks like Linus, Alan Cox,
    Stephen Tweedie, etc...)  

When you say "Linux" here, do you mean the kernel, or the whole
GNU/Linux system?  With all due respect, I think you may not have
answered this question for yourself, because the people that you name
are people who worked on the kernel, but the success that you talk
about is the success of the whole system.  (No kernel alone could have
had this effect.)

The practice of referring to the whole system by the same name as the
kernel alone leads to constant confusion between the two.  You will
often see statements that "Linux is a Unix-like operating system, like
Solaris or FreeBSD, which is released under the GNU GPL."  That is
false regardless of what meaning you assign to "Linux".  The only way
to avoid confusion is to stop calling the whole system by the name
used for the kernel.

			      really paved the way for the entire open
    source community as we understand it.

Our community is the free software community; it was built by the
idealism of the free software movement.

Like any community, it contains people with different views.  Nowadays
many of the people in our community support the open source movement.
The open source advocates are legitimate members of the community, and
some have contributed to it.  They have a right to form a movement to
promote their views, but that movement was started only in 1998, long
after the community existed.  Their movement did not build the
community, and it should not be named after them.

Speaking of which, your ideas seem to have a lot in common with the
free software movement.  I wonder if you thought that the open source
movement was the only one and that we all support it.  (Many
inaccurate articles give that impression.)  If you read about the free
software movement, you might decide we are closer to your views.

See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/, and in particular
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html for an
explanation of the difference between the two movements.  We and they
have similar practices, which is why we and they can work together
some of the time, but what we say about it is very different from
what they say.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    It's not Hurd that I'm criticizing as much as the over emphasis on any single
    ideological entity and the amorphous definition of GNU in multipule
    contexts, social, technological, etc...

The definition of GNU is simple: GNU is an operating system.  In 1983
I announced the plan to develop a Unix-like operating system that
would be entirely free software, and I gave the system the name GNU.

>From this concept come other derived concepts.  For instance,
developing the system is a project.  That's the GNU Project.  Carrying
out such a project involves writing lots of programs.  Programs that
have been developed for GNU or contributed by their developers
specifically to GNU are called GNU programs, GNU packages, or
collectively GNU software.  (Those three terms are equivalent.)  The
manuals developed for GNU or contributed specifically to GNU are GNU
manuals.

We wrote some licenses to use on GNU programs and manuals.
These are the GNU licenses.

GNU is also associated with a movement and a philosophy, but we don't
call them "GNU".  We call them the Free Software Movement, and its
philosophy.  Nonetheless, the main place people come across them is in
connection with GNU, and the success of the GNU Project is the best
way to refute the common presupposition that idealism like ours is
impractical.  So we want people to know of the system as GNU.

We're looking for a good term to use for "programs released under GNU
licenses", because we want to educate the community that this is not
the same thing as free software (there are other free software
licenses) and not the same thing as GNU software (releasing a program
under a GNU license does not imply that you did it as part of the GNU
Project, as witness for example Linux).  If you have a suggestion, and
a few of your friends like it, please email it to me.

Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Valdis.Kletnieks]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 795 bytes --]

On Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:08:00 +0100, Helge Hafting <helgehaf@aitel.hist.no>  said:
> loss.  Giving away driver code (or at least programming specs)
> wouldn't be a loss to nvidia though - because users would still
> need to buy those cards.

It would be a major loss to nvidia *AND* its customers if it were bankrupted in
a lawsuit because it open-sourced code or specs that contained intellectual
property that belonged to somebody else.  Of course, if that happened, you'd
still have the "freedom" to buy the other vendor's cards - maybe(*)

In the real world, ideology needs to be tempered with realism.

(*) there's a ripple effect here - if the otherwise-best laptop is only
available with an nvidia card, you now have the "freedom" to choose a otherwise
less-suitable model.  And so on....

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Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>I don't know why the BSD systems did not become as popular; perhaps
>it's because they became available some years later.

We have a finnish poster boy and a more cuddly mascot.

	SCNR
		Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen       -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH     hps@intermeta.de

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof     Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Bill Huey]

On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 08:40:27AM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> But the fact that you focus on the Hurd, when the Hurd is not the
> issue, suggests a possible misunderstanding.  Are you identifying the
> success of GNU with the success of the Hurd?  The Hurd is just one part
> of GNU, just one of many programs we developed for GNU.  The success
> of GNU doesn't require the Hurd.

It's not Hurd that I'm criticizing as much as the over emphasis on any single
ideological entity and the amorphous definition of GNU in multipule
contexts, social, technological, etc...

> Some GNU packages have failed completely, and been abandoned.  You
> have probably never heard of them.  But the GNU system overall is a
> great success despite that.
> 
>     I mean, FreeBSD is a free system, yet why didn't it create an entire movement
>     of free software like Linux did ?
> 
> Linux alone didn't do this.  It was the combination of GNU and Linux
> that did this.

But largely, IMO, because of the uprising of the Internet as a new kind of social
communication and collaboration along with a GPL style license to protect property from
being outright exploited. It's the combination of all those things that makes it unique
and very dangerous.

> I don't know why the BSD systems did not become as popular; perhaps
> it's because they became available some years later.

I think the failures of the BSDs in this area are related to the lack of social
consciousness needed to create a kind of technology that has some protective intellectual
statement behind it to solidify it as a legitimate movement. You don't need much of that
activistic political structure to bind a project like this, but the successful execution
of Linux as a large scale political, social and economic product (credit to folks like Linus,
Alan Cox, Stephen Tweedie, etc...) really paved the way for the entire open source community
as we understand it. I'm saying it's not just simply the intellectual existence of GPL/GNU
that resulted from in this success, but a kind of convergence of multipule social phenomenons
that brought us GNU as we know it. The definitions we have of "it" are dry and meaningless.

Linux, as a social force, removes a certain cultural pollution and inaccessibility about technology,
(as these perceptions are created in late 80s from either large corporations or DARPA) that
deconstructs this mythos and brings into question something that's more directly controllable
and believeable by folks like us. This is straight out of Nietzsche's culture criticism about
both religion, power and how nihilistic cultural values, the unbelieveability of cultural
beliefs, must be reborn and become believeable again.

That's why I do open source stuff. I'm just about annoying an idealist as they get while
still being a legitimate nerd since it really speaks to me, how I feel about technology
and how it effects my career/life.  

It's a bit heavy, but that's all. :)

bill

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    > See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html for the history of GNU.

    I hate to say it to you, but that URL reads like the typical BSD arguments
    that I get, where embittered engineers whine about how a kernel is key to
    and entire software development process. Both HURD and the BSDs are simply
    irrelevant to the entire GNU/GPL phenomenon as we know it

It is true that the Hurd is mostly irrelevant to the success of
GNU/Linux and the free software community today.  Nearly everyone who
uses GNU uses it with Linux, very few with the Hurd.  I use it with
Linux.

But the fact that you focus on the Hurd, when the Hurd is not the
issue, suggests a possible misunderstanding.  Are you identifying the
success of GNU with the success of the Hurd?  The Hurd is just one part
of GNU, just one of many programs we developed for GNU.  The success
of GNU doesn't require the Hurd.

Some GNU packages have failed completely, and been abandoned.  You
have probably never heard of them.  But the GNU system overall is a
great success despite that.

    I mean, FreeBSD is a free system, yet why didn't it create an entire movement
    of free software like Linux did ?

Linux alone didn't do this.  It was the combination of GNU and Linux
that did this.

I don't know why the BSD systems did not become as popular; perhaps
it's because they became available some years later.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    In the linked document, it is stated "Linux is normally used in a
    combination with the GNU operating system".  I only wish to clarify, how can
    GNU be an operating system without the kernel?

GNU was not complete in 1992--we were still working on the kernel
of GNU.  (Today the GNU kernel works but needs a few more features
to be really good to use.)

It would be more precise to say that "Linux is normally used in
combination with the nearly all of the GNU operating system."  But
that sentence would be very clumsy.  Instead we state these details
later on in the page.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Helge Hafting]

Andrew Walrond wrote:
> 
> I am in almost complete agreement with you regarding the benefits of
> free drivers.
> 
> But my point has evolved from this argument over nvidia and I extended
> the principles to my business to see where it would lead.
> 
> I don't see rms saying "Non free software is bad, except games"
> 
Well, I don't speak for rms, and I think there is a rather big
difference between drivers and games.  I understand economic
motives.  Of course you don't give away games when that is a total
loss.  Giving away driver code (or at least programming specs)
wouldn't be a loss to nvidia though - because users would still
need to buy those cards.



Helge Hafting

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Valdis.Kletnieks]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1971 bytes --]

On Mon, 06 Jan 2003 13:05:59 PST, Ranjeet Shetye <ranjeet.shetye@zultys.com>  said:

> MS might have their names in the RFCs; doesn't mean that they really
> contribute positively to the community.

In addition, there's some slanted statistics being done here by Hedding....

> > From: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org 
> > [mailto:linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org] On Behalf Of 
> > Henning P. Schmiedehausen
> > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 12:41 PM

> > % cd /home/mirror/RFC
> > % for i in rfc*.txt; do head -20 $i | grep -iq microsoft; if 
> > [ "x$?" = "x0" ]; then    echo $i; fi; done | wc -l
> >     102     102    1224 /tmp/rfc-log
> > % for i in rfc*.txt; do head -20 $i | grep -iq 'red hat'; if 
> > [ "x$?" = "x0" ]; then    echo $i; fi; done | wc -l
> > % for i in rfc*.txt; do head -20 $i | grep -iq 'redhat'; if [ 
> > "x$?" = "x0" ]; then    echo $i; fi; done | wc -l

Hmm.. Zorn is an author 20 times, Aboba 16 (usually with Zorn), Huitema 15.

And of those 102, at least 8 are documenting Microsoft-specific things like its
CHAP and Kerberos extensions. So leave them out of the count, and we see that
just 2-3 guys are a third of it right there.  And Microsoft employs how many
people?  That's some *HUGE* dent in their manpower supply....

Meanwhile, looking in the MAINTAINERS file, I see 343 M: tags, of which
only 12 are redhat.com addresses (and only 7 unique ones at that). And
Redhat isn't primarily a development company, they're a packaging company.
The vast amount of Linux development would be elsewhere - it would be
fairer to compare RedHat's RFC output with the RFC output of Microsoft's
packaging and shipping department.....

Now how many RFC's has Ted T'so  written? And how much has he done for Linux?
Of course, he doesn't use a redhat.com address, so he doesn't count...

Naughty thing, those statistics - people keep trying to misuse them. ;)
-- 
				Valdis Kletnieks
				Computer Systems Senior Engineer
				Virginia Tech


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RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Ranjeet Shetye]

Five years back, when I was working on IPSec, MS wanted to subvert IPSec
deployment; replace it with L2TP (PPTP + L2F). I almost thought that
their IPSec clients were purposely and "randomly" faulty when it come to
interoperability. Drove the rest of us nuts while I guess their minions
in redmond were working on the real version of the ipsec client. That's
how unappetizing any interaction with MS was.

MS might have their names in the RFCs; doesn't mean that they really
contribute positively to the community.

Ranjeet Shetye
Senior Software Engineer

> -----Original Message-----
> From: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org 
> [mailto:linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org] On Behalf Of 
> Henning P. Schmiedehausen
> Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 12:41 PM
> To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed 
> source drivers?
> 
> 
> Tomas Szepe <szepe@pinerecords.com> writes:
> 
> >Even if I overlook that you're effectively comparing the 
> incomparable, 
> >Microsoft making 370 times more than RedHat says _nothing_ 
> about their 
> >actual achievement in terms of software development.  Should 
> you insist
> 
> You might simply open your eyes and look around you before 
> you utter such ridicioulous statements.
> 
> % cd /home/mirror/RFC
> % for i in rfc*.txt; do head -20 $i | grep -iq microsoft; if 
> [ "x$?" = "x0" ]; then    echo $i; fi; done | wc -l
>     102     102    1224 /tmp/rfc-log
> % for i in rfc*.txt; do head -20 $i | grep -iq 'red hat'; if 
> [ "x$?" = "x0" ]; then    echo $i; fi; done | wc -l
> % for i in rfc*.txt; do head -20 $i | grep -iq 'redhat'; if [ 
> "x$?" = "x0" ]; then    echo $i; fi; done | wc -l
> 
> 
> So in terms of "RFC contributions" which are the established 
> and accepted base on which to build the internet and "open 
> software", the score is
> 
> Microsoft Corporation vs. Red Hat Inc.
>     102                :    0
> 
> Some examples: 
> 
> rfc1877:	PPP Internet Protocol Control Protocol 
> Extensions for Name Server Addresses
> rfc2069/2617:	An Extension to HTTP : Digest Access Authentication
> rfc2193:	IMAP4 Mailbox Referrals
> rfc2237:	Japanese Character Encoding for Internet Messages
> rfc2338:	Virtual Router Redundancy Protocol
> rfc2342:	IMAP4 Namespace
> rfc2445:	Internet Calendaring and Scheduling Core Object 
> Specification (iCalendar)
> rfc2518/3253:	HTTP Extensions for Distributed Authoring -- WEBDAV
> rfc2565:	Internet Printing Protocol/1.0: Encoding and Transport
> rfc2616:	Hypertext Transfer Protocol -- HTTP/1.1 	
> (Yup. Microsoft)
> rfc2661:	Layer Two Tunneling Protocol "L2TP"
> rfc2782:	A DNS RR for specifying the location of 
> services (DNS SRV)
> rfc2989:	Criteria for Evaluating AAA Protocols for 
> Network Access (Microsoft. Sun. Cisco. Nokia.)
> 
> 
> 	Regards
> 		Henning
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen       -- 
> Geschaeftsfuehrer
> INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH     hps@intermeta.de
> 
> Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   info@intermeta.de
> D-91054 Buckenhof     Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
> -
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Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[J.S.Souza]

Richard,
In the linked document, it is stated "Linux is normally used in a
combination with the GNU operating system".  I only wish to clarify, how can
GNU be an operating system without the kernel? Don't get me wrong, I don't
wish to pick a fight of any nature.  It just seems to be inconsistant with
the terms being set forth in the article.  Shouldn't it be referenced as the
"GNU programs" or "GNU components" when talking about GNU without a kernel.

Regards,
J.S.Souza

-----Original Message-----
From: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Richard Stallman
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 9:13 AM
To: mark@mark.mielke.cc
Cc: lm@bitmover.com; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org;
billh@gnuppy.monkey.org; paul@clubi.ie; riel@conectiva.com.br;
Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net
Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source
drivers?


    You *chose* GNU/Linux to parallel Unix? I assume you mean that you
    influenced GNU into using a Unix base with the eventual goal of having
    some sort of GNU Unix base (the Hurd?). The words you selected above
    are rather assuming.

I decided in 1983 to develop a Unix-compatible operating system, and
then chose the name GNU for it.  In 1990, after finding or writing
most of the necessary components, we started developing a kernel for
the GNU system; that kernel is the GNU Hurd.  Since Linux was working
long before the Hurd, people mostly use GNU with Linux instead.

See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html for the history of GNU.
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Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Bill Huey]

On Mon, Jan 06, 2003 at 12:13:01PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> I decided in 1983 to develop a Unix-compatible operating system, and
> then chose the name GNU for it.  In 1990, after finding or writing
> most of the necessary components, we started developing a kernel for
> the GNU system; that kernel is the GNU Hurd.  Since Linux was working
> long before the Hurd, people mostly use GNU with Linux instead.
> 
> See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html for the history of GNU.

I hate to say it to you, but that URL reads like the typical BSD arguments
that I get, where embittered engineers whine about how a kernel is key to
and entire software development process. Both HURD and the BSDs are simply
irrelevant to the entire GNU/GPL phenomenon as we know it and has been
usurpted completely by Linux and all the applications support that has come
as a result of its popularity.

I mean, FreeBSD is a free system, yet why didn't it create an entire movement
of free software like Linux did ?

That's because they lack several components:
	1) Social and political awareness.
	2) Timeliness and ultimately completeness (useability).

BSD has (2) but lacks (1).  HURD lacks (2) and because of that, it can't
achieve (1).

Linux has both and was done in an open enough way that it not just gave the
foundation to the entire GPL movement as we know it, but also showed the
community that a large scale project like this has HUGE political, social
and economic implications that were previous unimagineable. HURD and the
old school GPL folks are irrelevant because it never had the scale or impact
of Linux, which is why Linux is pretty much it's own phenomenon outside of
GPL as you've stated it.  

I mean, you've got to accept that and give folks credit for achieving
these things.

bill

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Paulo Andre']

On Mon, 06 Jan 2003 12:13:01 -0500
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

>     You *chose* GNU/Linux to parallel Unix? I assume you mean that you
>     influenced GNU into using a Unix base with the eventual goal of having
>     some sort of GNU Unix base (the Hurd?). The words you selected above
>     are rather assuming.
> 
> I decided in 1983 to develop a Unix-compatible operating system, and
> then chose the name GNU for it.  In 1990, after finding or writing
> most of the necessary components, we started developing a kernel for
> the GNU system; that kernel is the GNU Hurd.  Since Linux was working
> long before the Hurd, people mostly use GNU with Linux instead.

Richard,

I have the utmost respect for your earlier efforts which were of unquestionable
importance for the dawn of the free software movement. Can't say the same for
your sick GNU/Linux rant though. But considering this is the linux-kernel
_development_ list (let alone the fact that this discussion stinks) I do think
it would be a much better move if you and your zealots would go away and
(perhaps) actually go do some CODING on your GNU/Hurd/whatever instead. All
this ranting is more than likely why it got started in 1990 and it's still not
near finished.

		Paulo Andre'

RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[RIZEN]

Richard,
In the linked document, it is stated "Linux is normally used in a
combination with the GNU operating system".  I only wish to clarify, how can
GNU be an operating system without the kernel? Don't get me wrong, I don't
wish to pick a fight of any nature.  It just seems to be inconsistant with
the terms being set forth in the article.  Shouldn't it be referenced as the
"GNU programs" or "GNU components" when talking about GNU without a kernel.

Regards,
J.S.Souza

-----Original Message-----
From: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Richard Stallman
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 9:13 AM
To: mark@mark.mielke.cc
Cc: lm@bitmover.com; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org;
billh@gnuppy.monkey.org; paul@clubi.ie; riel@conectiva.com.br;
Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net
Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source
drivers?


    You *chose* GNU/Linux to parallel Unix? I assume you mean that you
    influenced GNU into using a Unix base with the eventual goal of having
    some sort of GNU Unix base (the Hurd?). The words you selected above
    are rather assuming.

I decided in 1983 to develop a Unix-compatible operating system, and
then chose the name GNU for it.  In 1990, after finding or writing
most of the necessary components, we started developing a kernel for
the GNU system; that kernel is the GNU Hurd.  Since Linux was working
long before the Hurd, people mostly use GNU with Linux instead.

See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html for the history of GNU.
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Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    You *chose* GNU/Linux to parallel Unix? I assume you mean that you
    influenced GNU into using a Unix base with the eventual goal of having
    some sort of GNU Unix base (the Hurd?). The words you selected above
    are rather assuming.

I decided in 1983 to develop a Unix-compatible operating system, and
then chose the name GNU for it.  In 1990, after finding or writing
most of the necessary components, we started developing a kernel for
the GNU system; that kernel is the GNU Hurd.  Since Linux was working
long before the Hurd, people mostly use GNU with Linux instead.

See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html for the history of GNU.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Mielke]

On Mon, Jan 06, 2003 at 11:44:49AM +0100, Helge Hafting wrote:
> Mark Mielke wrote:
> > A closed source product with an expensive price tag provides this
> > level of responsibility to customers. (at least in theory)
> Nope.  Did anybody ever sue microsoft because windows crashed and ate
> the disk, destroying valuable data?  Or for loss of productivity during
> downtime?

Then the problem is that companies get away with marketting poor quality
solutions. They wouldn't get away with it if they sold a car, or a baby
high-chair. Why should they get away with it for software?

Software managed by the community cannot have a single point of
responsibility. I'm telling you why companies initially don't like
such products. I'm not claiming whether it is right, or whether it
applies in reality. If you want to convince a company otherwise, you
can't ignore the concern. You need to convince them that their feeling
of security from closed source projects is unfounded. It isn't hand waving,
or general claims like 'when have you ever been able to get MS to pay for
its mistakes?' It is hard numbers. These are not easy to come by.

mark

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                       and in the darkness bind them...

                           http://mark.mielke.cc/

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andrew Walrond]

I am in almost complete agreement with you regarding the benefits of 
free drivers.

But my point has evolved from this argument over nvidia and I extended 
the principles to my business to see where it would lead.

I don't see rms saying "Non free software is bad, except games"

Andrew

Helge Hafting wrote:
> Andrew Walrond wrote:
> 
>>Helge Hafting wrote:
>>
>>>Andrew Walrond wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Am I a bad person charging for my work?
>>>
>>>No.
>>
>>Goodie!
>>
>>
>>>>Really - I want to understand so I too can join this merry band of happy
>>>>people giving everything away for free!
>>>>
>>>
>>>Nobody give everything away from free.  Free software, in particular,
>>>runs
>>>on boxes that cost money.  And people sell service and support.
>>>
>>
>>But I don't sell service, or support. I sell *software*
>>Am I bad again ?
> 
> No - there's nothing wrong in selling software.  I buy it if I want
> it, or don't if I don't think it is worth the money.
> 
> Of course the same apply to nvidia - I choose not to buy their hardware
> _because_ of their secrecy.  Many aren't that lucky, you can't usually
> dictate the components of a work machine.
> 
> 
>>>The problem with nvidia isn't that they charge money.  The problem
>>>is that their product comes with strange restrictions.
>>>
>>
>>Ah - I see
>>
>>
>>>The problems are:
>>>1) The drivers are closed-source, so we can't fix the bugs.  (Yes,
>>>   there are bugs, and no, nvidia don't fix them immediately.  So
>>>   it'd be nice for us who understand C to fix this ourselves.
>>>   Releasing the code don't won't cost nvidia because they aren't
>>>   making money on it.  They might actually sell _more_ hardware
>>>   if they released the code.  So keeping it secret don't make sense
>>>   even from a extreme greediness viewpoint.  Such a driver can't
>>>   be made to work with a competing product either with a few tweaks.
>>>
>>
>>Oh. But I don't give you the source code to my game. Crikey - How are
>>going to debug it if it breaks??? Am I bad again ?
>>
> 
> You can't compare your games to nvidia drivers.  Your game might have
> a problem, but that is a problem with the game only.  Trouble
> with video drivers means you can't use the computer properly
> at all.  
> 
> Most people don't bother debugging a video game - if it is crap, they
> don't play it.  Because they don't need it.  It is just a fun
> thing _if_ it works.  You need working video hardware though - under
> all circumstances.
> 
> 
>>>2) Still, they _may_ have reasons not to release the code, perhaps
>>>   a patended algorithm or some such.  They could at least release the
>>>   specs for their card, so a free driver could be written from scratch.
>>>   But they don't do that either - strange.  Some manufacturers _do_
>>>   this, with no ill effects.  They get a slightly bigger market because
>>>   their equipment is ok with the free software world.
>>>
>>
>>Gosh, they are naughty aren't they. But I can't release the source
>>either, because little jonnie and his mates will all copy it and I'll go
>>bust and I'll lose my house and my wife will leave me. Oh what a dilema!
>>Am I a bad man ?
> 
> 
> I repeat - the two cases aren't comparable.  People need fixable drivers
> and
> docs so their screen will work under all circumstances - including
> future changes in the os.  
> 
> A game isn't like that at all. Nothing depends on it other than the game
> itself.
> Particularly, no expensive hardware depends on it.
>  
> 
>>>This is very much like selling cars were the gas tank is locked, and
>>>you don't have the key.  The gas stations have keys, but only
>>>some of them.  So you can't fill anywhere.
>>>Or a tv that don't work on thursdays. Silly in the extreme,
>>>annoying for the user and no benefit for the manufacturer.
>>>
>>>Helge Hafting
>>>
>>
>>Thanks for explaining that.
>>
>>I'm gonna hand myself in. I can hardly believe how bad I am. BAD Andrew.
>>Bad bad bad!
>>
>>[Tongue so firmly in cheek that it hurts ;) Sorry Helge - I know you
>>mean well!]
> 
> 
> Try to understand this:  the problems with nvidia does not apply to your
> gaming business.  Both of you sell some closed-source software, that
> don't
> make you equal at all though.  In your case the software game is the
> product.
> In nvidia's case the software is merely something necessary to make the
> hardware product work.
> 
> Good open-source drivers is a huge win for us and a small win for
> nvidia,
> they have nothing to loose here.  Your situation is different, open
> source
> might make the game impossible to sell, as you say.  Most people
> understand
> and accept that.
> 
> Helge Hafting
> 

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Helge Hafting]

Mark Mielke wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jan 06, 2003 at 01:43:22AM +0000, Ian Molton wrote:
> > On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:37:53 -0500 Mark Mielke <mark@mark.mielke.cc> wrote:
> > > Then one day - everybody upgrades to a new version of Linux. My
> > > support lines start ringing off the hook.
> > To which the answer is 'we dont support linux 9.8.4 yet, sorry.'
> 
> The question of responsibility remains unanswered. If the software causes
> unreasonable damage to the user's computer, who can be sued?

A question of little interest, since suing won't happen anyway.
The paid-for licences always include "This program may not
be useful for any purpose, we assume no reponsibility," and so on.
 
> A closed source product with an expensive price tag provides this
> level of responsibility to customers. (at least in theory)

Nope.  Did anybody ever sue microsoft because windows crashed and ate
the disk, destroying valuable data?  Or for loss of productivity during
downtime?
It can't be done.  Forget about it.  Paying for a os might get you
a support phone number, but _no_  more responsibility than free
sw downloaded from somewhere.  

Helge Hafting

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Helge Hafting]

Mark Mielke wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 02:42:14PM +0100, Helge Hafting wrote:
> > This is very much like selling cars were the gas tank is locked, and
> > you don't have the key.  The gas stations have keys, but only
> > some of them.  So you can't fill anywhere.
> > Or a tv that don't work on thursdays. Silly in the extreme,
> > annoying for the user and no benefit for the manufacturer.
> 
> Balderdash! It is like selling a car with free professional
> maintenance, but no manuals to allow you to repair your own car. :-)

You get free maintenance on your nvidia drivers?  _Enough_ maintenance?
> 
> It might be true that nVidia is actually limiting their market. Since
> that results in loss of money to nVidia, and not to you, it really isn't
> any of our call. 

It is a loss to me too - I might want to use that hardware - _if_
they would release the specs at zero cost to them.

Helge Hafting

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Mielke]

On Mon, Jan 06, 2003 at 01:43:22AM +0000, Ian Molton wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:37:53 -0500 Mark Mielke <mark@mark.mielke.cc> wrote:
> > Then one day - everybody upgrades to a new version of Linux. My
> > support lines start ringing off the hook.
> To which the answer is 'we dont support linux 9.8.4 yet, sorry.'

The question of responsibility remains unanswered. If the software causes
unreasonable damage to the user's computer, who can be sued?

A closed source product with an expensive price tag provides this
level of responsibility to customers. (at least in theory)

In my opinion, the chosen model should be based on economic feasibility,
not on religious persuasion. If open source truly is the better model for
a candidate product, the model will be used. Whether this takes the form
of the original product becoming open sourced, or a competing open source
product developed, the result is the same.

If you want to convince a company to change their model to be of the
open sourced variety, you will need logic such as the above to convince
them.

mark

P.S. I do realize that many people have experienced better 'support' from
     open source communities, than from companies. I consider this an
     amazing blessing that should not be taken for granted. The voluntary
     contributions that make this possible need to be respected as *beyond*
     what one should expect, and the volunteers themselves need to be
     respected as champions of the open source community. Anything less is
     taking these contributions and contributors for granted as a free
     resource available to be exploited.

     For example, if Red Hat were to claim that you should purchase
     the Red Hat distribution of Linux/GNU, because the open source
     community that produces most of the products contained within the
     distribution will provide better support than other commercially
     available *nix systems, Red Hat would be obtaining profit from the
     voluntary contributions of other people. This is not strictly right.
     (I don't know if Red Hat has ever done this... Just a scenario...)

-- 
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|\/| |_| |_| |/    |_     |\/|  |  |_  |   |/  |_   | 
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                           http://mark.mielke.cc/

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Philip Wyett]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2430 bytes --]

On Mon, 2003-01-06 at 03:25, Richard Stallman wrote:
>>     I think that everyone knows the connection between the Linux kernel and GNU.
> 
> I wish that were true.  Most of the people who know about the system
> have heard of "Linux" but they have not heard of GNU.  Geeks often
> think they know, but what they know is often wrong; for instance, they
> often say that "GNU is the name of a collection of tools that are used
> in Linux."  (See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#tools.)
> 

Hi,

While I agree with you that the system should be called 'GNU Linux' and
be referred too as such in communication etc. When your with a customer
advocating implementation of the operating system for example. You
cannot contradict and try force correctness/fairness of naming, unless
you want to annoy and turn your customer off too you! For most people in
the commercial world, we can use 'GNU Linux' when we write and speak
hoping people catch onto it and nothing really more bar explain if
someone asks why we call it 'GNU Linux'. You would I hope respect this.

Also the page you linked to is alot of the problem. Yes people have a
position on how something should be. However, too go on and on about it
just gets up peoples noses. On the page is the following segment:

"However, there are people who do not like our saying this. Sometimes
those people push us away in response. On occasion they are so rude that
one wonders if they are intentionally trying to intimidate us into
silence. It doesn't silence us, but it does tend to divide the
community, so we hope you can convince them to stop."

The rudeness is not intimidation or not liking you to mention it I feel.
Most people can be informed of something once or twice, but when it's
told too them a third, fourth and fifth time they get frustrated to the
point where the only means of communication is an outburst! Yes it is
not probably the best of language used, but what they are trying to say
is "Can you just change the record for a while please?". Sorry in
advance to the animal lovers. :) There is more than one way to skin a
cat and I think the preaching method has had it's day and more subtle
methods may prove more productive.

Regards

Philip Wyett

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Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    I think that everyone knows the connection between the Linux kernel and GNU.

I wish that were true.  Most of the people who know about the system
have heard of "Linux" but they have not heard of GNU.  Geeks often
think they know, but what they know is often wrong; for instance, they
often say that "GNU is the name of a collection of tools that are used
in Linux."  (See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#tools.)

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Ian Molton]

On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:37:53 -0500
Mark Mielke <mark@mark.mielke.cc> wrote:

> 
> Then one day - everybody upgrades to a new version of Linux. My
> support lines start ringing off the hook.

To which the answer is 'we dont support linux 9.8.4 yet, sorry.'

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Tomas Szepe]

> [hps@intermeta.de]
> 
> The original statement was 
> 
> --- cut ---
> "Microsoft making 370 times more than RedHat says _nothing_ about
> their actual achievement in terms of software development."
> --- cut ---

And it holds true, because

1) A huge part of RedHat's work in software development goes into free
(as in beer) software, which skews the better_product<->higher_revenue
correlation vigorously.

2) better_product<->higher_revenue doesn't work terribly well when the
market is dominated by a monopoly, does it?

3) Microsoft doesn't only sell software.

...

Don't make me come up with more.  Larry's comparison is totally laughable
if it is to support the thesis "Microsoft has achieved much more in software
development than RedHat."

-- 
Tomas Szepe <szepe@pinerecords.com>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Mielke]

On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 02:04:34PM +0000, Graham Murray wrote:
> David Schwartz <davids@webmaster.com> writes:
> > Fine, keep the drivers closed source. Just tell us what the
> > interfaces are and we'll make our own drivers. Maybe they're afraid
> > ours will be better. ;)
> Which could be of (commercial) benefit to them, as if the Open Source
> drivers were better than their own they could save money by not
> developing and supporting drivers and distributing the open source
> drivers.

Especially in the case of hardware, one of the primary reasons I suspect
companies to resist open source drivers is 'risk'.

Scenario: I invent some sort of fancy hardware that does some
incredible thing. Companies all over the world love my hardware, and
they install it on all of their computers. I use the profit to fund
more research, development, expanding my company into other areas, and
of course, some of the profit goes to the stock holders. My customers
want my hardware to work on Linux. I say hmm... well... it will only
cost 4 full-time people resources to do this... and I can even let them
do Linux development on the side when they aren't busy as a method of
letting my company be more popular in the open source community.

Then one day the suggestion is made to me -- why hire 4 full-time
people resources, when you can hire only one, release the code as open
source, and let the community manage it?

I think about it for a while. What could I possibly lose?

I do it. Open sourced drivers, YEAH! Cheaper for me, the customers love
it, and I even get free features that I didn't even think about.

Then one day - everybody upgrades to a new version of Linux. My
support lines start ringing off the hook. The thing doesn't work in
the new version of Linux! I plead with the open source community to
complete the work, but for some reason, these people are on vacation,
or want to be working on something else! Nobody is responsible for the
source code, and I can't do anything about it! I quickly make a plea
to a wider community "anybody have good references and can work on
this project ASAP for a very decent sum of money?" Finally, a week
later, the details are sorted out, and development begins. My
customers are mad. I have no control of the situation.

What is this head-ache worth?

I made this scenario up. It might have no bases on reality. However -
companies don't always fear only the scenarios that could happen. The
fear what shouldn't happen, that they cannot control. They have
to. They have thousands of stock holders who will have their neck if
they fail.

mark

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|\/| |_| |_| |/    |_     |\/|  |  |_  |   |/  |_   | 
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  One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
                       and in the darkness bind them...

                           http://mark.mielke.cc/

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> writes:

>On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 20:40, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
>> Tomas Szepe <szepe@pinerecords.com> writes:
>> 
>> >Even if I overlook that you're effectively comparing the incomparable,
>> >Microsoft making 370 times more than RedHat says _nothing_ about their
>> >actual achievement in terms of software development.  Should you insist
>> 
>> You might simply open your eyes and look around you before you utter
>> such ridicioulous statements.

>Your grep is faulty. Linux community members contribute to RFC's under their own names.

I looked for "RedHat / Red Hat". Not for "linux community members". 
That's what I wrote.

I didn't look for "Microsoft employees that contribute to RFC's under
their own names" either.

The original statement was 

--- cut --
"Microsoft making 370 times more than RedHat says _nothing_ about
their actual achievement in terms of software development."
--- cut --

BTW: Microsofts' contributions to RFCs has to me the same "face value"
as IBMs' contributions to the Linux kernel. It is an small piece of IP
( :-) ) given to get lots of leverage for closed/proprietary stuff.

>Try again

Nah. :-)

	Regards
		Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen       -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH     hps@intermeta.de

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof     Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Mielke]

On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 01:34:01PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
>     Linux is a copy of Unix.  There is very little new stuff in Linux.
> This is no coincidence.  GNU/Linux parallels Unix because I chose that
> design in 1983.  It is foolish to focus on innovation when you are
> starting a race with a multi-year handicap.  The first task is to
> catch up.

You *chose* GNU/Linux to parallel Unix? I assume you mean that you
influenced GNU into using a Unix base with the eventual goal of having
some sort of GNU Unix base (the Hurd?). The words you selected above
are rather assuming.

>     You get the idea.  Sun makes more in 2 days than Red Hat makes all year.
> This is very significant if money is your main goal.  Both GNU and
> Linux exist because of people who have different priorities.

Development costs resources. GNU has benefitted substantially from
resources offered for free by people that have other (usually non-GPL
or non-open source) means of putting food on the table. Respect this.

mark

-- 
mark@mielke.cc/markm@ncf.ca/markm@nortelnetworks.com __________________________
.  .  _  ._  . .   .__    .  . ._. .__ .   . . .__  | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/    |_     |\/|  |  |_  |   |/  |_   | 
|  | | | | \ | \   |__ .  |  | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__  | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

  One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
                       and in the darkness bind them...

                           http://mark.mielke.cc/

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Bruce Harada]

On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:40:32 +0000 (UTC)
"Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <hps@intermeta.de> wrote:

> rfc2237:	Japanese Character Encoding for Internet Messages

Yeah, and what a hash they made of that one. They wrote it themselves, and
they *still* ignore it... what hope do we have of them observing standards
that they didn't write?

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Alan Cox]

On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 20:40, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> Tomas Szepe <szepe@pinerecords.com> writes:
> 
> >Even if I overlook that you're effectively comparing the incomparable,
> >Microsoft making 370 times more than RedHat says _nothing_ about their
> >actual achievement in terms of software development.  Should you insist
> 
> You might simply open your eyes and look around you before you utter
> such ridicioulous statements.

Your grep is faulty. Linux community members contribute to RFC's under their own names.

Try again

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

Tomas Szepe <szepe@pinerecords.com> writes:

>Even if I overlook that you're effectively comparing the incomparable,
>Microsoft making 370 times more than RedHat says _nothing_ about their
>actual achievement in terms of software development.  Should you insist

You might simply open your eyes and look around you before you utter
such ridicioulous statements.

% cd /home/mirror/RFC
% for i in rfc*.txt; do head -20 $i | grep -iq microsoft; if [ "x$?" = "x0" ]; then    echo $i; fi; done | wc -l
    102     102    1224 /tmp/rfc-log
% for i in rfc*.txt; do head -20 $i | grep -iq 'red hat'; if [ "x$?" = "x0" ]; then    echo $i; fi; done | wc -l
% for i in rfc*.txt; do head -20 $i | grep -iq 'redhat'; if [ "x$?" = "x0" ]; then    echo $i; fi; done | wc -l


So in terms of "RFC contributions" which are the established and
accepted base on which to build the internet and "open software", the
score is

Microsoft Corporation vs. Red Hat Inc.
    102                :    0

Some examples: 

rfc1877:	PPP Internet Protocol Control Protocol Extensions for Name Server Addresses
rfc2069/2617:	An Extension to HTTP : Digest Access Authentication
rfc2193:	IMAP4 Mailbox Referrals
rfc2237:	Japanese Character Encoding for Internet Messages
rfc2338:	Virtual Router Redundancy Protocol
rfc2342:	IMAP4 Namespace
rfc2445:	Internet Calendaring and Scheduling Core Object Specification (iCalendar)
rfc2518/3253:	HTTP Extensions for Distributed Authoring -- WEBDAV
rfc2565:	Internet Printing Protocol/1.0: Encoding and Transport
rfc2616:	Hypertext Transfer Protocol -- HTTP/1.1 	(Yup. Microsoft)
rfc2661:	Layer Two Tunneling Protocol "L2TP"
rfc2782:	A DNS RR for specifying the location of services (DNS SRV)
rfc2989:	Criteria for Evaluating AAA Protocols for Network Access (Microsoft. Sun. Cisco. Nokia.)


	Regards
		Henning


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen       -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH     hps@intermeta.de

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof     Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   

RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Vlad@Vlad.geekizoid.com]

Dude,

  Give it up.  No one buys the GNU/Linux thing, and on LKML, it's really
just noise.  My understanding was that you acknowledged that the kernel was
"Linux" (or "Freax" as I once heard Linus refer to it on the radio, though
it was a professor of his that made him change the name, not an FTP admin)
and that most "Linux" distro's come bundled with 95% or so GNU software.
So, please - go join the Slackare, Debian, Red SHat, Mandrake, Connectiva,
etc mailinglists and rant about that crap, but please leave if off of LKML -
the signal to noise ratio is bad enough here without your "help".

  Also, I didn't see your answer to the question of weither hurd should be
called Linux/Hurd or not - given that you say much of what the rest of us
call "Linux" is, in your opinion, a derived work of GNU, and given that Hurd
borrows large chunks of Linux code, would you state your opinion on the name
for the record?  Thanks.

Regards,
Scott Lockwood
http://geekizoid.com/
http://sporks-r-us.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org]On Behalf Of Richard Stallman
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 12:34 PM
To: lm@bitmover.com
Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; mark@mark.mielke.cc;
billh@gnuppy.monkey.org; paul@clubi.ie; riel@conectiva.com.br;
Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net
Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source
drivers?


    Linux is a copy of Unix.  There is very little new stuff in Linux.

This is no coincidence.  GNU/Linux parallels Unix because I chose that
design in 1983.  It is foolish to focus on innovation when you are
starting a race with a multi-year handicap.  The first task is to
catch up.

The primary purpose of GNU is the freedom to cooperate.  Innovation is
nice, but secondary.  We followed the design of Unix because that was
the most reliable way to produce a working portable system.  We made
it compatible with Unix so that many users could easily switch to it.
We deliberately avoided innovative approaches in many cases--the
noteworthy exception being the GNU Hurd.  (Perhaps that exception was
a bad decision.)

Although innovation is not our primary focus, there is a fair amount
of innovation in GNU packages.  GNU Emacs is better than any previous
Emacs.  (The first Emacs was another innovation in our community.)
GCC was the first portable truly optimizing compiler, and the first
optimizing compiler that supported debugging.  Autoconf was an
innovation in portability technology.  Looking elsewhere in our
community, Perl and Python seem to be innovative; the X Window System
was too.  There are surely more examples that I don't know of.

    You get the idea.  Sun makes more in 2 days than Red Hat makes all year.

This is very significant if money is your main goal.  Both GNU and
Linux exist because of people who have different priorities.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>to contribute to free software.  We are fortunate that Netscape, Sun,
>and IBM, and the people who won their partial cooperation, did not
>take your advice.

Funny you mention IBM here. I was always under the impression, that
the IBM Open Source effort is mainly there to sell more boxes (which
are well supported by the "good guys' operating system" because they
offer and support open source GPL drivers.

And then run their applications on it, which are not, I repeat, _NOT_
open sourced or free.

So they give away a few drivers which doesn't earn any money anyway,
get lots of good publicity and community support for free and also put
a foot in the back of a company which they don't like but have to
license/support their OS anyway (Microsoft).

To my (and obviously to the clued people inside IBM) this sounds
win-win.

You can do this if you're IBM.

Any before you ask why I wrote this: To me, by calling IBM "the good
guys", you're activly promoting their non-free, close-sourced
applications running on top of Linux (and their hardware).

"Stallman called IBM the good guys. Buy their Websphere application
suite running on Linux on eSeries Hardware. Film at 11".

They're not an open source company. Neither are Sun (which also sells
Hardware and applications; ironically their iPlanet stuff comes from
Netscape) or Netscape (their Applications are now called "iPlanet" and
come from Sun =:-) and with open sourcing their browser they didn't
give away anything; they already lost the browser wars to Microsoft
and noone could read their code anyway).

But all three sucked you into saying "IBM, Sun and Netscape
contributed to free software". But you don't understand their
motive. Which is money. And the stuff that earns the money wasn't open
sourced at all.

	Regards
		Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen       -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH     hps@intermeta.de

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof     Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    Linux is a copy of Unix.  There is very little new stuff in Linux.

This is no coincidence.  GNU/Linux parallels Unix because I chose that
design in 1983.  It is foolish to focus on innovation when you are
starting a race with a multi-year handicap.  The first task is to
catch up.

The primary purpose of GNU is the freedom to cooperate.  Innovation is
nice, but secondary.  We followed the design of Unix because that was
the most reliable way to produce a working portable system.  We made
it compatible with Unix so that many users could easily switch to it.
We deliberately avoided innovative approaches in many cases--the
noteworthy exception being the GNU Hurd.  (Perhaps that exception was
a bad decision.)

Although innovation is not our primary focus, there is a fair amount
of innovation in GNU packages.  GNU Emacs is better than any previous
Emacs.  (The first Emacs was another innovation in our community.)
GCC was the first portable truly optimizing compiler, and the first
optimizing compiler that supported debugging.  Autoconf was an
innovation in portability technology.  Looking elsewhere in our
community, Perl and Python seem to be innovative; the X Window System
was too.  There are surely more examples that I don't know of.

    You get the idea.  Sun makes more in 2 days than Red Hat makes all year.

This is very significant if money is your main goal.  Both GNU and
Linux exist because of people who have different priorities.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Graham Murray]

David Schwartz <davids@webmaster.com> writes:

> Fine, keep the drivers closed source. Just tell us what the
> interfaces are and we'll make our own drivers. Maybe they're afraid
> ours will be better. ;)

Which could be of (commercial) benefit to them, as if the Open Source
drivers were better than their own they could save money by not
developing and supporting drivers and distributing the open source
drivers.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Matthias Andree]

On Sun, 05 Jan 2003, Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:

> AMEN BROTHER. SING IT.
> 
> Dean McEwan, If the drugs don't work, [sarcasm] take more...[/sarcasm].

What is your personal roster of OpenSource work you did in the past
again?

And no, I'm not singing it for someone who doesn't seem to look at
either side but only one.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Tomas Szepe]

> [lm@bitmover.com]
> 
> And we all agree that they are the leader in the free software financial
> success stories, right?  Who's bigger?  IBM?  Let's see, spent $1B and
> by their own statements "almost have made that back".  Hmm, running at
> a loss but going to make it up on volume.
> 
> Now let's compare to some closed source companies:
> 
> 	Company		Factor more revenue than Red Hat
> 	Microsoft	370
> 	Oracle		116
> 	Sun		150
> 
> You get the idea.  Sun makes more in 2 days than Red Hat makes all year.
> It doesn't even take Microsoft a whole day to make what Red Hat makes in
> a year.

Warning: stdin:8: comparison is always false due to limited range of data.

Even if I overlook that you're effectively comparing the incomparable,
Microsoft making 370 times more than RedHat says _nothing_ about their
actual achievement in terms of software development.  Should you insist
on that correlation, though, I'd recommend you cancel your Wired magazine
subscription as soon as possible, because continuing to read their stuff
might put your health at stake. <g>

-- 
Tomas Szepe <szepe@pinerecords.com>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Chief Gadgeteer]

On Sat, 2003-01-04 at 17:26, David Schwartz wrote:
> 	Believe it or not, the easiest way to get rich is to provide people 
> what they want at a reasonable price. The purpose of money is to 
> provide an incentive for other people to do what you most need done.

I agree.  Thus, if there is a significant difference in our points of
view it must be one of semantics as to what "get rich" means.

/* opps, this got rather long winded */

My main objection is that those who seek to "get rich" then seek to get
even richer by using their wealth to distort the playing field in their
favor by various means.  Or those who would claim innocence while
exploiting non-ethical methods pioneered by others.  The latter would be
those who take the position that it is OK to leverage the concept of
"intellectual property" because it is what all the wealthy folks are
doing.

When I was born (1961) something like 50% of the wealth in the US
belonged to 40% of the people.  Today, over 90% of the wealth belongs to
less the 5% of the people. (The statistics in the last two sentences are
vague memory, I do not stand behind their absolute accuracy.)  When my
father bought his home in 1970 for $21,000 he was making about $10 an
hour as a highly skilled carpenter.  Such a highly skilled carpenter in
the same region makes not quite twice that today.  However, the same
home now sells for about $145,000 or more than seven times as much.  For
the majority of Americans these trends hold true i.e. stagnant wages
while the cost of everything goes through the ceiling.  The exceptions
to this are those who work in fields that control the flow of
information in some way.  These methods include such means as lobbying
successful for laws that promote or protect certain business models,
limiting who might enter a field by raising the bar to entry, asserting
"intellectual property" rights, and questionable business practices that
lead to a market monopoly.

I wonder how it looked to the rest of a society when a power elite
emerged in the past?  Would there not have been many parallels to what
we are seeing today?  Would they have not heard many of the same
arguments being used today?  Would not many of the influential
dissenters have been bought off by giving them a vested interest in the
emerging/existent power structure?

As was commented elsewhere in this ridiculous thread, it is funny how
one's tune changes once they too own a piece of intellectual property.

-- 
Chief Gadgeteer
Elegant Innovations

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[David Schwartz]

On 04 Jan 2003 17:00:08 -0700, Chief Gadgeteer wrote:

>I question the ethics and motivation of anyone who does something to
>"get rich".  As opposed to someone who does something to benefit
>themselves and others and (due to the structure of modern society)
>make a comfortable living.

	Believe it or not, the easiest way to get rich is to provide people 
what they want at a reasonable price. The purpose of money is to 
provide an incentive for other people to do what you most need done.

	DS

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Chief Gadgeteer]

On Sat, 2003-01-04 at 15:23, Larry McVoy wrote:
> Now let's compare to some closed source companies:
> 
> 	Company		Factor more revenue than Red Hat
> 	Microsoft	370
> 	Oracle		116
> 	Sun		150

These companies you mention make enormous profit margins as a result of
'protectionist laws', illegal business practices, and other non-ethical
means (to varying degrees).  They spend large sums of money to buy
politicians to slant the playing field in their favor.  The list goes
on...

As a general rule of thumb any corporation that is worth billions of
dollars got there by exploiting a lot of somebodies along the way.

I question the ethics and motivation of anyone who does something to
"get rich".  As opposed to someone who does something to benefit
themselves and others and (due to the structure of modern society) make
a comfortable living.

I am no Stallman fan but it is fair to say that much regarding
copyright, patent law (and especially the USPTO), and other
"intellectual property" law/practice is broken.  These things were
broken by those motivated by the desire to "get rich".

P.S.  I am and have been self-employed the majority of my adult life.

-- 
Chief Gadgeteer
Elegant Innovations

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Rutherford]

Richard Stallman wrote:

>     And Linux is the best thing that ever happend to GNU.
>
> It was certainly a very good thing--it filled the last gap in the
> system.  100% of an operating system is a lot more useful than 95%.
>
>     Would you be happy if it were called Linux/GNU, for example?
>
> It's appropriate to put GNU first since it came first, but that's a
> secondary question so I won't argue about it.  "Linux/GNU" gives us
> equal mention, and that is a lot better than just "Linux".  Thank you
> in advance if you do that.
>

Does it matter that GNU came first?
Debian uses GNU in it, hence Debian GNU/Linux
But... Linux is just a kernel, its not a 'complete' OS, thats why its not the
GNU/Linux kernel
I think your argument should be that a distribution should be named, for
example:
Redhat GNU/Linux, or SuSE GNU/Linux
...whats the problem?
I think the debate about what the distribution should be called should be
argued with the maintainers of that distribution, not with the
maintainers of the Linux kernel, or its contributors
I wouldnt mind if I saw 'Gentoo GNU/Linux'
I think that everyone knows the connection between the Linux kernel and GNU.


P.S. I dont use a distribution, I built my Linux based operating system out of
GNU programs and utilities with a Linux kernel.
I used to use Slackware Linux...  But, I have since become dangerous :-)
I dont have a name for it. its just my workstation :)


>
> -
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> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

--
Regards,
Mark Rutherford
mark@justirc.net


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Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    And Linux is the best thing that ever happend to GNU.

It was certainly a very good thing--it filled the last gap in the
system.  100% of an operating system is a lot more useful than 95%.

    Would you be happy if it were called Linux/GNU, for example?

It's appropriate to put GNU first since it came first, but that's a
secondary question so I won't argue about it.  "Linux/GNU" gives us
equal mention, and that is a lot better than just "Linux".  Thank you
in advance if you do that.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    > The clear part of your statement is your attitude toward our
    > community.  You express derision for the very idea of asking a company
    > to contribute to free software.  We are fortunate that Netscape, Sun,
    > and IBM, and the people who won their partial cooperation, did not
    > take your advice.

    News flash: it's a well documented fact that there was nobody at Sun who
    before or since has spent as much time as I have trying to free up Sun's
    code.  

Please tell your earlier self that I appreciate his work, and that I
am glad that that the opposition expressed in your previous message
did not deter him from doing it.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    How about expanding the acronym IP to mean "intellectual patrimony" ?

The term "intellectual patrimony" might be a good one for some
purposes, but if you want people to know you are using it, I suggest
you spell it out in full every time.  At present, when people see the
abbreviation "IP", they will think "intellectual property".

However, it is usually best to talk about "copyright", or about
"patents", or about "trademarks", and avoid generalizations that would
tend to blur the boundaries.  The widespread use of "intellectual
property" leads people to suppose these laws (and the issues they
raise) are mostly similar, but they are not.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Steven Barnhart]

> Linux is a copy of Unix.  There is very little new stuff in Linux.
> All of the innovation is built on top of a copy of a commercial work.
>
> To date, nothing remotely as influential as Unix has come out of the
> open source community.  Sure, there are a ton of copies of existing work,
> that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about new things.  I keep
> coming back to this because some of you refuse to get it.  It costs A LOT
> OF MONEY TO MAKE NEW STUFF.  Because we are stupid, we all make a lot of
> mistakes, we throw away those mistakes.  The free software model doesn't
> generate 1/1000th of the money it would take to make progress continue
> at its current rate in the software world.  Don't believe me?  Cool.
> Go start a company, GPL your work, get back to me in 5 years and show
> me how well it worked.
>
> Other than distributions, where are those free software success stories?
> Oh, yes, Cygnus.  They were doing about $25M/year or so when redhat bought
> them.  Whoopee.  And Red Hat, *with* Cygnus, is doing all of $80M/year.
> And we all agree that they are the leader in the free software financial
> success stories, right?  Who's bigger?  IBM?  Let's see, spent $1B and
> by their own statements "almost have made that back".  Hmm, running at
> a loss but going to make it up on volume.

Sun makes more in 2 days than Red Hat makes all year.
> It doesn't even take Microsoft a whole day to make what Red Hat makes in
> a year.

Something rms is totally ignoring..wonder how much the fsf makes oh wait,
they probably believe in the "we don't need money if we are helping make
software more free and available for the users" approach. Anyways this
really needs to end. Bottom line..OSS is the best especially when battling
MS. No one company controls something. Problem...if you care to make a hefty
profit their may be some quirks you need to address. Don't get me wrong I
use OSS as much as possible but I'd proably go with the "recover the
developing costs before gpl'ng it" approach.

Steven

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Larry McVoy]

On Sat, Jan 04, 2003 at 11:06:51PM +0100, Matthias Andree wrote:
> It's useful to have people around that think in other directions, they
> make up for innovation. Linux is an offspring of such people's thoughts.

Linux is a copy of Unix.  There is very little new stuff in Linux.
All of the innovation is built on top of a copy of a commercial work.

To date, nothing remotely as influential as Unix has come out of the
open source community.  Sure, there are a ton of copies of existing work,
that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about new things.  I keep
coming back to this because some of you refuse to get it.  It costs A LOT
OF MONEY TO MAKE NEW STUFF.  Because we are stupid, we all make a lot of
mistakes, we throw away those mistakes.  The free software model doesn't
generate 1/1000th of the money it would take to make progress continue
at its current rate in the software world.  Don't believe me?  Cool.
Go start a company, GPL your work, get back to me in 5 years and show
me how well it worked.

Other than distributions, where are those free software success stories?
Oh, yes, Cygnus.  They were doing about $25M/year or so when redhat bought
them.  Whoopee.  And Red Hat, *with* Cygnus, is doing all of $80M/year.
And we all agree that they are the leader in the free software financial
success stories, right?  Who's bigger?  IBM?  Let's see, spent $1B and
by their own statements "almost have made that back".  Hmm, running at
a loss but going to make it up on volume.

Now let's compare to some closed source companies:

	Company		Factor more revenue than Red Hat
	Microsoft	370
	Oracle		116
	Sun		150

You get the idea.  Sun makes more in 2 days than Red Hat makes all year.
It doesn't even take Microsoft a whole day to make what Red Hat makes in
a year.

> This is exaggerated, but it might help stepping back and looking at the
> WHOLE system.

Indeed.  Look over your shoulder.  That's me, stepped way farther back than you.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	 lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitmover.com/lm 

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Matthias Andree]

On Thu, 02 Jan 2003, Larry McVoy wrote:

> Yeah, if only the company that has invested millions in trying to scratch
> out a place to stand, if only they would give us their intellectual
> property for free, if only, why then we could steal that IP and give it
> to other people.  And it would take us less time to do it if they would
> only cooperate.  Why won't they cooperate?

Keeping "intellectual property" to oneself is NOT what has made mankind
leave the trees and build up civilization, medical care and all that
stuff. Community is the cause, some people specialized in hunting or
agriculture, some in building houses, whatever.

I understand many existences currently depend on holding back
information (be that publishers of scientific journals, be that
entertainment; movies), and a lot of restructuring would be necessary if
"intellectual property" was no longer protected. Maybe it takes one won GPL
infringement law suit or two with adequate compensation paid to the
plaintiff that companies get trust into GPL. It might not work for
BitKeeper because that stuff needs too little support because it's too
good (the old "hey, why are you installing inferior software at
your clients' sites?" -- "to sell support afterwards") or something. ;-)

Seriously: would NVIDIA really lose if they open sourced the drivers?

It's their hardware that really bangs and that carries the bucks into
their house. If someone is to reverse engineer what they're doing, they
can also reverse engineer the driver first and then the chip.

Of course, opensourcing means you can't cheat by just disabling
functions in software and you won't get away too long with cheating
benchmarks. Maybe people get the idea that cooperation is nicer than
competition unless it leads to a monopoly that's exploited.

> Give it up, Stallman, we live in a capitalistic world.  The Russians
> tried communism and it didn't work.  It won't work here either, the
> kernel folks aren't that stupid.  Some people actually do learn from
> history.

And globalization + capitalism makes it that eventually only a monopoly
remains. Look at the oil market, look at Microsoft, look at the car
market or even food or pharmacy. Mergers everywhere, leading to layoffs,
raised gains, less competition. Ooops.

It's useful to have people around that think in other directions, they
make up for innovation. Linux is an offspring of such people's thoughts.

And from what is to be heard about ATI, the Macrovision stuff for the TV
outputs is one of the major reasons they are holding back source code.
Now assume it's true and think about the driver situation again. The
movie companies prevent you from improving ATI's TV output, ultimately.

This is exaggerated, but it might help stepping back and looking at the
WHOLE system.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Alan Cox]

On Sat, 2003-01-04 at 06:55, Bob Taylor wrote:
> The former Soviet Union *was not* a communist system. Look up 
> their *full* name. Your views are Socialist pure and simple. 
> Didn't work for them.  Sadly for you neither can you.

Actually it was very much what became called "communist" - as opposed
to socialist which is closer to much of Europe, while the USA
is very much a Marxist state.

Now please take this OFF linux-kernel

-- 
Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Rik van Riel]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Brad Hards wrote:

> I _hate_ intellectual property.

So don't use the word at all, think of it as intellectual patrimony
instead.

Rik
-- 
Bravely reimplemented by the knights who say "NIH".
http://www.surriel.com/		http://guru.conectiva.com/
Current spamtrap:  <a href=mailto:"october@surriel.com">october@surriel.com</a>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Rik van Riel]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Marco Monteiro wrote:

> You make software. You have a business model, to make money, where you
> sell software. The software that you sell is NOT Free. Imagine, now,
> that you change the business model, continuing to make money, where the
> software you produce is Free. Wouldn't it be better?

Are you volunteering to set up such a business for Andre, or
are you just doing vague ideological handwaving ?

Andre does release his software eventually, after he has
recovered the development costs.  This is a lot more than
what most developers do and I am thankful that Andre's
business model means both an income for him and high quality
free software drivers.

> You understand now why I say that Free Software is good and non-Free
> Software is bad?

No, you haven't told us why.

> I'm a pacifist. If I where called to fight, I would not do it.

Does that also mean that if somebody called on you to do what
you're asking others to do (create free software while earning
money with it), you wouldn't do it ?

> The same with Free Software. I believe in Free Software, I think that
> every body should make their software Free. Maybe I'm just an asshole,

So you're asking, in the name of freedom, that other people should
limit their freedom ?

I wouldn't call it idealism, I call it hypocricy.

Rik
-- 
Bravely reimplemented by the knights who say "NIH".
http://www.surriel.com/		http://guru.conectiva.com/
Current spamtrap:  <a href=mailto:"october@surriel.com">october@surriel.com</a>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Daniel Egger]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 731 bytes --]

Am Fre, 2003-01-03 um 18.45 schrieb Andre Hedrick:

> Thanks!  Look how much I have given away, gee it is nothing.
> Only 80% or more of all IDE chipsets, I personally wrote.
> I am not allowed to make money to feed my family, pay from the cost of
> membership to standards, pay for the cost of joining working groups for
> new technology, pay for the cost of travel to the fore mentioned.

Please don't jump on this train. Actually you're bitching about people
whining; instead you should give people the possibility to pay you for
your *really nice* (though a bit cryptic at times :)) work.

Ok, I'd like to make a start: I'd like to donate, say €20 for now, do
you cash credit cards?

--
Servus,
       Daniel

[-- Attachment #2: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Vincent Bernat]

OoO En cette aube naissante du samedi 04 janvier 2003, vers 07:55, Bob
Taylor <brtaylor@canela.sanfelipe.com.mx> disait:

>> Inaccurate though it is, our enemies sometimes call us Communists.
>> Perhaps because Communism is easier to attack than our real views.

> The former Soviet Union *was not* a communist system. Look up 
> their *full* name. Your views are Socialist pure and simple. 
> Didn't work for them.  Sadly for you neither can you.

The former Soviet Union _was_ a communist system, whatever the full
name was. Keywords of communism are collective propriety and class
abolition. Everyone gets a work, everyone is paid the same amount. All
these are not relevant for socialism (it may have been revelant
hundred years ago and it may be the reason of the name, communism was
initially a strong and extremist form of socialism). Moreover, today's
European communism is just a strong form of socialism without these
two dogmas (in France, none of the communist aspirant pushed one of
these in the latest presidential elections).

Many Europeans country are controlled by a socialist government
(France was socialist until 2002, Germany is still socialist, UK is
socialist [definitely not capitalist], etc). None of them stated that
we have to give work for free. Your conception of communism and
socialism is probably wrong.

At least, I see absolutely no link between socialism and free software
or GNU. I suppose you have a strong example which will tell us why you
say that RMS' views are just socialism.
-- 
MY SUSPENSION WAS NOT "MUTUAL"
MY SUSPENSION WAS NOT "MUTUAL"
MY SUSPENSION WAS NOT "MUTUAL"
-+- Bart Simpson on chalkboard in episode BABF10

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Tupshin Harper]

Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:

>IMHO, if your wife would leave you for having no money shes an asshole. ;)
>
>Dean McEwan, If the drugs don't work, [sarcasm] take more...[/sarcasm].
>
>  
>
Does anybody else think that RMS managed to clone himself 13 years ago, 
and this guy is the unfortunate result?

-Tupshin

RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andre Hedrick]

On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, Jon Portnoy wrote:

> On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, Scott Robert Ladd wrote:
> 
> > > No .. then go somewhere else and discuss it. This is the kernel
> > > development list not a cross between a bad US talk show and the muppets
> > 
> > Now *that's* funny.
> > 
> > I don't know how the weather is where you are, but I appreciate a good flame
> > war during these cold winter months.
> > 
> > ..Scott
> > 
> 
> 
> And besides, wouldn't you like to see Rush Limbaugh arguing with Kermit 
> The Frog?

Oh but seeing Bill Clinton putting the moves on Ms. Piggy, would be the
best!


Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group

RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Jon Portnoy]

On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, Scott Robert Ladd wrote:

> > No .. then go somewhere else and discuss it. This is the kernel
> > development list not a cross between a bad US talk show and the muppets
> 
> Now *that's* funny.
> 
> I don't know how the weather is where you are, but I appreciate a good flame
> war during these cold winter months.
> 
> ..Scott
> 


And besides, wouldn't you like to see Rush Limbaugh arguing with Kermit 
The Frog?

RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andre Hedrick]

On Sat, 4 Jan 2003 Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:

> IMHO, if your wife would leave you for having no money shes an asshole. ;)

Continuing down the gutter, does that mean your wife is freely distributed
for anyone use, modify, bloat, but always return to you ?

Try again,

Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group

RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Hell.Surfers]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 229 bytes --]

IMHO, if your wife would leave you for having no money shes an asshole. ;)

Dean McEwan, If the drugs don't work, [sarcasm] take more...[/sarcasm].

On 	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 14:48:40 +0000 	Andrew Walrond <andrew@walrond.org> wrote:

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 4298 bytes --]

From: Andrew Walrond <andrew@walrond.org>
To: Helge Hafting <helgehaf@aitel.hist.no>
Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 14:48:40 +0000
Message-ID: <3E15A2C8.7060903@walrond.org>


Helge Hafting wrote:
> Andrew Walrond wrote:
> 
>>Am I a bad person charging for my work?
> 
> No.

Goodie!

> 
>>Really - I want to understand so I too can join this merry band of happy
>>people giving everything away for free!
>>
> 
> Nobody give everything away from free.  Free software, in particular,
> runs
> on boxes that cost money.  And people sell service and support.
> 

But I don't sell service, or support. I sell *software*
Am I bad again ?

> The problem with nvidia isn't that they charge money.  The problem
> is that their product comes with strange restrictions.  
> 

Ah - I see

> 
> The problems are:
> 1) The drivers are closed-source, so we can't fix the bugs.  (Yes,
>    there are bugs, and no, nvidia don't fix them immediately.  So
>    it'd be nice for us who understand C to fix this ourselves.
>    Releasing the code don't won't cost nvidia because they aren't
>    making money on it.  They might actually sell _more_ hardware
>    if they released the code.  So keeping it secret don't make sense
>    even from a extreme greediness viewpoint.  Such a driver can't
>    be made to work with a competing product either with a few tweaks.
> 

Oh. But I don't give you the source code to my game. Crikey - How are 
going to debug it if it breaks??? Am I bad again ?

> 2) Still, they _may_ have reasons not to release the code, perhaps
>    a patended algorithm or some such.  They could at least release the
>    specs for their card, so a free driver could be written from scratch.
>    But they don't do that either - strange.  Some manufacturers _do_
>    this, with no ill effects.  They get a slightly bigger market because
>    their equipment is ok with the free software world.  
> 

Gosh, they are naughty aren't they. But I can't release the source 
either, because little jonnie and his mates will all copy it and I'll go 
bust and I'll lose my house and my wife will leave me. Oh what a dilema! 
Am I a bad man ?


> This is very much like selling cars were the gas tank is locked, and
> you don't have the key.  The gas stations have keys, but only
> some of them.  So you can't fill anywhere.  
> Or a tv that don't work on thursdays. Silly in the extreme,
> annoying for the user and no benefit for the manufacturer.
> 
> Helge Hafting
> 

Thanks for explaining that.

I'm gonna hand myself in. I can hardly believe how bad I am. BAD Andrew. 
Bad bad bad!


[Tongue so firmly in cheek that it hurts ;) Sorry Helge - I know you 
mean well!]

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Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Bob Taylor]

In message <E18UYT2-0004xV-00@fencepost.gnu.org>, Richard 
Stallman writes:

[snip]

> The free software movement has always existed within Capitalism, and
> fits within the Capitalist system.  Our views have little in common
> with Communism--we encourage business as long as it respects other
> people's freedom to cooperate.  Nothing could be more different from
> the command economy that failed than the decentralized free software
> community.
> 
> Inaccurate though it is, our enemies sometimes call us Communists.
> Perhaps because Communism is easier to attack than our real views.

The former Soviet Union *was not* a communist system. Look up 
their *full* name. Your views are Socialist pure and simple. 
Didn't work for them.  Sadly for you neither can you.

[snip]

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bob Taylor             Email: brtaylor@sanfelipe.com.mx       |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
| Like the ad says, at 300 dpi you can tell she's wearing a     |
| swimsuit. At 600 dpi you can tell it's wet. At 1200 dpi you   |
| can tell it's painted on. I suppose at 2400 dpi you can tell  |
| if the paint is giving her a rash. (So says Joshua R. Poulson)|
+---------------------------------------------------------------+

RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Hell.Surfers]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 260 bytes --]

By admitting you do not understand, you have taken the first step ;) read the lgpl, use it for your game.

Dean McEwan, If the drugs don't work, [sarcasm] take more...[/sarcasm].

On 	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 20:21:38 +0000 	Andrew Walrond <andrew@walrond.org> wrote:

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2682 bytes --]

From: Andrew Walrond <andrew@walrond.org>
To: Jon Portnoy <portnoy@tellink.net>, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 20:21:38 +0000
Message-ID: <3E15F0D2.5040803@walrond.org>

Ah, so I'm not bad then - just confused!

Just to confirm then;

I am free to develop computer games, keep the source code closed, sell 
the software for cash, and I'm just a fine and dandy chap and Richard 
Stallman will be my bestest mate?

Fab! I'm so happy.

[ For non British among you:
Irony \I"ron*y\, n.[L. ironia, Gr. ? dissimulation, fr. ? a
    dissembler in speech, fr. ? to speak; perh. akin to E. word:
    cf. F. ironie.]
    1. Dissimulation; ignorance feigned for the purpose of
       confounding or provoking an antagonist.
    2. A sort of humor, ridicule, or light sarcasm, which adopts
       a mode of speech the meaning of which is contrary to the
       literal sense of the words.
]

Jon Portnoy wrote:
 > Educate yourself, then come back and discuss freedom.

You're having a laugh mate.  :)

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RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Scott Robert Ladd]

> No .. then go somewhere else and discuss it. This is the kernel
> development list not a cross between a bad US talk show and the muppets

Now *that's* funny.

I don't know how the weather is where you are, but I appreciate a good flame
war during these cold winter months.

..Scott

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Alan Cox]

On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 18:38, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> You don't understand "free" in this context. You're talking about free as 
> in price, we're talking about free as in freedom.
> 
> Educate yourself, then come back and discuss freedom.

No .. then go somewhere else and discuss it. This is the kernel
development list not a cross between a bad US talk show and the muppets

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Larry McVoy]

On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 10:31:58AM -0800, Bob Taylor wrote:
> In message <200301031729.36696.bhards@bigpond.net.au>, Brad 
> Hards writes:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > I _hate_ intellectual property.
> 
> Unless, of course, you happen to have some yourself.

Flaming on the kernel list:		$20 minutes.
Reading all the flames:			$120 minutes.
A flash of truth like Bob's statement:	Priceless.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	 lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitmover.com/lm 

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Samuel Flory]

David Lang wrote:

>if the server is just a comm relay this is true, but if the server
>implements real game logic then it's much less of a problem (show me the
>copycat everquest servers for example)
>  
>
http://www.eqemu.net/


-- 
There is no such thing as obsolete hardware.
Merely hardware that other people don't want.
(The Second Rule of Hardware Acquisition)
Sam Flory  <sflory@rackable.com>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[David Schwartz]

>Yeah, well I already did work for the SPOOKS of the cloak-n-dagger world
>the help deal with world terrorism and have yet to be paid!  I do
>electronic wire transfers in two stages now.

	I've had the opposite experience. I've found that the spooks pay on time and 
never haggle over price. Though I've had occasional surreal experiences like 
being asked if I could confirm that my software met a set specifications 
without being permitted to see those specifications.

	DS

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Mielke]

On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 10:55:13PM +0000, Andrew Walrond wrote:
> Of course I and probably many others are moving to a new model for our 
> games. I'm probably being more radical than most; Open Source client 
> software. Useless of course without a connection to my server side code :)
> It's the first game I've produced that is pirate proof.

If the game is good enough, it isn't pirate proof. I believe that Blizzard
and other such companies have pursued this course in the past. The result?
The hackers watch the communication between the client and the server and
write their own servers. They even go so far as to pretend as if the practice
is legal by putting disclaimers on the "public servers" that state that
"you may only connect to this service if you have purchased a valid license
for this game." Of course, they don't verify license keys...

mark

-- 
mark@mielke.cc/markm@ncf.ca/markm@nortelnetworks.com __________________________
.  .  _  ._  . .   .__    .  . ._. .__ .   . . .__  | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/    |_     |\/|  |  |_  |   |/  |_   | 
|  | | | | \ | \   |__ .  |  | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__  | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

  One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
                       and in the darkness bind them...

                           http://mark.mielke.cc/

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Jeff Garzik]

Alan Cox wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 18:38, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> 
>>You don't understand "free" in this context. You're talking about free as 
>>in price, we're talking about free as in freedom.
>>
>>Educate yourself, then come back and discuss freedom.
> 
> 
> No .. then go somewhere else and discuss it. This is the kernel
> development list not a cross between a bad US talk show and the muppets


Hey now!  Let's not be that insulting to muppets...

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[David Lang]

if the server is just a comm relay this is true, but if the server
implements real game logic then it's much less of a problem (show me the
copycat everquest servers for example)

as for validating license keys, if you want that to happen you have to
make the validation code public (which is possible if you use the right
algorithm)

David Lang


 On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Mark Mielke wrote:

> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 20:30:11 -0500
> From: Mark Mielke <mark@mark.mielke.cc>
> To: Andrew Walrond <andrew@walrond.org>
> Cc: Larry McVoy <lm@bitmover.com>, Samuel Flory <sflory@rackable.com>,
>      David Schwartz <davids@webmaster.com>, Marco Monteiro <masm@acm.org>,
>      linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source
>     drivers?
>
> On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 10:55:13PM +0000, Andrew Walrond wrote:
> > Of course I and probably many others are moving to a new model for our
> > games. I'm probably being more radical than most; Open Source client
> > software. Useless of course without a connection to my server side code :)
> > It's the first game I've produced that is pirate proof.
>
> If the game is good enough, it isn't pirate proof. I believe that Blizzard
> and other such companies have pursued this course in the past. The result?
> The hackers watch the communication between the client and the server and
> write their own servers. They even go so far as to pretend as if the practice
> is legal by putting disclaimers on the "public servers" that state that
> "you may only connect to this service if you have purchased a valid license
> for this game." Of course, they don't verify license keys...
>
> mark
>
> --
> mark@mielke.cc/markm@ncf.ca/markm@nortelnetworks.com __________________________
> .  .  _  ._  . .   .__    .  . ._. .__ .   . . .__  | Neighbourhood Coder
> |\/| |_| |_| |/    |_     |\/|  |  |_  |   |/  |_   |
> |  | | | | \ | \   |__ .  |  | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__  | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
>
>   One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
>                        and in the darkness bind them...
>
>                            http://mark.mielke.cc/
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Samuel Flory]

jdow wrote:

>From: "Samuel Flory" <sflory@rackable.com>
>
>  
>
>>  I simply question the idea that someone would need or want to download 
>>the source, and compile it for the purposes of piracy.  The current 
>>state of things seems to indicate the absence of source doesn't prevent 
>>piracy.  I suspect that I can find a usable pirated copy of virtually 
>>any popular software on the net.  This because copy protection doesn't 
>>work against any intelligent and determined person.  It works against 
>>the really lazy, and stupid who wouldn't be able, or want to compile a 
>>program any way.
>>    
>>
>
>There is a logic fallacy here, Samuel. Absence of source not preventing
>theft has nothing to do with the level and kind of theft if the source
>is placed out there for competitors to steal.
>

  There is no logical fallacy as I was talking in terms of consumer 
level piracy.

> When the hardware playing
>field is more or less even and the OS playing field is more or less even
>the only particular value added for games or for small marketplace code
>comes from wringing superior performance out of the provided components.
>When I place a piece of software out for purchase that features a new
>innovation in the use of a given hardware platform my competitors look
>it over intently, "How'd she do that?" I am pretty sure they can figure
>it out quickly enough. But, I still have a 3 to 6 month lead time to pay
>for the roof over my head before the competitors are selling the same
>feature. If I give then my source code that lead time goes away and I
>am left flipping burgers to pay for a coding habit. 
>

  Don't get me wrong I understand this.  This is why I feel most games 
would tend toward an escrow license if they tended toward any sort of 
open license.  You could claim this as a trend by citing  Doom, and 
Quake.   Few games have a shelf life much beyond 6 months.

  That said I've never bought a game because it had a certain feature.  
(Other than the ability to pause and issue orders in RTS.)
 

>Trust me, it ain't
>going to go down that way. If a benefactor cares to pay for my
>innovations and release them with source immediately then I am willing
>to play the game. I am not after world domination. I just want to pay
>for my food and housing and some hobbies so that my life is worth
>living. I'm just not willing to give away what should be creating a
>life for me. That way of living is an exotic form of suicide. As a
>software consultant my income is getting paid for my work. If I release
>that code to the public immediately it is ready for release I don't
>have an income. Both my stomach and the IRS get disappointed. The
>latter I can happily deal with. The former is more bother than I can
>handle.
>  
>
  I think you are taking this discussion a bit more serious than me.  
I'm just theorizing where trends are (or could be) heading.  Of course 
my livelihood has always been dependent on selling hardware;-)

-- 
There is no such thing as obsolete hardware.
Merely hardware that other people don't want.
(The Second Rule of Hardware Acquisition)
Sam Flory  <sflory@rackable.com>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Marco Monteiro]

On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 21:37, Disconnect wrote:

> > I'm a pacifist. If I where called to fight, I would not do it. I would
> > not fight for my country, because I don't believe in war, no matter
> > what. I believe no one should fight. You may say it is a bad position:
> > my country can be invaded, etc. and I must defende it. I say NO, I WILL
> > NOT FIGHT. I am convicted that no one should fight and I tell every body
> > they should not fight. I tell you: Don't fight. I believe the world
> > would be better if there were no wars. Most people would probably say
> > that I'm a fool, or maybe a wimp, but that is my philosophy.
> > The same with Free Software. I believe in Free Software, I think that
> > every body should make their software Free. Maybe I'm just an asshole,
> > but if I am, at least, I'm an asshole with convictions. And I'm
> > convinced that the world would be a better place if ALL software was
> > Free Software.
> 
> Um.  Heh.  I'm gonna leave this to stand, there's very little I can add
> that wouldn't reduce its humour.

I'm happy you found it funny. At least it serves the purpose of amusing
someone. :)

-- 
Marco Monteiro <masm@acm.org>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[jdow]

From: "Samuel Flory" <sflory@rackable.com>

>   I simply question the idea that someone would need or want to download 
> the source, and compile it for the purposes of piracy.  The current 
> state of things seems to indicate the absence of source doesn't prevent 
> piracy.  I suspect that I can find a usable pirated copy of virtually 
> any popular software on the net.  This because copy protection doesn't 
> work against any intelligent and determined person.  It works against 
> the really lazy, and stupid who wouldn't be able, or want to compile a 
> program any way.

There is a logic fallacy here, Samuel. Absence of source not preventing
theft has nothing to do with the level and kind of theft if the source
is placed out there for competitors to steal. When the hardware playing
field is more or less even and the OS playing field is more or less even
the only particular value added for games or for small marketplace code
comes from wringing superior performance out of the provided components.
When I place a piece of software out for purchase that features a new
innovation in the use of a given hardware platform my competitors look
it over intently, "How'd she do that?" I am pretty sure they can figure
it out quickly enough. But, I still have a 3 to 6 month lead time to pay
for the roof over my head before the competitors are selling the same
feature. If I give then my source code that lead time goes away and I
am left flipping burgers to pay for a coding habit. Trust me, it ain't
going to go down that way. If a benefactor cares to pay for my
innovations and release them with source immediately then I am willing
to play the game. I am not after world domination. I just want to pay
for my food and housing and some hobbies so that my life is worth
living. I'm just not willing to give away what should be creating a
life for me. That way of living is an exotic form of suicide. As a
software consultant my income is getting paid for my work. If I release
that code to the public immediately it is ready for release I don't
have an income. Both my stomach and the IRS get disappointed. The
latter I can happily deal with. The former is more bother than I can
handle.

{^_^}    Joanne, jdow@earthlink.net

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Samuel Flory]

Andrew Walrond wrote:

> Absolutely.
>
> Putting out the source for a game would be financial suicide. Unlike 
> (most) corporations, Kids don't understand or care about licenses. The 
> trouble with digital data as we all know is that it is infinitely 
> perfectly reproducible. In my industry (games), that includes binaries :( 


  I simply question the idea that someone would need or want to download 
the source, and compile it for the purposes of piracy.  The current 
state of things seems to indicate the absence of source doesn't prevent 
piracy.  I suspect that I can find a usable pirated copy of virtually 
any popular software on the net.  This because copy protection doesn't 
work against any intelligent and determined person.  It works against 
the really lazy, and stupid who wouldn't be able, or want to compile a 
program any way.

>
>
> Of course I and probably many others are moving to a new model for our 
> games. I'm probably being more radical than most; Open Source client 
> software. Useless of course without a connection to my server side 
> code :)
>
> It's the first game I've produced that is pirate proof.

>
> Somewhat like Larry's business model I think?
>
>
> Larry McVoy wrote:
>
>>> While some would argue that this leaves you open to piracy.  Let's 
>>> be honest how many pirates compile anything.  
>>
>>
>>
>> A prominent open source supporter once told me that "putting software 
>> out
>> there with any open source license is like putting it out there in the
>> public domain".
>>
>> The pirates absolutely know how to compile things and they do. 
>
Yes but why bother.  You don't need the source code to pirate software.

-- 
There is no such thing as obsolete hardware.
Merely hardware that other people don't want.
(The Second Rule of Hardware Acquisition)
Sam Flory  <sflory@rackable.com>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andrew Walrond]

Absolutely.

Putting out the source for a game would be financial suicide. Unlike 
(most) corporations, Kids don't understand or care about licenses. The 
trouble with digital data as we all know is that it is infinitely 
perfectly reproducible. In my industry (games), that includes binaries :(

Of course I and probably many others are moving to a new model for our 
games. I'm probably being more radical than most; Open Source client 
software. Useless of course without a connection to my server side code :)

It's the first game I've produced that is pirate proof.

Somewhat like Larry's business model I think?


Larry McVoy wrote:
>> While some would argue that this leaves you open to piracy.  Let's be 
>>honest how many pirates compile anything.  
> 
> 
> A prominent open source supporter once told me that "putting software out
> there with any open source license is like putting it out there in the
> public domain".
> 
> The pirates absolutely know how to compile things and they do.  

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Rik van Riel]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Richard Stallman wrote:

> If "have faith in freedom" means to assume it will take care of
> itself, that is always bad advice.

Agreed.

> One way we can defend our freedom is by refusing to buy the hardware
> that needs non-free drivers.  To make this pressure effective,

Absolutely agreed, this way we might even give nvidia an actual
reason to open up their driver.  Infinitely better than whining
about nvidia doing something they have all right to do...

regards,

Rik
-- 
Bravely reimplemented by the knights who say "NIH".
http://www.surriel.com/		http://guru.conectiva.com/
Current spamtrap:  <a href=mailto:"october@surriel.com">october@surriel.com</a>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Rik van Riel]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Richard Stallman wrote:

> The term "intellectual property" lumps together copyrights, patents,
> trademarks and other more obscure areas of law, all of which are
> totally different.  (See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html.)
> Its main use is to obfuscate the difference between these areas and
> discourage careful clear thinking.

How about expanding the acronym IP to mean "intellectual patrimony" ?

This reflects on both sides of the copyright deal and the patent
system:

1) the work/invention was created by somebody, who should be
   compensated as an encouragement to share the work/invention
   with the rest of humankind

2) ultimately the work/invention belongs to all of mankind and
   not to the author/inventor ... after all, the work/invention
   is based on thousands of years of cultural and technical
   development, the vast majority of which is used without any
   restrictions or royalties (eg. the wheel)

3) future generations should be able to use the new intellectual
   patrimony without any restriction, just like we are able to
   use old intellectual patrimony without any restrictions

kind regards,

Rik
-- 
Bravely reimplemented by the knights who say "NIH".
http://www.surriel.com/		http://guru.conectiva.com/
Current spamtrap:  <a href=mailto:"october@surriel.com">october@surriel.com</a>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Larry McVoy]

>  While some would argue that this leaves you open to piracy.  Let's be 
> honest how many pirates compile anything.  

A prominent open source supporter once told me that "putting software out
there with any open source license is like putting it out there in the
public domain".

The pirates absolutely know how to compile things and they do.  
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	 lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitmover.com/lm 

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[jw schultz]

I almost missed the best laugh I've had in a while.  Thanks
so much.  I'm sure it wasn't intentional on your part and i
don't wish to belittle your poor English but you might wish
to work on it.  It is not my habit to make fun of the
mistakes of others.

On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 09:19:49PM +0000, Marco Monteiro wrote:
> I ask you some questions.
> 
> You make software. You have a business model, to make money, where you
> sell software. The software that you sell is NOT Free. Imagine, now,
> that you change the business model, continuing to make money, where the
> software you produce is Free. Wouldn't it be better?
> 
> In the end, the fundamental question is: Wouldn't it be a better world
> if all software was Free and people continued to make money in other
> ways? You know the advantages and disadvantages of Free Software, so
> answer this question and you will understand my point of view.
> 
> Of course, I understand your point of view too. You think you can't make
> money any other way other than sell non-Free Software. But maybe, just
> maybe, that is possible, even for those that make games and don't see
> any other possibility.
> 
> You understand now why I say that Free Software is good and non-Free
> Software is bad?
> 
> I'm a pacifist. If I where called to fight, I would not do it. I would
> not fight for my country, because I don't believe in war, no matter
> what. I believe no one should fight. You may say it is a bad position:
> my country can be invaded, etc. and I must defende it. I say NO, I WILL
> NOT FIGHT. I am convicted that no one should fight and I tell every body
> they should not fight. I tell you: Don't fight. I believe the world
> would be better if there were no wars. Most people would probably say
> that I'm a fool, or maybe a wimp, but that is my philosophy.
> The same with Free Software. I believe in Free Software, I think that
> every body should make their software Free. Maybe I'm just an asshole,
> but if I am, at least, I'm an asshole with convictions. And I'm
> convinced that the world would be a better place if ALL software was
> Free Software.

I think he meant "everybody".  The word "everyone" would
have completely avoided the double entendre.  I should note
that in a draft you could be convicted.  Not every country
tolerates conscientious objectors and even the U.S. has
rather stringent requirements for that status.  And no, i
don't consider anyone who actually stands by such principles
when the going gets tough a wimp.


-- 
________________________________________________________________
	J.W. Schultz            Pegasystems Technologies
	email address:		jw@pegasys.ws

		Remember Cernan and Schmitt

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Samuel Flory]

Larry McVoy wrote:

>>However, with a license like the GPL, every game has to be developed on a 
>>proprietary base. You simply can't afford to put any money into an open 
>>source base. So every game has to start back from square one, or the most 
>>advanced proprietary base that can be found.
>>    
>>
>
>Back in the heyday of attention to open source, I spent hours and hours
>and hours on the phone with Raymond trying to get the OSI to come up with
>a "business source license" which would address some of these issues.
>think there is a strong need for something like that, but the GPL
>fanatics are desperate to paint the world as black or white and force
>people into an entirely open or entirely closed choice.  The reason they
>want to do this is that they know darn well that it is always the middle
>of the road compromise which wins, and they don't want to compromise.
>So we get these endless tirades about how the GPL is the One True Way
>and anything else is Evil.
>
>It was most unfortunate that I couldn't get anywhere with ESR.  If he and
>the OSI had come up with some compromises, rather than just pandering to a
>small but vocal group, I think that he would have cemented a significant
>place in history.  I am positive that the world will eventually move in
>directions where there is some sort of compromise, maybe something like
>you get N years of closed use and then the old stuff has to be opened,
>whatever.  The world already understands that you need to make money to
>survive and the world is starting to understand that there is value in
>having things be open.  
>
Well the 2 most obvious licenses would be usage based and escrow like.

1)  In a usage based license you would be required to posses a license 
to use the software.  You would posses the source,  permission to make 
modification, and permission to use the resulting binaries.  Ideally the 
license would also allow redistribution of patches, and reselling licenses.

   This is the sort of license I think Microsoft should be persuing with 
their larger customers.  Giving your customer source, with the ability 
to use modified binaries is just silly.  As far as games go you can see 
how this would work and stimulate sales just by looking at the mod 
community for Tribes, or Quake.  Or the use of the various 3D engines by 
3rd parties.

  While some would argue that this leaves you open to piracy.  Let's be 
honest how many pirates compile anything.  At most they disable the copy 
protection with hex-editor.

2)Escrow licenses are fairly common in business today for various types 
of custom software.  In essence the source is held by a 3rd party and 
given to the customer if the licenser is in breach of contract.   I can 
easily see a license not requiring a third party, but simply stating 
that the source would be released upon the software becoming 
unsupported, after a time frame, or if the vendor failed to address a 
certain class of bug within a time frame.

There is no such thing as obsolete hardware.
Merely hardware that other people don't want.
(The Second Rule of Hardware Acquisition)
Sam Flory  <sflory@rackable.com>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Disconnect]

I just can't let anything this silly go by.. 

On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 16:19, Marco Monteiro wrote:
> I ask you some questions.
> 
> You make software. You have a business model, to make money, where you
> sell software. The software that you sell is NOT Free. Imagine, now,
> that you change the business model, continuing to make money, where the
> software you produce is Free. Wouldn't it be better?

It'd be even better if you could change the business model so that you
made MORE money without having to even go through the effort of making
software, or even doing much of anything at all.  But (as you may
recall) that business model imploded rather dramatically last year or
so...

> In the end, the fundamental question is: Wouldn't it be a better world
> if all software was Free and people continued to make money in other
> ways? You know the advantages and disadvantages of Free Software, so
> answer this question and you will understand my point of view.

Anyone who opens a statement with "wouldn't it be a better world..." has
usually just found another variant on "..if wishing really hard for
something made it come true?"  This is no different.

> Of course, I understand your point of view too. You think you can't make
> money any other way other than sell non-Free Software. But maybe, just
> maybe, that is possible, even for those that make games and don't see
> any other possibility.
> 
> You understand now why I say that Free Software is good and non-Free
> Software is bad?

Yep.  Because you have wishes and horses confused.  (Or, possibly, were
hit on the head recently.)  Want to get them detangled?  Explain how he
can recoup his millions of dollars worth of game development by giving
it away; don't just say "it'd be swell if you did, and the world would
be better, honest" but say HOW.  As in "it'd be swell if you did, and
you can feed your family by <stealing/working in fast food/selling
someone else's game instead/....>"

> I'm a pacifist. If I where called to fight, I would not do it. I would
> not fight for my country, because I don't believe in war, no matter
> what. I believe no one should fight. You may say it is a bad position:
> my country can be invaded, etc. and I must defende it. I say NO, I WILL
> NOT FIGHT. I am convicted that no one should fight and I tell every body
> they should not fight. I tell you: Don't fight. I believe the world
> would be better if there were no wars. Most people would probably say
> that I'm a fool, or maybe a wimp, but that is my philosophy.
> The same with Free Software. I believe in Free Software, I think that
> every body should make their software Free. Maybe I'm just an asshole,
> but if I am, at least, I'm an asshole with convictions. And I'm
> convinced that the world would be a better place if ALL software was
> Free Software.

Um.  Heh.  I'm gonna leave this to stand, there's very little I can add
that wouldn't reduce its humour.

> -- 
> Marco Monteiro

RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Scott Robert Ladd]

Richard,

I admire your staunch stand; I don't always agree with it, but I admire you
nonetheless. I've been in the social justice business myself (and still am,
to a new degree); it ain't easy. In fact, I burned out a while back, and
decided to take a little rest.

Five years is long enough for rest, I guess.

> Making a program non-free is denying other people the freedom to
> study, change and/or redistribute it.  It is an act of domination.

Quite true. nVidia wishes to maintain control -- to dominate -- the market
for video cards. As such, they are reluctant to reveal details of their
product which might be useful to a competitor. In a system that looks at
benefit-loss in terms of dollars-euros-yen, there is no incentive for nVidia
to open their drivers or provide proprietary information.

Cash-strapped Universities accept corporate sponsorships, only to lose the
freedom to publish new discoveries. Drug companies keep their research
private, rather than combin efforts with other companies to produce better
medicines. These same problems underly draconian laws that have twisted
copyrights and patents into corporate "assets." From deforesting the planet
to the fight for "GNU/Linux", it all comes down to one thing: corporate
dominance of society.

And Linux is the best thing that ever happend to GNU.

Why?

Because outside a few technorati "in the know", few people had *heard* of
free software until Linux caught on. The term GNU/Linux is correct both
technically and morally, but the *term* is less important than the theme.
Linux has opened a door for the promotion of free ideals in the general
population -- a truly remarkable event!

Counterpoint: Linux would not exist without GNU.

The relationship of GNU and Linux should be mutually symbiotic, not
confrontational. Would you be happy if it were called Linux/GNU, for
example? Or does GNU need to be first for some symbolic or emotional reason?

The goal is not the self-promotion of GNU, but the advancement of
intellectual freedom. Instead of being ignored by nVidia, they are meeting
us part way -- and that's better than not meeting them at all! nVidia
produce good hardware, and they provide a free (as in beer) driver that in
turn attracts people to use Linux/GNU. Those people increase the audience
that hears about the value of intellectual freedom, and they (assuming they
*are* educated by us) put market pressure on nVidia to release
free-as-in-freedom drivers.

In other words, we use market forces to open windows of opportunity, through
which we illuminate the masses who were unreachable before.

Confrontation builds walls; wedges break them down.

-- Scott Robert Ladd

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Marco Monteiro]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3781 bytes --]

On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 17:45, Andre Hedrick wrote:
> On 3 Jan 2003, Marco Monteiro wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 12:51, Andrew Walrond wrote:
> > > Yes but....
> > > 
> > > I develop computer games. The last one I did took a team of 35 people 2 
> > > years and cost $X million to develop.
> > > 
> > > Please explain how I could do this as free software, while still feeding 
> > > my people? Am I a bad person charging for my work?
> > 
> > No, not you. Bad is the people you work for: the code you write is not
> > yours.
> 
> So since I work for myself and own my own companies, thus I own the code
> and I own the decision of what is published, I am the bad person?
> 
> Thanks!  Look how much I have given away, gee it is nothing.
> Only 80% or more of all IDE chipsets, I personally wrote.
> I am not allowed to make money to feed my family, pay from the cost of
> membership to standards, pay for the cost of joining working groups for
> new technology, pay for the cost of travel to the fore mentioned.
> 
> Yet you bitch and whine and hold your hand out for me to do it for free?
> 
> Well everything has a cost.
> 
> You know I still have plans to open source a version of a current product
> after I make some money and recover the 18 months of development, hardware
> cost, travel, trade show, future membership dues.  Why, because it is the
> right thing to do, and it will benefit me in the long run, and the open
> source.  It also will raise the bar for what people expect.
> 
> So I am bad, gee thanks.
> 
> Remember that the next time you buy a chipset that is not supported.
> I will look for a check in the mail from you to pay for the support
> services.
> 
> > You still don't understand the diference between the 'free' and 'Free
> > for Freedom'.
> 
> I understand that "FREE" does not pay the mortgage, pay for food, or pay
> employees, or anything else.  So you think GPL is welfare for the
> underclass, nice.

I ask you some questions.

You make software. You have a business model, to make money, where you
sell software. The software that you sell is NOT Free. Imagine, now,
that you change the business model, continuing to make money, where the
software you produce is Free. Wouldn't it be better?

In the end, the fundamental question is: Wouldn't it be a better world
if all software was Free and people continued to make money in other
ways? You know the advantages and disadvantages of Free Software, so
answer this question and you will understand my point of view.

Of course, I understand your point of view too. You think you can't make
money any other way other than sell non-Free Software. But maybe, just
maybe, that is possible, even for those that make games and don't see
any other possibility.

You understand now why I say that Free Software is good and non-Free
Software is bad?

I'm a pacifist. If I where called to fight, I would not do it. I would
not fight for my country, because I don't believe in war, no matter
what. I believe no one should fight. You may say it is a bad position:
my country can be invaded, etc. and I must defende it. I say NO, I WILL
NOT FIGHT. I am convicted that no one should fight and I tell every body
they should not fight. I tell you: Don't fight. I believe the world
would be better if there were no wars. Most people would probably say
that I'm a fool, or maybe a wimp, but that is my philosophy.
The same with Free Software. I believe in Free Software, I think that
every body should make their software Free. Maybe I'm just an asshole,
but if I am, at least, I'm an asshole with convictions. And I'm
convinced that the world would be a better place if ALL software was
Free Software.

-- 
Marco Monteiro

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Larry McVoy]

> The clear part of your statement is your attitude toward our
> community.  You express derision for the very idea of asking a company
> to contribute to free software.  We are fortunate that Netscape, Sun,
> and IBM, and the people who won their partial cooperation, did not
> take your advice.

News flash: it's a well documented fact that there was nobody at Sun who
before or since has spent as much time as I have trying to free up Sun's
code.  

Take a look at http://www.bitmover.com/lm/papers/srcos.html which Bob Young
credits as having a large influence on how Red Hat was set up, also well
documented.

Tell me again that I don't understand free software and that I'm against it
and all you do is make yourself look even more foolish.  Whether you want 
to resemble one of the wackos on soapbox in Hyde Park is up to you, but
that's what you look like.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	 lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitmover.com/lm 

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    What I see is a lot of people wait for new technology to be supported,
    yet do nothing to enable the ones who have access and are willing to take
    the risks of dealing with the vendors who are paranoid.

Yes, that is a shame.  How can we change that?  We have to spread the
word through our community that encouraging and rewarding Nvidia is
self-destructive until they cooperate with our freedom.

    What if they decide to thumb the nose at you?

I believe that is what they are doing now.  (Please correct me
if I'm wrong--I would be glad to hear it.)

    What if they decide to withdraw their drivers?

We would not lose any free software that way, and it might increase
the impetus for people to work improving on the free drivers.  In the
long run, this would be for the best.

    If people want to use "non-free drivers", they choose to execute the
    freedom to do so.  Now, what is clearly stated in your text is, FREEDOM
    means the vendor of the "non-free drivers" has NONE!

Making a program non-free is denying other people the freedom to
study, change and/or redistribute it.  It is an act of domination.  To
speak of the "freedom" to dominate others is to stretch the concept of
freedom into a Russell paradox.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

If "have faith in freedom" means to assume it will take care of
itself, that is always bad advice.

History shows that people who don't defend their freedom tend to lose
it.  There are many opportunities to lose one's freedom.  Businesses
even create them, hoping you will take the bait--many people do.  The
price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

One way we can defend our freedom is by refusing to buy the hardware
that needs non-free drivers.  To make this pressure effective, we need
to do it consistently; a haphazard boycott by occasional individuals
won't be felt.

Our community is not organized to do this consistently.  Most of the
people in our community have never thought about whether using
non-free drivers is a good idea; they probably don't even realize
there is a difference.  It isn't their fault--they hardly have a
chance to find out, because few individuals or organizations in our
community try to inform them.

If anyone is interested in doing substantial work on a project to help
the users identify which hardware to use, please write to me.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    Yeah, if only the company that has invested millions in trying to scratch
    out a place to stand, if only they would give us their intellectual
    property for free,

The term "intellectual property" lumps together copyrights, patents,
trademarks and other more obscure areas of law, all of which are
totally different.  (See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html.)
Its main use is to obfuscate the difference between these areas and
discourage careful clear thinking.

The clear part of your statement is your attitude toward our
community.  You express derision for the very idea of asking a company
to contribute to free software.  We are fortunate that Netscape, Sun,
and IBM, and the people who won their partial cooperation, did not
take your advice.

Of all the programs in our community, your hostility falls most
squarely on kernels, since kernels are where most drivers go.  Every
Linux developer should take note of the wishes you have just implied
for the future development of Linux.

    Give it up, Stallman, we live in a capitalistic world.  The Russians
    tried communism and it didn't work.

The free software movement has always existed within Capitalism, and
fits within the Capitalist system.  Our views have little in common
with Communism--we encourage business as long as it respects other
people's freedom to cooperate.  Nothing could be more different from
the command economy that failed than the decentralized free software
community.

Inaccurate though it is, our enemies sometimes call us Communists.
Perhaps because Communism is easier to attack than our real views.

It is the world of proprietary software and other non-free information
that resembles the Soviet Union.  The Soviet Union made strenuous
efforts to prevent and punish forbidden copying.  The US today is
using analogous repressive methods to do the same thing.  See
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andrew Walrond]

Ah, so I'm not bad then - just confused!

Just to confirm then;

I am free to develop computer games, keep the source code closed, sell 
the software for cash, and I'm just a fine and dandy chap and Richard 
Stallman will be my bestest mate?

Fab! I'm so happy.

[ For non British among you:
Irony \I"ron*y\, n.[L. ironia, Gr. ? dissimulation, fr. ? a
    dissembler in speech, fr. ? to speak; perh. akin to E. word:
    cf. F. ironie.]
    1. Dissimulation; ignorance feigned for the purpose of
       confounding or provoking an antagonist.
    2. A sort of humor, ridicule, or light sarcasm, which adopts
       a mode of speech the meaning of which is contrary to the
       literal sense of the words.
]

Jon Portnoy wrote:
 > Educate yourself, then come back and discuss freedom.

You're having a laugh mate.  :)

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Mielke]

On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 07:57:52AM -0800, Randy.Dunlap wrote:
> | Seriously though, just what is it that graphic CPU makers are
> | protecting?  I can't imagine "how to program our spiffy CPU'" docs exposing
> | anything important to their competition.  Imagine Intel or AMD trying that
> | tactic for _their_ next CPU.  What makes graphics CPUs so special?
> Imagine them doing that for their current CPU.
> That's what Nvidia is doing, isn't it?

It would be the same if Intel came with its own operating system, or if
nVidia hardware came without drivers.

As it is, it really *isn't* the same.

mark

-- 
mark@mielke.cc/markm@ncf.ca/markm@nortelnetworks.com __________________________
.  .  _  ._  . .   .__    .  . ._. .__ .   . . .__  | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/    |_     |\/|  |  |_  |   |/  |_   | 
|  | | | | \ | \   |__ .  |  | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__  | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

  One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
                       and in the darkness bind them...

                           http://mark.mielke.cc/

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Mielke]

On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 02:42:14PM +0100, Helge Hafting wrote:
> This is very much like selling cars were the gas tank is locked, and
> you don't have the key.  The gas stations have keys, but only
> some of them.  So you can't fill anywhere.  
> Or a tv that don't work on thursdays. Silly in the extreme,
> annoying for the user and no benefit for the manufacturer.

Balderdash! It is like selling a car with free professional
maintenance, but no manuals to allow you to repair your own car. :-)

It might be true that nVidia is actually limiting their market. Since
that results in loss of money to nVidia, and not to you, it really isn't
any of our call. If they are not yet comfortable with the GPL, then that
is the way it is. _I'm_ not comfortable with the GPL -- although that is
mostly Richard Stallman's fault, as I liked the GPL before he opened his
mouth...

mark

-- 
mark@mielke.cc/markm@ncf.ca/markm@nortelnetworks.com __________________________
.  .  _  ._  . .   .__    .  . ._. .__ .   . . .__  | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/    |_     |\/|  |  |_  |   |/  |_   | 
|  | | | | \ | \   |__ .  |  | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__  | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

  One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
                       and in the darkness bind them...

                           http://mark.mielke.cc/

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Ben Greear]

Jon Portnoy wrote:
> You don't understand "free" in this context. You're talking about free as 
> in price, we're talking about free as in freedom.
> 
> Educate yourself, then come back and discuss freedom.

Please don't be so naive as to imply that there is no
coorelation between the freedom to download, compile, use,
and distribute source, and the freedom of not having to
pay for the source or binary.

While some enlightened few may donate a few bucks here and
there to free projects, the vast majority do not, and I do not
ever expect that to change.

For instance:  I wrote a vlan module for linux once.  And put up
a pay-pal donation cup.  I have received two donations of 50c each
in three years.  It actually amuses me that I got that much, and I
do not want anyone who reads this to even think of donating more. :)

And please don't mention the 'support model'.  This may work
for a few market segments serving big businesses, but it does not
appear to work at all for end-user applications.


> 
> On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Andrew Walrond wrote:
> 
> 
>>Yes but....
>>
>>I develop computer games. The last one I did took a team of 35 people 2 
>>years and cost $X million to develop.
>>
>>Please explain how I could do this as free software, while still feeding 
>>my people? Am I a bad person charging for my work?
>>
>>Really - I want to understand so I too can join this merry band of happy 
>>people giving everything away for free!
>>
>>Andrew
>>
>>-
>>To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
>>the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>>More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>>Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>>
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
> 


-- 
Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>       <Ben_Greear AT excite.com>
President of Candela Technologies Inc      http://www.candelatech.com
ScryMUD:  http://scry.wanfear.com     http://scry.wanfear.com/~greear

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andre Hedrick]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Jon Portnoy wrote:

> You don't understand "free" in this context. You're talking about free as 
> in price, we're talking about free as in freedom.
> 
> Educate yourself, then come back and discuss freedom.

How about understanding "freedom" has a price and that price is not "free".

The price is to do it yourself, or pay someone else to do it.
Regardless there are associated costs, so the context is correct.
You choose stop at the idea of "freedom" no the cost of granting the
"freedom".

Regards,

Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Jon Portnoy]

You don't understand "free" in this context. You're talking about free as 
in price, we're talking about free as in freedom.

Educate yourself, then come back and discuss freedom.

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Andrew Walrond wrote:

> Yes but....
> 
> I develop computer games. The last one I did took a team of 35 people 2 
> years and cost $X million to develop.
> 
> Please explain how I could do this as free software, while still feeding 
> my people? Am I a bad person charging for my work?
> 
> Really - I want to understand so I too can join this merry band of happy 
> people giving everything away for free!
> 
> Andrew
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
> 

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Bob Taylor]

In message <200301031729.36696.bhards@bigpond.net.au>, Brad 
Hards writes:

[snip]

> I _hate_ intellectual property.

Unless, of course, you happen to have some yourself.

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bob Taylor             Email: brtaylor@sanfelipe.com.mx       |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
| Like the ad says, at 300 dpi you can tell she's wearing a     |
| swimsuit. At 600 dpi you can tell it's wet. At 1200 dpi you   |
| can tell it's painted on. I suppose at 2400 dpi you can tell  |
| if the paint is giving her a rash. (So says Joshua R. Poulson)|
+---------------------------------------------------------------+

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andre Hedrick]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Andre Hedrick wrote:

> On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Larry McVoy wrote:
> 
> > > Remember that the next time you buy a chipset that is not supported.
> > > I will look for a check in the mail from you to pay for the support
> > > services.
> > 
> > Andre, Andre, Andre.  Have I taught you nothing?!?  Accept no checks,
> > only small unmarked bills in a brown paper bag.
> 
> Yeah, well I already did work for the SPOOKS of the cloak-n-dagger world
> the help deal with world terrorism and have yet to be paid!  I do
> electronic wire transfers in two stages now.

I should mention it is The Department of Treasury's Criminal Investigation
Division of the Internal Revenue Service who can not pay their BILLS!
This is in concert with all the partners in the Intelligence gathering
communitities, who are indirectly to blame for not paying their bills.

Then again who cares.

Later!

Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andre Hedrick]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Larry McVoy wrote:

> > Remember that the next time you buy a chipset that is not supported.
> > I will look for a check in the mail from you to pay for the support
> > services.
> 
> Andre, Andre, Andre.  Have I taught you nothing?!?  Accept no checks,
> only small unmarked bills in a brown paper bag.

Yeah, well I already did work for the SPOOKS of the cloak-n-dagger world
the help deal with world terrorism and have yet to be paid!  I do
electronic wire transfers in two stages now.

One to a front bank that relays to the second real one.
Pissy people who try to get their money back by rewinding the tapes!

I guess I will spend the profits on sharks, instead of maybe funding
projects.  See there are people who will do the right thing.  The part
people do not get is, they only do it when it benefits them also.

Cheers,

Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Larry McVoy]

> Remember that the next time you buy a chipset that is not supported.
> I will look for a check in the mail from you to pay for the support
> services.

Andre, Andre, Andre.  Have I taught you nothing?!?  Accept no checks,
only small unmarked bills in a brown paper bag.

:-)

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	 lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitmover.com/lm 

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andre Hedrick]

On 3 Jan 2003, Marco Monteiro wrote:

> On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 12:51, Andrew Walrond wrote:
> > Yes but....
> > 
> > I develop computer games. The last one I did took a team of 35 people 2 
> > years and cost $X million to develop.
> > 
> > Please explain how I could do this as free software, while still feeding 
> > my people? Am I a bad person charging for my work?
> 
> No, not you. Bad is the people you work for: the code you write is not
> yours.

So since I work for myself and own my own companies, thus I own the code
and I own the decision of what is published, I am the bad person?

Thanks!  Look how much I have given away, gee it is nothing.
Only 80% or more of all IDE chipsets, I personally wrote.
I am not allowed to make money to feed my family, pay from the cost of
membership to standards, pay for the cost of joining working groups for
new technology, pay for the cost of travel to the fore mentioned.

Yet you bitch and whine and hold your hand out for me to do it for free?

Well everything has a cost.

You know I still have plans to open source a version of a current product
after I make some money and recover the 18 months of development, hardware
cost, travel, trade show, future membership dues.  Why, because it is the
right thing to do, and it will benefit me in the long run, and the open
source.  It also will raise the bar for what people expect.

So I am bad, gee thanks.

Remember that the next time you buy a chipset that is not supported.
I will look for a check in the mail from you to pay for the support
services.

> You still don't understand the diference between the 'free' and 'Free
> for Freedom'.

I understand that "FREE" does not pay the mortgage, pay for food, or pay
employees, or anything else.  So you think GPL is welfare for the
underclass, nice.

Regards,

Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[David Schwartz]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:13:52 -0700, Erik Andersen wrote:

>On Fri Jan 03, 2003 at 02:48:40PM +0000, Andrew Walrond wrote:

>>Oh. But I don't give you the source code to my game. Crikey - How are
>>going to debug it if it breaks??? Am I bad again ?

>You are comparing apples and oranges.  Software and hardware are
>fundamentally different.  Nobody can download a graphics card and
>email copies to 50 of their friends.

	Not today, but perhaps in a few dozen years. What can be done with FPGAs 
today is already pretty amazing.

>Your game (a piece of software) is the product.  For Nvidia,
>their card (a piece of hardware) is the product.  Nobody is
>suggesting Nvidia should give away all their hardware and chip
>designs and GPL them.  That would of course be ludicrous.

	The video card is not nVidia's entire product. The software that comes with 
it and the support they provide is also part of that product.

	The performance you get from the video card is the product. Just a new 
driver version can sometimes provide markedly improved performance. So nVidia 
is probably doing things in their driver that could also speed up other 
people's graphics cards.

>The only thing that is hoped for is that Nvidia might choose to
>release specs on their cards so folks can talk to their hardware.

	That's a more reasonable argument. I accept the possibility that nVidia's 
drivers  may contain huge amounts of investment that they don't want to let 
out to help their competition. Fine, keep the drivers closed source. Just 
tell us what the interfaces are and we'll make our own drivers. Maybe they're 
afraid ours will be better. ;)

	I guess they could possibly argue that the interfaces themselves are the 
result of large amounts of work that would significantly benefit their 
competitors. I don't know if that's really the case though.

>Sort of like how Intel and AMD and many other hardware companies
>releases specs on their chips so people can do whatever they want
>with them.  Where would Linux be if Intel had never released the
>specs for their i386 chip?  Has releasing the specs for their
>CPUs hit Intel?  Nope.  Because they have a boatload of patents
>and a boatload of lawyers.  Similarly, Nvidia also has a boatload
>of patents and a boatload of lawyers...  But thus far, they have
>not chosen to release specs.  Thats their choice.  But as a
>result of their choice, I choose to buy other hardware.

	By the way, I haven't given up on open source hardware. I think it can be 
done with today's technology and is only becoming more and more possible as 
technology improves.

	DS

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Larry McVoy]

> However, with a license like the GPL, every game has to be developed on a 
> proprietary base. You simply can't afford to put any money into an open 
> source base. So every game has to start back from square one, or the most 
> advanced proprietary base that can be found.

Back in the heyday of attention to open source, I spent hours and hours
and hours on the phone with Raymond trying to get the OSI to come up with
a "business source license" which would address some of these issues.
think there is a strong need for something like that, but the GPL
fanatics are desperate to paint the world as black or white and force
people into an entirely open or entirely closed choice.  The reason they
want to do this is that they know darn well that it is always the middle
of the road compromise which wins, and they don't want to compromise.
So we get these endless tirades about how the GPL is the One True Way
and anything else is Evil.

It was most unfortunate that I couldn't get anywhere with ESR.  If he and
the OSI had come up with some compromises, rather than just pandering to a
small but vocal group, I think that he would have cemented a significant
place in history.  I am positive that the world will eventually move in
directions where there is some sort of compromise, maybe something like
you get N years of closed use and then the old stuff has to be opened,
whatever.  The world already understands that you need to make money to
survive and the world is starting to understand that there is value in
having things be open.  
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	 lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitmover.com/lm 

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Marco Monteiro]

On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 16:16, David Schwartz wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Jan 2003 12:51:04 +0000, Andrew Walrond wrote:
> 
> >Yes but....
> 
> >I develop computer games. The last one I did took a team of 35 people 2
> >years and cost $X million to develop.
> 
> >Please explain how I could do this as free software, while still feeding
> >my people? Am I a bad person charging for my work?
> 
> >Really - I want to understand so I too can join this merry band of happy
> >people giving everything away for free!
> 
> 	You can't with the GPL, because it presents you with a "take it or leave it" 
> package deal. But you could with a different license.
> 
> 	What you do is you base your game off of whatever open source code gets you 
> the furthest. The game itself, of course, is closed source. After your first 
> few months of sales, you contribute some of the code you wrote back to the 
> open source community. 
> 
> 	Why shouldn't you? It hurts you not one bit and it's free publicity. Heck, 
> after a few year, maybe you open source the whole game.
> 
> 	The next person to write a game can start where you left off to some extent. 
> He can develop a better game for less money, and he can contribute more code 
> back to the community. Eventually, there may be enough code in the comnunity 
> to develop such complex games entirely open source.
> 
> 	However, with a license like the GPL, every game has to be developed on a 
> proprietary base. You simply can't afford to put any money into an open 
> source base. So every game has to start back from square one, or the most 
> advanced proprietary base that can be found.
> 
> 	Everybody loses except the person who makes the proprietary base or engine 
> you started with. I think working to make all software better and cheaper is 
> much more noble goal than working to arm twist other people into giving you 
> their code.
> 
> 	And the best part is, you can work to strengthen fair use, first sale, and 
> oppose the validity of shrink wrap licenses. You can argue for a narrower 
> definition of a derived work. In fact, you can at least *try* to win the 
> legal war.
> 
> 	DS
> 
> 

That is not right. The problem is that all people think that you can't
sell a game if it is Free Software. If the game is good you can. People
buy paintings and public domain classic music...
 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
-- 
Marco Monteiro

"All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed."
	--Sean O'Casey

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[David Schwartz]

On Fri, 03 Jan 2003 12:51:04 +0000, Andrew Walrond wrote:

>Yes but....

>I develop computer games. The last one I did took a team of 35 people 2
>years and cost $X million to develop.

>Please explain how I could do this as free software, while still feeding
>my people? Am I a bad person charging for my work?

>Really - I want to understand so I too can join this merry band of happy
>people giving everything away for free!

	You can't with the GPL, because it presents you with a "take it or leave it" 
package deal. But you could with a different license.

	What you do is you base your game off of whatever open source code gets you 
the furthest. The game itself, of course, is closed source. After your first 
few months of sales, you contribute some of the code you wrote back to the 
open source community. 

	Why shouldn't you? It hurts you not one bit and it's free publicity. Heck, 
after a few year, maybe you open source the whole game.

	The next person to write a game can start where you left off to some extent. 
He can develop a better game for less money, and he can contribute more code 
back to the community. Eventually, there may be enough code in the comnunity 
to develop such complex games entirely open source.

	However, with a license like the GPL, every game has to be developed on a 
proprietary base. You simply can't afford to put any money into an open 
source base. So every game has to start back from square one, or the most 
advanced proprietary base that can be found.

	Everybody loses except the person who makes the proprietary base or engine 
you started with. I think working to make all software better and cheaper is 
much more noble goal than working to arm twist other people into giving you 
their code.

	And the best part is, you can work to strengthen fair use, first sale, and 
oppose the validity of shrink wrap licenses. You can argue for a narrower 
definition of a derived work. In fact, you can at least *try* to win the 
legal war.

	DS

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Marco Monteiro]

On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 12:51, Andrew Walrond wrote:
> Yes but....
> 
> I develop computer games. The last one I did took a team of 35 people 2 
> years and cost $X million to develop.
> 
> Please explain how I could do this as free software, while still feeding 
> my people? Am I a bad person charging for my work?

No, not you. Bad is the people you work for: the code you write is not
yours.

I don't play games much. But I remember when I did; I know people who
do, now. I would say that around 95% of the games I see being played are
pirated. I know person who, without buying a single game have 500+ CDs
with games. I bought 12 games, until 4 or 5 years ago. Before buying, I
played each one of them: I liked the game and, naturally, I bought it,
to support the guys who made it.

If I see a Free Software game that I like and play, I will support the
producers. It is not because I don't have the software for free (as in
'free' bear) that I buy it; I can get any game for free (or for the
price of the CDs).

I believe that other ways of selling Free Software would be as much or
more profitable for those who make games. (But not for distributors, and
that is the problem, because they rule the market.) Of course I'm not
going to tell you what other ways there are, because then you would know
as much as I and I would lose that advantage. ;) And maybe these other
ways of selling Free Software could serve as a filter for crappy games,
which is good.

> Really - I want to understand so I too can join this merry band of happy 
> people giving everything away for free!
> 
> Andrew

You still don't understand the diference between the 'free' and 'Free
for Freedom'.

-- 
Marco Monteiro

"All the world's a stage and most of us are desperately unrehearsed."
	--Sean O'Casey

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Erik Andersen]

On Fri Jan 03, 2003 at 02:48:40PM +0000, Andrew Walrond wrote:
> Oh. But I don't give you the source code to my game. Crikey - How are 
> going to debug it if it breaks??? Am I bad again ?

You are comparing apples and oranges.  Software and hardware are
fundamentally different.  Nobody can download a graphics card and
email copies to 50 of their friends.

Your game (a piece of software) is the product.  For Nvidia,
their card (a piece of hardware) is the product.  Nobody is
suggesting Nvidia should give away all their hardware and chip
designs and GPL them.  That would of course be ludicrous.

The only thing that is hoped for is that Nvidia might choose to
release specs on their cards so folks can talk to their hardware.
Sortof like how Intel and AMD and many other hardware companies
releases specs on their chips so people can do whatever they want
with them.  Where would Linux be if Intel had never released the
specs for their i386 chip?  Has releasing the specs for their
CPUs hit Intel?  Nope.  Because they have a boatload of patents
and a boatload of lawyers.  Similarly, Nvidia also has a boatload
of patents and a boatload of lawyers...  But thus far, they have
not chosen to release specs.  Thats their choice.  But as a
result of their choice, I choose to buy other hardware.

 -Erik

--
Erik B. Andersen             http://codepoet-consulting.com/
--This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons--

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Randy.Dunlap]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Mike Galbraith wrote:

| At 08:06 PM 1/2/2003 -0800, Larry McVoy wrote:
| >On Thu, Jan 02, 2003 at 10:32:30PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
| > > But we could make do with even less cooperation than that.  If they
| > > just provide the necessary specs to a person who wants to extend the
| > > free drivers that exist, that would be sufficient.
| >
| >Yeah, if only the company that has invested millions in trying to scratch
| >out a place to stand, if only they would give us their intellectual
| >property for free, if only, why then we could steal that IP and give it
| >to other people.  And it would take us less time to do it if they would
| >only cooperate.  Why won't they cooperate?
| >
| >How dare they not give of the fruits of their labors for free.
|
| <yank>
| You're just saying that to justify your evil BK license ;-)
| </yank> (hey, somebody was _gonna_ do it)
|
| Seriously though, just what is it that graphic CPU makers are
| protecting?  I can't imagine "how to program our spiffy CPU'" docs exposing
| anything important to their competition.  Imagine Intel or AMD trying that
| tactic for _their_ next CPU.  What makes graphics CPUs so special?

Imagine them doing that for their current CPU.
That's what Nvidia is doing, isn't it?

At a LinuxWorld panel 2-3 years ago, Nicholas Petreley (sp?) chaired a
group discussion about this.  There were 2 competing sound chip
manufacturers represented, and they denied any interest in each other's
hardware.

However, if one of them was well-documented, then someone could
get info on their current product.  Well, that _could_
be a bad thing for company #2 and put company #2 on a road that was one
generation later than the first company was now designing/building.
So in one scenario it could end up as a negative for the "copying"
company.

-- 
~Randy

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

"NEURONET" <sz@neuronet.hu> writes:

>> im currently picking a solicitor, NVidia will either win or lose, if I lose, M$ win  > may soon be a lot like Linux.

>If you lose, you also create a precedent case 
>what REALLY offensive cases could make use of
>in the future.

>(I'd advise re-reading Antigone from Sophokles
>before starting your Holy Battle...)

Come on, "Hells.Surfer" might watch the video but he wouldn't even
understand half of the words used in that book. And he might even miss
the punch line. =%-)

	Regards
		Henning


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen       -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH     hps@intermeta.de

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof     Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Arjan van de Ven]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 483 bytes --]

On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 15:52, Paul Jakma wrote:


> Indeed, so why not add an exemption into the kernel's licence for 
> binary only modules that only use module exported interfaces? The 
> FSF's FAQ on the GPL even covers this.

unfortionatly that's impossible.
First of all *all* copyright holders of the kernel would need to agree
to it. Second, it would make it impossible for the kernel to just
incorporate other GPL code (like we do all the time, including FSF code)

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Paul Jakma]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Rik van Riel wrote:

> IMHO such freedom should leave the option of not having free drivers
> to companies like Nvidia.

Indeed, so why not add an exemption into the kernel's licence for 
binary only modules that only use module exported interfaces? The 
FSF's FAQ on the GPL even covers this.

that would remove the whole "is it a derived work?" grey area we're 
talking about.

> Have some faith in freedom, Richard...

good call.

but make it explicit in the kernel's licence.

> Rik

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	Sys Admin	Alphyra
	paulj@alphyra.ie
Warning: /never/ send email to spam@dishone.st or trap@dishone.st

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Paul Jakma]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Andrew Walrond wrote:

> Yes but....
> 
> I develop computer games. The last one I did took a team of 35 people 2 
> years and cost $X million to develop.
> 
> Please explain how I could do this as free software, while still feeding 
> my people? Am I a bad person charging for my work?

Absolutely not.

> Really - I want to understand so I too can join this merry band of
> happy people giving everything away for free!
> 
> Andrew

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	Sys Admin	Alphyra
	paulj@alphyra.ie
Warning: /never/ send email to spam@dishone.st or trap@dishone.st

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andrew Walrond]

Helge Hafting wrote:
> Andrew Walrond wrote:
> 
>>Am I a bad person charging for my work?
> 
> No.

Goodie!

> 
>>Really - I want to understand so I too can join this merry band of happy
>>people giving everything away for free!
>>
> 
> Nobody give everything away from free.  Free software, in particular,
> runs
> on boxes that cost money.  And people sell service and support.
> 

But I don't sell service, or support. I sell *software*
Am I bad again ?

> The problem with nvidia isn't that they charge money.  The problem
> is that their product comes with strange restrictions.  
> 

Ah - I see

> 
> The problems are:
> 1) The drivers are closed-source, so we can't fix the bugs.  (Yes,
>    there are bugs, and no, nvidia don't fix them immediately.  So
>    it'd be nice for us who understand C to fix this ourselves.
>    Releasing the code don't won't cost nvidia because they aren't
>    making money on it.  They might actually sell _more_ hardware
>    if they released the code.  So keeping it secret don't make sense
>    even from a extreme greediness viewpoint.  Such a driver can't
>    be made to work with a competing product either with a few tweaks.
> 

Oh. But I don't give you the source code to my game. Crikey - How are 
going to debug it if it breaks??? Am I bad again ?

> 2) Still, they _may_ have reasons not to release the code, perhaps
>    a patended algorithm or some such.  They could at least release the
>    specs for their card, so a free driver could be written from scratch.
>    But they don't do that either - strange.  Some manufacturers _do_
>    this, with no ill effects.  They get a slightly bigger market because
>    their equipment is ok with the free software world.  
> 

Gosh, they are naughty aren't they. But I can't release the source 
either, because little jonnie and his mates will all copy it and I'll go 
bust and I'll lose my house and my wife will leave me. Oh what a dilema! 
Am I a bad man ?


> This is very much like selling cars were the gas tank is locked, and
> you don't have the key.  The gas stations have keys, but only
> some of them.  So you can't fill anywhere.  
> Or a tv that don't work on thursdays. Silly in the extreme,
> annoying for the user and no benefit for the manufacturer.
> 
> Helge Hafting
> 

Thanks for explaining that.

I'm gonna hand myself in. I can hardly believe how bad I am. BAD Andrew. 
Bad bad bad!


[Tongue so firmly in cheek that it hurts ;) Sorry Helge - I know you 
mean well!]

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[John Alvord]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Helge Hafting wrote:

> Andrew Walrond wrote:
> > 
> > Yes but....
> > 
> > I develop computer games. The last one I did took a team of 35 people 2
> > years and cost $X million to develop.
> > 
> > Please explain how I could do this as free software, while still feeding
> > my people? 
> 
> > Am I a bad person charging for my work?
> No.
> > 
> > Really - I want to understand so I too can join this merry band of happy
> > people giving everything away for free!
> > 
> Nobody give everything away from free.  Free software, in particular,
> runs
> on boxes that cost money.  And people sell service and support.
> 
> The problem with nvidia isn't that they charge money.  The problem
> is that their product comes with strange restrictions.  
> 
> Everybody accepts that a nvidia cards cost money - chips and boards
> certainly aren't free.  They even provide drivers for their card
> for free.  They can trivially do this because they make their
> money on selling the hardware.
> 
> The problems are:
> 1) The drivers are closed-source, so we can't fix the bugs.  (Yes,
>    there are bugs, and no, nvidia don't fix them immediately.  So
>    it'd be nice for us who understand C to fix this ourselves.
>    Releasing the code don't won't cost nvidia because they aren't
>    making money on it.  They might actually sell _more_ hardware
>    if they released the code.  So keeping it secret don't make sense
>    even from a extreme greediness viewpoint.  Such a driver can't
>    be made to work with a competing product either with a few tweaks.
> 
> 2) Still, they _may_ have reasons not to release the code, perhaps
>    a patended algorithm or some such.  They could at least release the
>    specs for their card, so a free driver could be written from scratch.
>    But they don't do that either - strange.  Some manufacturers _do_
>    this, with no ill effects.  They get a slightly bigger market because
>    their equipment is ok with the free software world.  
Another possibility is that they used some propriatary software libraries
which have restrictions. Didn't someone see some strings which suggested
that?

> 
> This is very much like selling cars were the gas tank is locked, and
> you don't have the key.  The gas stations have keys, but only
> some of them.  So you can't fill anywhere.  
> Or a tv that don't work on thursdays. Silly in the extreme,
> annoying for the user and no benefit for the manufacturer.
> 
> Helge Hafting
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
> 

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Helge Hafting]

Andrew Walrond wrote:
> 
> Yes but....
> 
> I develop computer games. The last one I did took a team of 35 people 2
> years and cost $X million to develop.
> 
> Please explain how I could do this as free software, while still feeding
> my people? 

> Am I a bad person charging for my work?
No.
> 
> Really - I want to understand so I too can join this merry band of happy
> people giving everything away for free!
> 
Nobody give everything away from free.  Free software, in particular,
runs
on boxes that cost money.  And people sell service and support.

The problem with nvidia isn't that they charge money.  The problem
is that their product comes with strange restrictions.  

Everybody accepts that a nvidia cards cost money - chips and boards
certainly aren't free.  They even provide drivers for their card
for free.  They can trivially do this because they make their
money on selling the hardware.

The problems are:
1) The drivers are closed-source, so we can't fix the bugs.  (Yes,
   there are bugs, and no, nvidia don't fix them immediately.  So
   it'd be nice for us who understand C to fix this ourselves.
   Releasing the code don't won't cost nvidia because they aren't
   making money on it.  They might actually sell _more_ hardware
   if they released the code.  So keeping it secret don't make sense
   even from a extreme greediness viewpoint.  Such a driver can't
   be made to work with a competing product either with a few tweaks.

2) Still, they _may_ have reasons not to release the code, perhaps
   a patended algorithm or some such.  They could at least release the
   specs for their card, so a free driver could be written from scratch.
   But they don't do that either - strange.  Some manufacturers _do_
   this, with no ill effects.  They get a slightly bigger market because
   their equipment is ok with the free software world.  

This is very much like selling cars were the gas tank is locked, and
you don't have the key.  The gas stations have keys, but only
some of them.  So you can't fill anywhere.  
Or a tv that don't work on thursdays. Silly in the extreme,
annoying for the user and no benefit for the manufacturer.

Helge Hafting

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andrew Walrond]

Yes but....

I develop computer games. The last one I did took a team of 35 people 2 
years and cost $X million to develop.

Please explain how I could do this as free software, while still feeding 
my people? Am I a bad person charging for my work?

Really - I want to understand so I too can join this merry band of happy 
people giving everything away for free!

Andrew

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Marco Monteiro]

On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 05:12, Andre Hedrick wrote:
> On 3 Jan 2003, Marco Monteiro wrote:
> 
> > 
> > It won't work? Most of the software you use is Free Software. I don't
> > see anyone using Linux and not using Free software. I use only software
> > that is Free, and I'm not limited by doing it, in any sense. And it
> > won't work? It IS working.
> > 
> > And I don't buy NVIDIA hardware.
> 
> Excellent you exercise your freedom of choice.
> Now do not take away anyone elses and all is cool.
> What is so hard about that?

Nothing, indeed! But what is wrong about those who strive to make
software Free for all?

What Stallman and others do is to incentive people to make Free
Software. I ask you, here and now, "Please, make all software that you
write Free." What is wrong with this? I'm not taking away your freedom
with this request. Then I say "I won't use your software because it is
not Free.", and "Don't use software that is not Free." Again, what is
the problem? It is really a good thing. Without all the Free Software
there was and is, Linux would be a fraction of what is today. Without
the GNU system, I, for one, would surely not run Linux!

We must let people fight their battles. And the Free Software battle is
a noble one!

-- 
Marco Monteiro

"If I cannot share it then I will not install it.
If it requires me to mistreat others I would say no to it."
	--Richard Stallman

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[ZHAO Wei]

Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> The real issue about freedom is that people should be able to use
> parts of the GNU systems without having to add a GNU/ prefix to all
> their naming schemes.. :)

You have the freedom. 8)

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Christoph Hellwig]

On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 08:39:55AM -0200, Rik van Riel wrote:
> IMHO such freedom should leave the option of not having free
> drivers to companies like Nvidia.
> 
> Mind you that their freedom is more than compensated for by
> our freedom to decide to not buy their hardware and use hardware
> which does have free drivers instead.
> 
> Have some faith in freedom, Richard...

The real issue about freedom is that people should be able to use
parts of the GNU systems without having to add a GNU/ prefix to all
their naming schemes.. :)

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Rik van Riel]

On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Richard Stallman wrote:

> We developed the GNU system for the sake of freedom, and freedom is
> what really matters.

IMHO such freedom should leave the option of not having free
drivers to companies like Nvidia.

Mind you that their freedom is more than compensated for by
our freedom to decide to not buy their hardware and use hardware
which does have free drivers instead.

Have some faith in freedom, Richard...

Rik
-- 
Bravely reimplemented by the knights who say "NIH".
http://www.surriel.com/		http://guru.conectiva.com/
Current spamtrap:  <a href=mailto:"october@surriel.com">october@surriel.com</a>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[David S. Miller]

On Thu, 2003-01-02 at 21:00, Erik Andersen wrote:
> If they are worried their competitors might try to do the same
> nifty things with competing hardware, they should patent the
> methods used by their nifty 3D hardware.  And if you go take a
> look, Nvidia has done exactly that.

Hehe, maybe the issue is just that... other people's patents :-)

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Mielke]

On Thu, Jan 02, 2003 at 10:32:30PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> We developed the GNU system for the sake of freedom, and freedom is
> what really matters.  The GNU/Linux system today is important because
> it offers a road to freedom.  But it doesn't guarantee you will arrive
> ...

You don't seem to mind the fact that my freedom to use Linux would be
hampered if you successfully prove that closed source modules for
Linux are illegal.

If open source is so good, companies with closed source products will
change. Have some faith in your own set of ideals and stop trying to
jam it down other peoples' throats.

Here is another factor to consider. Copyrights and patents are all nice
and dandy, but unless you can make a court case that proves that you,
or the 'violated party' is *LOSING MONEY*, the case would likely be
thrown out of court. What money are you losing by nVidia using closed
source modules for their proprietary hardware? nVidia believes it is
protecting its own interests. You believe that they don't deserve this
right, and that any company that doesn't agree with you doesn't deserve
to use Linux.

I can see all the freedom in the air. It is overpowering.

mark

-- 
mark@mielke.cc/markm@ncf.ca/markm@nortelnetworks.com __________________________
.  .  _  ._  . .   .__    .  . ._. .__ .   . . .__  | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/    |_     |\/|  |  |_  |   |/  |_   | 
|  | | | | \ | \   |__ .  |  | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__  | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

  One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
                       and in the darkness bind them...

                           http://mark.mielke.cc/

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andre Hedrick]

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Brad Hards wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:04, Mike Galbraith wrote:
> > Seriously though, just what is it that graphic CPU makers are
> > protecting?  I can't imagine "how to program our spiffy CPU'" docs exposing
> > anything important to their competition.  Imagine Intel or AMD trying that
> > tactic for _their_ next CPU.  What makes graphics CPUs so special?
> 
> Giving away the technical detail probably shows where they are infringing 
> other people's patents.

You could not hit the core point of this issue any harder!
This is one of the reason I have to sign all those massive restrictive
NDA's in order to obtain the SPEC's to publish "FREE SOURCE", and
currently having to write off the expenses for the legalese to make sure I
do not get trapped.

If you get to close, you get tatooed with NDA's.

I can heat my house for the winter in a few years when the first round of
NDAs expire!

Cheers,

Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Brad Hards]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:04, Mike Galbraith wrote:
> Seriously though, just what is it that graphic CPU makers are
> protecting?  I can't imagine "how to program our spiffy CPU'" docs exposing
> anything important to their competition.  Imagine Intel or AMD trying that
> tactic for _their_ next CPU.  What makes graphics CPUs so special?
Giving away the technical detail probably shows where they are infringing 
other people's patents.

I _hate_ intellectual property.

Brad
- -- 
http://linux.conf.au. 22-25Jan2003. Perth, Aust. I'm registered. Are you?
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Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mike Galbraith]

At 08:06 PM 1/2/2003 -0800, Larry McVoy wrote:
>On Thu, Jan 02, 2003 at 10:32:30PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> > But we could make do with even less cooperation than that.  If they
> > just provide the necessary specs to a person who wants to extend the
> > free drivers that exist, that would be sufficient.
>
>Yeah, if only the company that has invested millions in trying to scratch
>out a place to stand, if only they would give us their intellectual
>property for free, if only, why then we could steal that IP and give it
>to other people.  And it would take us less time to do it if they would
>only cooperate.  Why won't they cooperate?
>
>How dare they not give of the fruits of their labors for free.

<yank>
You're just saying that to justify your evil BK license ;-)
</yank> (hey, somebody was _gonna_ do it)

Seriously though, just what is it that graphic CPU makers are 
protecting?  I can't imagine "how to program our spiffy CPU'" docs exposing 
anything important to their competition.  Imagine Intel or AMD trying that 
tactic for _their_ next CPU.  What makes graphics CPUs so special?

         -Mike

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Larry McVoy]

On Thu, Jan 02, 2003 at 10:00:42PM -0700, Erik Andersen wrote:
> On Thu Jan 02, 2003 at 08:06:12PM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 02, 2003 at 10:32:30PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> > > But we could make do with even less cooperation than that.  If they
> > > just provide the necessary specs to a person who wants to extend the
> > > free drivers that exist, that would be sufficient.  
> > 
> > Yeah, if only the company that has invested millions in trying to scratch
> > out a place to stand, if only they would give us their intellectual
> > property for free, if only, why then we could steal that IP and give it
> > to other people.  And it would take us less time to do it if they would
> > only cooperate.  Why won't they cooperate?
> > 
> > How dare they not give of the fruits of their labors for free.
> 
> Unless I am terribly mistaken, Nvidia is a _hardware_ company.
> Their IP is a piece of silicon, fans, connectors, and resistors
> that you go to the store and _buy_.  If you go visit pricewatch,
> it becomes immediately clear they are certainly not giving away
> their graphics cards for free.  No one (not even rms) would
> expect them to give away their hardware for free.  It takes money
> to design and produce such products, and they deserve a fair
> chance to make $$$ for their efforts.
> 
> If they are worried their competitors might try to do the same
> nifty things with competing hardware, they should patent the
> methods used by their nifty 3D hardware.  

It's virtually impossible to patent every aspect of a product, be it
software or hardware.  I'm well aware of the tradeoffs, and I know that
every company gambles to some extent.  You simply can't cover all the
bases, you don't really know in advance which of the cool ideas will
pay off.  Sometimes it's the bad ideas which pay off.

Given that patents don't cover everything, disclosing how your product
works is doing nothing except helping your competition.  If you don't
disclose, you buy time.  What you are suggesting is that Nvidia give up
that time.  In return for what?  Your whining?  Wow, that's inspiring.

<RANT>
I am REALLY REALLY fed up with all the armchair quarterbacks on this list.
If you all think you have it so figured out, then get off your ass and
go start a company.  Give out full access to all of your IP, give out
everything that you have been asking for, and make your company survive.
Oh, having a little trouble getting VC while you give away your IP?
Oh darn.  Don't forget to patent everything at $15K/patent.  What,
the VC people won't give you the money for that because you gave away
your IP.  Huh.  Guess that wasn't such a winning plan after all, was it.
Jeez, didn't make payroll this week either, did ya?  But it all sounded
so good when you were telling other people how to do it.  What went wrong?

It is oh-so-easy to sit around and say "this is what should be done".
Try being on the other end of that statement for a while and then 
tell us how it should be done.

Stop whining, start doing, and until you've done so, shut the f*ck up.
</RANT>

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	 lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitmover.com/lm 

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andre Hedrick]

On 3 Jan 2003, Marco Monteiro wrote:

> On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 04:06, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 02, 2003 at 10:32:30PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> > > But we could make do with even less cooperation than that.  If they
> > > just provide the necessary specs to a person who wants to extend the
> > > free drivers that exist, that would be sufficient.
> > 
> > Give it up, Stallman, we live in a capitalistic world.  The Russians
> > tried communism and it didn't work.  It won't work here either, the
> > kernel folks aren't that stupid.  Some people actually do learn from
> > history.
> 
> It won't work? Most of the software you use is Free Software. I don't
> see anyone using Linux and not using Free software. I use only software
> that is Free, and I'm not limited by doing it, in any sense. And it
> won't work? It IS working.
> 
> And I don't buy NVIDIA hardware.

Excellent you exercise your freedom of choice.
Now do not take away anyone elses and all is cool.
What is so hard about that?

Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Marco Monteiro]

On Fri, 2003-01-03 at 04:06, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 02, 2003 at 10:32:30PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> > But we could make do with even less cooperation than that.  If they
> > just provide the necessary specs to a person who wants to extend the
> > free drivers that exist, that would be sufficient.
> 
> Give it up, Stallman, we live in a capitalistic world.  The Russians
> tried communism and it didn't work.  It won't work here either, the
> kernel folks aren't that stupid.  Some people actually do learn from
> history.

It won't work? Most of the software you use is Free Software. I don't
see anyone using Linux and not using Free software. I use only software
that is Free, and I'm not limited by doing it, in any sense. And it
won't work? It IS working.

And I don't buy NVIDIA hardware.

-- 
Marco Monteiro

"You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you
spend too much time reading this sort of trash."
	--/.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Erik Andersen]

On Thu Jan 02, 2003 at 08:06:12PM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 02, 2003 at 10:32:30PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> > But we could make do with even less cooperation than that.  If they
> > just provide the necessary specs to a person who wants to extend the
> > free drivers that exist, that would be sufficient.  
> 
> Yeah, if only the company that has invested millions in trying to scratch
> out a place to stand, if only they would give us their intellectual
> property for free, if only, why then we could steal that IP and give it
> to other people.  And it would take us less time to do it if they would
> only cooperate.  Why won't they cooperate?
> 
> How dare they not give of the fruits of their labors for free.

Unless I am terribly mistaken, Nvidia is a _hardware_ company.
Their IP is a piece of silicon, fans, connectors, and resistors
that you go to the store and _buy_.  If you go visit pricewatch,
it becomes immediately clear they are certainly not giving away
their graphics cards for free.  No one (not even rms) would
expect them to give away their hardware for free.  It takes money
to design and produce such products, and they deserve a fair
chance to make $$$ for their efforts.

If they are worried their competitors might try to do the same
nifty things with competing hardware, they should patent the
methods used by their nifty 3D hardware.  And if you go take a
look, Nvidia has done exactly that.  They have a big pile of
patents protecting their hardware and 3D methods from being
ripped off.  I'll leave my usual rant on software and algorithm
patents for another day, but given their pile of patents, I
expect any driver specs and software they release would be
useless to anyone but those that have purchased the right to use
their IP (by buying one of their cards).  So how exactly do they
lose by giving out the details needed for proper drivers, or by
providing source under the GPL?

I can see your arguments above as perhaps relevant to a software
company (cough, BK, cough), but this is not relevant to a hardware
company like Nvidia.  Unless their hardware is just an expensive
placebo, and they really do _everything_ in software (dunno)?

 -Erik

--
Erik B. Andersen             http://codepoet-consulting.com/
--This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons--

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andre Hedrick]

On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Richard Stallman wrote:

>     I regularly use several kernel modules that provide a GPL component that
>     interfaces the module to the kernel, and a closed source object file that
>     is dynamically loaded as a kernel module at run time.
> 
>     If I did not have these modules, I would not be able to use Linux as my
>     host operating system.
> 
> Many enthusiasts the "Linux" operating system take the popularity of
> the system (or of the kernel, Linux) as the supreme goal; but why
> should the popularity of any one operating system or program be so
> important?  That isn't what really matters.

You forget a key aspect, the "GNU system Suite" needs a frame work to
function.

> We developed the GNU system for the sake of freedom, and freedom is
> what really matters.  The GNU/Linux system today is important because
> it offers a road to freedom.  But it doesn't guarantee you will arrive

Let people travel the road of choice, and not dictate they have to ride
a bobsled straight to HELL^W(your definition of freedom) with you pushing 
all the way down.

> there.  If you use non-free drivers, you go just part way along the
> road and never arrive at freedom.  That defeats the purpose.  To
> achieve freedom, we need to insist on free drivers (and free
> applications).

Your definition of FREEDOM STINKS!

FREEDOM == CHOICE !

If people want to use "non-free drivers", they choose to execute the
freedom to do so.  Now, what is clearly stated in your text is, FREEDOM
means the vendor of the "non-free drivers" has NONE!

If people want to have "free drivers" then contribute them.
What I see is a lot of people wait for new technology to be supported,
yet do nothing to enable the ones who have access and are willing to take
the risks of dealing with the vendors who are paranoid.

> If NVidia cooperates with us this much, we should certainly pick up

What if they decide to thumb the nose at you?
What if they decide to withdraw their drivers?

Is your ego of "my way or no way" or "it is my license, I dictate its use"
or .... fill in the blank, sigh ... never mind.

You bang a drum of fair use for everything else which does not have GPL
stamped and pounded into it.  Maybe you should allow a little fair use in
your world of the license.  Oh, I am dreaming and so now to the rant!

> the ball from there, and I am sure we will manage to go the rest of
> the way.  But don't bet on 2 weeks.  Softare always takes twice as
> long as you expect ;-).  If it takes a whole month month to be able to
> use NVidia hardware in freedom, I won't complain about the delay.

<RANT RANT DOUBLE_RANT>

Execise your CHOICE and FREEDOM is yours.

FREEDOM to pick and use hardware which is not natively supported.
FREEDOM to use protocols which are not support.
FREEDOM to use drivers which do the task you desire.

or enjoy your CAPTIVITY with a loss of CHOICE.

CAPTIVITY, well there is the FREEDOM to use what is supported open.
CAPTIVITY, well this is not supported, no options available.
CAPTIVITY, no drivers capable, we suffer down time to wait for a
	sucker^Whacker^Wcodepoet^Wwhatever will slave for us.

</RANT /RANT /DOUBLE_RANT>

> But we could make do with even less cooperation than that.  If they
> just provide the necessary specs to a person who wants to extend the
> free drivers that exist, that would be sufficient.  It might take more
> than 4 weeks to write the code, but surely not more than a few months.

Gee, it has taken 12 years to get to where we are now.
Is everything today which is in the kernel "fully functional" ?

Come on Richard, this is not your "printer".
It is something of beauty wrappered with a tarbaby in front of a briar
patch.  Ease up with the sticky fingered tarbaby, the briar patch is
enough of a boundary.

Next go pick and use words out of BLACK's LAW.
You risk it all with out drawing crisp clear lines.
All it takes is for one loss in court and the fear of legal action is
history.  The court battle may not fall in a circuit which is friendly to
your choice of words in the license.


Regards,

Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Larry McVoy]

On Thu, Jan 02, 2003 at 10:32:30PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> But we could make do with even less cooperation than that.  If they
> just provide the necessary specs to a person who wants to extend the
> free drivers that exist, that would be sufficient.  

Yeah, if only the company that has invested millions in trying to scratch
out a place to stand, if only they would give us their intellectual
property for free, if only, why then we could steal that IP and give it
to other people.  And it would take us less time to do it if they would
only cooperate.  Why won't they cooperate?

How dare they not give of the fruits of their labors for free.

Give it up, Stallman, we live in a capitalistic world.  The Russians
tried communism and it didn't work.  It won't work here either, the
kernel folks aren't that stupid.  Some people actually do learn from
history.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	 lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitmover.com/lm 

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Richard Stallman]

    I regularly use several kernel modules that provide a GPL component that
    interfaces the module to the kernel, and a closed source object file that
    is dynamically loaded as a kernel module at run time.

    If I did not have these modules, I would not be able to use Linux as my
    host operating system.

Many enthusiasts the "Linux" operating system take the popularity of
the system (or of the kernel, Linux) as the supreme goal; but why
should the popularity of any one operating system or program be so
important?  That isn't what really matters.

We developed the GNU system for the sake of freedom, and freedom is
what really matters.  The GNU/Linux system today is important because
it offers a road to freedom.  But it doesn't guarantee you will arrive
there.  If you use non-free drivers, you go just part way along the
road and never arrive at freedom.  That defeats the purpose.  To
achieve freedom, we need to insist on free drivers (and free
applications).

Erik Andersen <andersen@codepoet.org> wrote:

    If nvidia provided non-functional GPL
    source code with all the proprietary 3rd party bits ripped out, 
    I would expect a hoard of developers would jump at the chance to
    fixup the non-functional mess, clean it up, reimplement all the
    missing proprietary bits.  I'd bet you $20 US we could have a
    functional driver within 2 weeks.

If NVidia cooperates with us this much, we should certainly pick up
the ball from there, and I am sure we will manage to go the rest of
the way.  But don't bet on 2 weeks.  Softare always takes twice as
long as you expect ;-).  If it takes a whole month month to be able to
use NVidia hardware in freedom, I won't complain about the delay.

But we could make do with even less cooperation than that.  If they
just provide the necessary specs to a person who wants to extend the
free drivers that exist, that would be sufficient.  It might take more
than 4 weeks to write the code, but surely not more than a few months.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[David Schwartz]

>How are the standard interfaces not covered by the GPL?

	Surely you aren't arguing that someone can copyright

int open(const char *, int);

	Are you?

	There's the battle and there's the war. The GPL is the battle. If you argue 
that any code that goes anywhere near anyone else's code is a derived work, 
you may win the battle by buttressing the GPL, but you will lose the war.

	The open source community wasn't the first to use  'int open(const char *, 
int)'. If you want to argue that this is an interface that can be 
copyrighted, then we're all screwed.

	Defending fair use and first sale type doctrines and rejecting shrink wrap 
agreements is far more important than defending the GPL.

	Using someone else's header file to develop code is *use*, not distribution. 
That's what header files are for -- that's how you *use* them, by including 
them. If someone wants to substitute more stringent restrictions, then they 
can do that by contract.

	DS

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Hell.Surfers]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 208 bytes --]

not in the us, in the uk, i have nothing to lose.

Dean McEwan, If the drugs don't work, [sarcasm] take more...[/sarcasm].

On 	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 12:33:22 -0500 (EST) 	Gerhard Mack <gmack@innerfire.net> wrote:

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3566 bytes --]

From: Gerhard Mack <gmack@innerfire.net>
To: Milosz Tanski <mtanski@wideopenwest.com>
Cc: Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net, <billh@gnuppy.monkey.org>, <paul@clubi.ie>, <riel@conectiva.com.br>, <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 12:33:22 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0301021222240.2244-100000@innerfire.net>

Hes trolling... these sorts of things are such a muddy mess in the US that
it's a coin toss whether any lawsuit will win.

He should stop talking about it and just do it and in the meantime
us would be better off just black holing his email.  I doubt hes going to
go through with it and I question how much money someone who has to get
his internet access off a TV settop box really has enough money to pay for
the planned lawsuit anyhow.

Can we all stop feeding the trolls now?

Gerhard

cat >> ~/.procmailrc << _END_
:0 W
* ^X-Mailing-List.*linux-kernel@vger\.kernel\.org
* ^(((From):)|( )).*Hell.Surfers@cwctv\.net
/dev/null

_END_


On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Milosz Tanski wrote:

> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 02:06:44 -0500
> From: Milosz Tanski <mtanski@wideopenwest.com>
> To:	Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net.billh@gnuppy.monkey.org, paul@clubi.ie,
>    riel@conectiva.com.br, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, rms@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source
>     drivers?
>
> Well, i dunno how i got drawed into to (well i do). Your right, but i'm
> just trying to find a usefull solution for me having to download and
> shift though a ~500kb discussion leading noware (drawing my conclusion
> from the past here). I don't think Hell.Surfers is going to accomplish
> anything here, besides angering a whole bunch of people (am i right?).
> Sooner or later, some one is going to come up with the idea of
> --attempting to-- banning him from the mailing list (just like RMS
> before), and thats again accompilished nothing. And damn it, i'd love to
> have opensource (or freesoftware, whatever the politicaly correct thing
> is :) ) nvidia drivers, so i could attempt to fix the Twin view
> flakinies, have the nvidia drivers use the kernel nvidia fb, and have
> dual head console, etc.
>

--
Gerhard Mack

gmack@innerfire.net

<>< As a computer I find your faith in technology amusing.

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To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
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Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Gerhard Mack]

Hes trolling... these sorts of things are such a muddy mess in the US that
it's a coin toss whether any lawsuit will win.

He should stop talking about it and just do it and in the meantime
us would be better off just black holing his email.  I doubt hes going to
go through with it and I question how much money someone who has to get
his internet access off a TV settop box really has enough money to pay for
the planned lawsuit anyhow.

Can we all stop feeding the trolls now?

Gerhard

cat >> ~/.procmailrc << _END_
:0 W
* ^X-Mailing-List.*linux-kernel@vger\.kernel\.org
* ^(((From):)|( )).*Hell.Surfers@cwctv\.net
/dev/null

_END_


On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Milosz Tanski wrote:

> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 02:06:44 -0500
> From: Milosz Tanski <mtanski@wideopenwest.com>
> To:	Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net.billh@gnuppy.monkey.org, paul@clubi.ie,
>    riel@conectiva.com.br, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, rms@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source
>     drivers?
>
> Well, i dunno how i got drawed into to (well i do). Your right, but i'm
> just trying to find a usefull solution for me having to download and
> shift though a ~500kb discussion leading noware (drawing my conclusion
> from the past here). I don't think Hell.Surfers is going to accomplish
> anything here, besides angering a whole bunch of people (am i right?).
> Sooner or later, some one is going to come up with the idea of
> --attempting to-- banning him from the mailing list (just like RMS
> before), and thats again accompilished nothing. And damn it, i'd love to
> have opensource (or freesoftware, whatever the politicaly correct thing
> is :) ) nvidia drivers, so i could attempt to fix the Twin view
> flakinies, have the nvidia drivers use the kernel nvidia fb, and have
> dual head console, etc.
>

--
Gerhard Mack

gmack@innerfire.net

<>< As a computer I find your faith in technology amusing.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Jos Hulzink]

On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, Rik van Riel wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, Mark Rutherford wrote:
>
> > I would LOVE to see Nvidia open source,
> > We cannot force our ideas on a company, all they will do is turn and walk away.
> > We can show them our way, if they like it, good. if not, we tried.
>
> Nvidia is a smart company, otherwise they wouldn't be in
> business today.  I'm sure they'll switch to the GPL only
> once it will be in their advantage to do so and no sooner.
>
> When would it be an advantage for them ?
>
> The moment there is a GPL graphics library (at the right
> system level, of course) that's so good Nvidia won't be
> able to resist using that library could be such a moment.
>
> A new project for Hell.Surfers ? ;)

Mr Surfers has already showed up at the KGI development team, but as I
think his attitude doesn't quite fit in the team, I have not encouraged
him to help.

But yes, there is a GPL graphics kernel module / library (KGI & GGI) that
should run on linux and any BSD real soon now. The Radeon and Matrox
drivers are in place, already. The 3D accelleration framework is in place,
but the GGI GL implementation is not yet existing.

For those who want to take a look: the website (www.kgi-project.org) is
outdated, we lost contact with the maintainer :( Please take a look at the
kgi-wip project at sourceforge (CVS only) and at irc.openprojects.net #kgi

Jos

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

Erik Andersen <andersen@codepoet.org> writes:

>Ahh, but replicated effort is something that open source people
>do very well at indeed.  If nvidia provided non-functional GPL
>source code with all the proprietary 3rd party bits ripped out, 
>I would expect a hoard of developers would jump at the chance to
>fixup the non-functional mess, clean it up, reimplement all the
>missing proprietary bits.  I'd bet you $20 US we could have a
>functional driver within 2 weeks.  And have a high quality driver
>roughly equal to their proprietary one within 6 months.  Thats
>the way things work around these parts of the net.  I bought a

Ahhh, yes. I know. Replace "nvidia" with "netscape" and "driver" with
"browser" and reread your paragraph. I remember having read exactly
the same thing when netscape told us that they will "open the source
to the navigator".

And where were we six months later?

	Regards
		Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen       -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH     hps@intermeta.de

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof     Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Milosz Tanski]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 948 bytes --]

On Wed, 1 Jan 2003 23:56:03 -0700
Erik Andersen <andersen@codepoet.org> wrote:
>> bla bla bla

Well, i dunno how i got drawed into to (well i do). Your right, but i'm
just trying to find a usefull solution for me having to download and
shift though a ~500kb discussion leading noware (drawing my conclusion
from the past here). I don't think Hell.Surfers is going to accomplish
anything here, besides angering a whole bunch of people (am i right?).
Sooner or later, some one is going to come up with the idea of
--attempting to-- banning him from the mailing list (just like RMS
before), and thats again accompilished nothing. And damn it, i'd love to
have opensource (or freesoftware, whatever the politicaly correct thing
is :) ) nvidia drivers, so i could attempt to fix the Twin view
flakinies, have the nvidia drivers use the kernel nvidia fb, and have
dual head console, etc.

P.S: I hope this isn't a double, since the last email was no go.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Milosz Tanski]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 787 bytes --]

Well, i dunno how i got drawed into to (well i do). Your right, but i'm
just trying to find a usefull solution for me having to download and
shift though a ~500kb discussion leading noware (drawing my conclusion
from the past here). I don't think Hell.Surfers is going to accomplish
anything here, besides angering a whole bunch of people (am i right?).
Sooner or later, some one is going to come up with the idea of
--attempting to-- banning him from the mailing list (just like RMS
before), and thats again accompilished nothing. And damn it, i'd love to
have opensource (or freesoftware, whatever the politicaly correct thing
is :) ) nvidia drivers, so i could attempt to fix the Twin view
flakinies, have the nvidia drivers use the kernel nvidia fb, and have
dual head console, etc.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Erik Andersen]

On Thu Jan 02, 2003 at 06:48:33AM +0000, Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:
> I say we start a driver based on the UTAHs. MR. Anderson had 
> a good schedule :), knock knock neo... ;-))

And I live in Utah.  ;-) Seriously though, that schedule would
only be feasible given enough human resources -- and given either
source code or proper docs for their chipsets, which relies on
Nvidia playing nice and kindly choosing to share.

Relying on guesswork and/or reverse engineering without proper
vendor cooperation, which is exactly the case with the Utah GLX
driver, it'll take a much longer time and will likely not attract
the same amount of human resources as a result.

 -Erik

--
Erik B. Andersen             http://codepoet-consulting.com/
--This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons--

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Hell.Surfers]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 260 bytes --]

I say we start a driver based on the UTAHs. MR. Anderson had a good schedule :), knock knock neo... ;-))

Dean McEwan, If the drugs don't work, [sarcasm] take more...[/sarcasm].

On 	Wed, 1 Jan 2003 23:12:33 -0700 	Erik Andersen <andersen@codepoet.org> wrote:

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3539 bytes --]

From: Erik Andersen <andersen@codepoet.org>
To: Bill Huey <billh@gnuppy.monkey.org>
Cc: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie>, Rik van Riel <riel@conectiva.com.br>, Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, rms@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 23:12:33 -0700
Message-ID: <20030102061233.GA20916@codepoet.org>

On Wed Jan 01, 2003 at 05:37:36PM -0800, Bill Huey wrote:
> Obviously a GPL rewrite of this would entail a lot of replicated effort
> and would also depend on things that are incomplete, non-existent and
> don't have a lot direct interest from the GPL community. 3D isn't a hot
> commodity in Linux, FreeBSD unlike with dedicated SGI machines (although
> faded).

Ahh, but replicated effort is something that open source people
do very well at indeed.  If nvidia provided non-functional GPL
source code with all the proprietary 3rd party bits ripped out, 
I would expect a hoard of developers would jump at the chance to
fixup the non-functional mess, clean it up, reimplement all the
missing proprietary bits.  I'd bet you $20 US we could have a
functional driver within 2 weeks.  And have a high quality driver
roughly equal to their proprietary one within 6 months.  Thats
the way things work around these parts of the net.  I bought a
copy of Quake when they GPLd their code to show support.  I
similarly bought a copy of Quake II after they GPLd their code.
If Nvidia released their code under the GPL, I'd buy one of their
cards.  As is, I'm sticking with my ATI card...

 -Erik

--
Erik B. Andersen             http://codepoet-consulting.com/
--This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons--
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Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Bill Huey]

On Wed, Jan 01, 2003 at 11:12:33PM -0700, Erik Andersen wrote:
> missing proprietary bits.  I'd bet you $20 US we could have a
> functional driver within 2 weeks.  And have a high quality driver
> roughly equal to their proprietary one within 6 months.  Thats

That's being too idealistic, IMO. And hearing somebody like me
say that, well...uh...;)

> the way things work around these parts of the net.  I bought a
> copy of Quake when they GPLd their code to show support.  I
> similarly bought a copy of Quake II after they GPLd their code.
> If Nvidia released their code under the GPL, I'd buy one of their
> cards.  As is, I'm sticking with my ATI card...

I think folks have to identify if the company is doing this
intentionally to hold into something irrationally or just because
of legal reasons. If it's just legal reasons, then i'll give them
slack.

bill

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Mielke]

GPL aside (it could be argued forever...):

I regularly use several kernel modules that provide a GPL component that
interfaces the module to the kernel, and a closed source object file that
is dynamically loaded as a kernel module at run time.

If I did not have these modules, I would not be able to use Linux as my
host operating system.

So... to those (Hell.Surfers especially it seems) who believe that they
are doing good by making a scene... realize that while you may succeed
in improving the integrity of the GPL, you will also succeed in convincing
companies that it may be more expensive than it is worth to provide their
hardware or software for Linux. That may mean that I will be forced to
stop using Linux at work, and possibly forced to stop using Linux at home.

Perhaps I am a minority. Are you willing to bet the future of Linux on it?

mark

-- 
mark@mielke.cc/markm@ncf.ca/markm@nortelnetworks.com __________________________
.  .  _  ._  . .   .__    .  . ._. .__ .   . . .__  | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/    |_     |\/|  |  |_  |   |/  |_   | 
|  | | | | \ | \   |__ .  |  | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__  | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

  One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
                       and in the darkness bind them...

                           http://mark.mielke.cc/

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Erik Andersen]

On Wed Jan 01, 2003 at 05:37:36PM -0800, Bill Huey wrote:
> Obviously a GPL rewrite of this would entail a lot of replicated effort
> and would also depend on things that are incomplete, non-existent and
> don't have a lot direct interest from the GPL community. 3D isn't a hot
> commodity in Linux, FreeBSD unlike with dedicated SGI machines (although
> faded).

Ahh, but replicated effort is something that open source people
do very well at indeed.  If nvidia provided non-functional GPL
source code with all the proprietary 3rd party bits ripped out, 
I would expect a hoard of developers would jump at the chance to
fixup the non-functional mess, clean it up, reimplement all the
missing proprietary bits.  I'd bet you $20 US we could have a
functional driver within 2 weeks.  And have a high quality driver
roughly equal to their proprietary one within 6 months.  Thats
the way things work around these parts of the net.  I bought a
copy of Quake when they GPLd their code to show support.  I
similarly bought a copy of Quake II after they GPLd their code.
If Nvidia released their code under the GPL, I'd buy one of their
cards.  As is, I'm sticking with my ATI card...

 -Erik

--
Erik B. Andersen             http://codepoet-consulting.com/
--This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons--

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Bill Huey]

On Thu, Jan 02, 2003 at 02:57:48AM +0000, Paul Jakma wrote:
> yes, but the legalities of it are rather grey.

It didn't seem that bad to me, it was all pretty abstracted outside of
their code. The glue layer to their object file is GPLed and therefore
public so that should be fine from what I can see.

> indeed, and if that were the only issue it would be clear there is no 
> issue. however, it must make use of linux code at runtime through 
> function calls - as linux makes use of the NVidia proprietary code by 
> calling the functions it provides.

Like what ? PCI IO poking functions ? Things that do mmap() trickery ?
That's pretty freaking basic. There wasn't anything terribly invasive
about the driver and source that I saw.

> Sometimes one has a choice between drivers written by the vendor and
> drivers written by (non-expert???) "community" authors, and often one
> finds the vendor driver is the one that isn't terribly optimised.

But this is computationally critical 3D. I mean, what kind of 3D vendor
would intentionally let something like that slide on x86 platforms ?

> > Matrix multiplies, T&L, etc...
> 
> none of this stuff is done in kernel (least it shouldnt be). Its done 
> in user-space libraries.

That stuff is done in hardware these days, not software. I mean, how would
anybody know what they're using. Why replicate that volume of functionality
when it already works well.

It simply doesn't make sense. I'm sure when decent AGP/DRM support is in
place they can start removing that stuff out of the Linux binary and
then make more of that publically available.

There motivations where to simply protect themselve by not releasing
proprietary code.

> The XFree licence allows binary only modules, indeed XFree 4 was 
> designed to make distribution of (possibly binary) modules as easy as 
> possible.
> 
> There isnt that much magic the NVidia kernel modules ought to be 
> doing really.

Notification of event completion from the (just guessing) who knows what
opcode operations the chip is doing, fast draw context switching, who knows.
These things are starting to look like FPU coprocessors, circa 1990, these
days.

Different hardware has differing needs. If it's pretty freaking exotic, then
let it to those folks handle it and the glue layer to userspace. It's not
like folks in GPL community write entire 3D frameworks for this casually.

High performance 3D is a Linux priority at this time. No real games or
heavy 3D apps that use crazy chips stuff...

> > communication between user and kernel space that provides this to
> > the OpenGL libraries are all exotic. I'm glad that nobody has to
> > deal with this stuff directly and that a vendor is willing to
> > provide support for it.
> 
> aha.. yes, all that complicated hardware stuff - you dont really want 
> those linux kernel amatuers writing that.

Well, having a generic kernel person, regardless of who they are, messing
with 3d chips and interfacing it with their OpenGL libs isn't a light topic.
This crap is heavy. So yes, its a good thing they've done this. What the
hell do you think this is ? an Ethernet driver ?

bill

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Paul Jakma]

On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, Bill Huey wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 02, 2003 at 12:31:13AM +0000, Paul Jakma wrote:

> > subsystem, the VFS, etc.. These systems are rather large bodies of
> > code - without which the NVidia kernel driver could not work.
> 
> Well, no, look at the "nm" dump of the object file. It's got a lot of
> proprietary code 

indeed. that doesnt change the fact that this large body of NVidia
specific code still must make use of large parts of linux code
(through function calls).

> It's a very practical solution to do it this way.

yes, but the legalities of it are rather grey.

> > How are the standard interfaces not covered by the GPL? 
> 
> All I saw where kernel header files include in the sources, nothing
> more. 

indeed, and if that were the only issue it would be clear there is no 
issue. however, it must make use of linux code at runtime through 
function calls - as linux makes use of the NVidia proprietary code by 
calling the functions it provides.

> I'd rather have the experts do it at NVidia, than a half completed
> open source implementation that isn't terribly optimized.

I run systems that use many GPL and fully open drivers that are quite
well optimised. Some of these drivers were written by the vendor's
"experts" and are distributed seperately - still GPL though.  
Sometimes one has a choice between drivers written by the vendor and
drivers written by (non-expert???) "community" authors, and often one
finds the vendor driver is the one that isn't terribly optimised.

> Matrix multiplies, T&L, etc...

none of this stuff is done in kernel (least it shouldnt be). Its done 
in user-space libraries.

The XFree licence allows binary only modules, indeed XFree 4 was 
designed to make distribution of (possibly binary) modules as easy as 
possible.

There isnt that much magic the NVidia kernel modules ought to be 
doing really.

> communication between user and kernel space that provides this to
> the OpenGL libraries are all exotic. I'm glad that nobody has to
> deal with this stuff directly and that a vendor is willing to
> provide support for it.

aha.. yes, all that complicated hardware stuff - you dont really want 
those linux kernel amatuers writing that.

> bill

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	paul@clubi.ie	paul@jakma.org	Key ID: 64A2FF6A
	warning: do not ever send email to spam@dishone.st
Fortune:
The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Alan Cox]

On Thu, 2003-01-02 at 00:31, Paul Jakma wrote:
> So I am not quite sure on what basis one could argue the NVidia 
> driver is not a derivative work, and hence it seems to me the NVidia 
> driver is technically in material breach of GPL.

I would assume Nvidia's view is based on US caselaw on what constitutes
a 'derived work'. The boundaries of copyright are not set by the GPL
authors

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Paul Jakma]

On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, David Lang wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Paul Jakma wrote:

> > further, the kernel's licence explicitely exempts the 'normal system
> > calls', and kernel headers describing these can quite arguably be
> > considered to fall within this exemption.
> 
> this is exactly the reasoning that nvidia uses to justify their use of the
> headers.

a kernel module does not make of use of the calls the exemption refers
to. it calls exported /kernel/ functions.

> you can't have it both ways.
> 
> David Lang

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	Sys Admin	Alphyra
	paulj@alphyra.ie
Warning: /never/ send email to spam@dishone.st or trap@dishone.st

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Bill Huey]

On Thu, Jan 02, 2003 at 12:31:13AM +0000, Paul Jakma wrote:
> The NVidia shim makes use of several kernel subsystems, the PCI
> device layer, the VM, the module system (well really, the kernel
> makes of use of the functions the module provides :) ), IRQ
> subsystem, the VFS, etc.. These systems are rather large bodies of
> code - without which the NVidia kernel driver could not work.

Well, no, look at the "nm" dump of the object file. It's got a lot of
proprietary code that came from what looks like commerical libraries
that they don't own. Back when they wrote the original drive, the GPL
equivalents of DRM, AGP, etc... sucked so they had to write their own
stuff just to get anything basic working.

> driver is not a derivative work, and hence it seems to me the NVidia 
> driver is technically in material breach of GPL.

Their portability layer wraps the low level calls into their own
terminology and portability API. It's fairly outside of the linux kernel
itself, internally the object file looks very Win32ish.

Obviously a GPL rewrite of this would entail a lot of replicated effort
and would also depend on things that are incomplete, non-existent and
don't have a lot direct interest from the GPL community. 3D isn't a hot
commodity in Linux, FreeBSD unlike with dedicated SGI machines (although
faded).

It's a very practical solution to do it this way.

> So I am not quite sure on what basis one could argue the NVidia 
> 
> You seem to be basing your opinion on:
> 
>  "the nvidia driver uses only the standard interfaces to hook into
>  the Linux kernel"
> 
> How are the standard interfaces not covered by the GPL? 

All I saw where kernel header files include in the sources, nothing
more. They have to support multipule architecture and OSes so keeping
this stuff outside of the driver is a good thing. The GPL-ly stuff is
publically available as source files.
 
> I know Linus' has often posted to l-k that he doesnt care about
> binary only modules as long as they stick to the exported interfaces.  
> However, are all the kernel developers agreed on this? And if so, can
> this exception be formalised and put into the COPYING file? If not, 
> then is NVidia not in breach of the kernel's licence?

I'd rather have the experts do it at NVidia, than a half completed open
source implementation that isn't terribly optimized.

Matrix multiplies, T&L, etc... communication between user and kernel
space that provides this to the OpenGL libraries are all exotic. I'm glad
that nobody has to deal with this stuff directly and that a vendor is
willing to provide support for it.

bill

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Paul Jakma]

On 2 Jan 2003, Alan Cox wrote:

> I would assume Nvidia's view is based on US caselaw on what
> constitutes a 'derived work'. The boundaries of copyright are not
> set by the GPL authors

indeed, and apparently its not at all a black-and-white area. to that
end, i'll point to the following thread:

	http://www.mail-archive.com/license-discuss@opensource.org/msg05725.html

and the paper it links to, "derived software defined" (no idea whether 
its accurate):

	http://www.pbwt.com/Attorney/files/ravicher_1.pdf

and as IANAL, i'll shut up now.

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	Sys Admin	Alphyra
	paulj@alphyra.ie
Warning: /never/ send email to spam@dishone.st or trap@dishone.st

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Paul Jakma]

On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, David Lang wrote:

> well libc uses the kernel headers and basicly all userspace programs
> use libc so that makes oracle a derivitive work of the kernel??????

libc neednt neccessarily use the kernel headers, it needs to use only 
headers that are compatible. Also, though it might use kernel headers, 
the headers it provides for other programmes to be compiled against it 
are not kernel headers.

further, the kernel's licence explicitely exempts the 'normal system 
calls', and kernel headers describing these can quite arguably be 
considered to fall within this exemption.

> luckly that's not how things actually work.

unfortunately, its not at all clear.

> David Lang

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	Sys Admin	Alphyra
	paulj@alphyra.ie
Warning: /never/ send email to spam@dishone.st or trap@dishone.st

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[David Lang]

On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Paul Jakma wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, David Lang wrote:
>
> > well libc uses the kernel headers and basicly all userspace programs
> > use libc so that makes oracle a derivitive work of the kernel??????
>
> libc neednt neccessarily use the kernel headers, it needs to use only
> headers that are compatible. Also, though it might use kernel headers,
> the headers it provides for other programmes to be compiled against it
> are not kernel headers.
>
> further, the kernel's licence explicitely exempts the 'normal system
> calls', and kernel headers describing these can quite arguably be
> considered to fall within this exemption.

this is exactly the reasoning that nvidia uses to justify their use of the
headers.

you can't have it both ways.

David Lang

> > luckly that's not how things actually work.
>
> unfortunately, its not at all clear.
>
> > David Lang
>
> regards,
> --
> Paul Jakma	Sys Admin	Alphyra
> 	paulj@alphyra.ie
> Warning: /never/ send email to spam@dishone.st or trap@dishone.st
>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[David Lang]

well libc uses the kernel headers and basicly all userspace programs use
libc so that makes oracle a derivitive work of the kernel??????

luckly that's not how things actually work.

David Lang

On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Paul Jakma wrote:

> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 00:31:13 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie>
> To: Rik van Riel <riel@conectiva.com.br>
> Cc: Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, rms@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source
>     drivers?
>
> On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, Rik van Riel wrote:
>
> > Copyright law is pretty explicit about the situations the GPL
> > applies to.  If something can be reasonably considered to be a
> > "derivative work" of a GPL work, the GPL applies and the new work
> > needs to be GPL.
>
> and:
>
> > but only a song.  If nvidia's driver only uses some simple
> > declarations from include files and no large (>7 lines? >10lines?
> > what's large?) inline functions AND the nvidia driver uses only the
> > standard interfaces to hook into the Linux kernel, then it's not a
> > derivative work and nvidia gets to choose the license.
>
> It has long been held that linking to GPL code is suffient to
> consitute 'derived work' status, hence the existence of the LGPL.
>
> The NVidia shim makes use of several kernel subsystems, the PCI
> device layer, the VM, the module system (well really, the kernel
> makes of use of the functions the module provides :) ), IRQ
> subsystem, the VFS, etc.. These systems are rather large bodies of
> code - without which the NVidia kernel driver could not work.
>
> So I am not quite sure on what basis one could argue the NVidia
> driver is not a derivative work, and hence it seems to me the NVidia
> driver is technically in material breach of GPL.
>
> You seem to be basing your opinion on:
>
>  "the nvidia driver uses only the standard interfaces to hook into
>  the Linux kernel"
>
> How are the standard interfaces not covered by the GPL?
>
> I know Linus' has often posted to l-k that he doesnt care about
> binary only modules as long as they stick to the exported interfaces.
> However, are all the kernel developers agreed on this? And if so, can
> this exception be formalised and put into the COPYING file? If not,
> then is NVidia not in breach of the kernel's licence?
>
> > Rik
>
> regards,
> --
> Paul Jakma	paul@clubi.ie	paul@jakma.org	Key ID: 64A2FF6A
> 	warning: do not ever send email to spam@dishone.st
> Fortune:
> Programmers do it bit by bit.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Paul Jakma]

On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, Rik van Riel wrote:

> Copyright law is pretty explicit about the situations the GPL
> applies to.  If something can be reasonably considered to be a
> "derivative work" of a GPL work, the GPL applies and the new work
> needs to be GPL.

and:

> but only a song.  If nvidia's driver only uses some simple
> declarations from include files and no large (>7 lines? >10lines?
> what's large?) inline functions AND the nvidia driver uses only the
> standard interfaces to hook into the Linux kernel, then it's not a
> derivative work and nvidia gets to choose the license.

It has long been held that linking to GPL code is suffient to 
consitute 'derived work' status, hence the existence of the LGPL.

The NVidia shim makes use of several kernel subsystems, the PCI
device layer, the VM, the module system (well really, the kernel
makes of use of the functions the module provides :) ), IRQ
subsystem, the VFS, etc.. These systems are rather large bodies of
code - without which the NVidia kernel driver could not work.

So I am not quite sure on what basis one could argue the NVidia 
driver is not a derivative work, and hence it seems to me the NVidia 
driver is technically in material breach of GPL.

You seem to be basing your opinion on:

 "the nvidia driver uses only the standard interfaces to hook into
 the Linux kernel"

How are the standard interfaces not covered by the GPL? 

I know Linus' has often posted to l-k that he doesnt care about
binary only modules as long as they stick to the exported interfaces.  
However, are all the kernel developers agreed on this? And if so, can
this exception be formalised and put into the COPYING file? If not, 
then is NVidia not in breach of the kernel's licence?

> Rik

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	paul@clubi.ie	paul@jakma.org	Key ID: 64A2FF6A
	warning: do not ever send email to spam@dishone.st
Fortune:
Programmers do it bit by bit.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Rik van Riel]

On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, Mark Rutherford wrote:

> I would LOVE to see Nvidia open source,
> We cannot force our ideas on a company, all they will do is turn and walk away.
> We can show them our way, if they like it, good. if not, we tried.

Nvidia is a smart company, otherwise they wouldn't be in
business today.  I'm sure they'll switch to the GPL only
once it will be in their advantage to do so and no sooner.

When would it be an advantage for them ?

The moment there is a GPL graphics library (at the right
system level, of course) that's so good Nvidia won't be
able to resist using that library could be such a moment.

A new project for Hell.Surfers ? ;)

regards,

Rik
-- 
Bravely reimplemented by the knights who say "NIH".
http://www.surriel.com/		http://guru.conectiva.com/
Current spamtrap:  <a href=mailto:"october@surriel.com">october@surriel.com</a>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Måns Rullgård]

Paul Jakma <paulj@alphyra.ie> writes:

> PS: do you think Linux PPC or Alpha users are happy that NVidia
> provide drivers?

Being an Alpha user, I can assure you that for me nvidia's drivers are
worth nothing.  Even if they did work, I would want the complete specs
for the chip.  There's usually something you can do with them.

-- 
Måns Rullgård
mru@users.sf.net

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Måns Rullgård]

John Bradford <john@grabjohn.com> writes:

> > Alpha works around this by using an X86 emulator in their PAL code.
> 
> That's interesting, I didn't know that.  How complete is it?  Does it
> just emulate a subset of X86 instructions that are enough for 90% of
> initialisation code?

AFAIK it only emulates 16-bit real mode, which is what the bios code
is.  I've never seen a card that failed to work because of this.

-- 
Måns Rullgård
mru@users.sf.net

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Rik van Riel]

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:

> Why does the community continue to make pacts with a company that steals
> from its rivals, makes pacts with M$, and refuses to clearly GPL and

Ohhhh, a conspiracy theory.  I like conspiracy theories.
Do tell, what exactly is the conspiracy here and who are
the parties involved ?

> open source its work on drivers, there is a clear difference between
> their use of GPL files, and what the GPL says they can do. You cannot
> expect embedded kernel developers to GPL, if you excuse Nvidia, its a
> vain hope to grab M$ users, but in the long run it destroys the
> community.

Copyright law is pretty explicit about the situations the GPL
applies to.  If something can be reasonably considered to be
a "derivative work" of a GPL work, the GPL applies and the
new work needs to be GPL.

However, if the new work is NOT a derivative of a GPL work,
the author of that new work gets to choose the license freely.

The border gets determined by inclusion of a copyrightable
piece of GPL code.  Really small fragments of code and simple
defines aren't copyrightable, just like you can't copyright a
single musical note, but only a song.  If nvidia's driver only
uses some simple declarations from include files and no large
(>7 lines? >10lines? what's large?) inline functions AND the
nvidia driver uses only the standard interfaces to hook into the
Linux kernel, then it's not a derivative work and nvidia gets
to choose the license.

Feel free to get upset or eat your boots at any time you want,
it's not going to change copyright law.

cheers,

Rik
-- 
Bravely reimplemented by the knights who say "NIH".
http://www.surriel.com/		http://guru.conectiva.com/
Current spamtrap:  <a href=mailto:"october@surriel.com">october@surriel.com</a>

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Rutherford]

OK....
I have a suggestion..
We all concede (with the exception of a few) that Nvidia did nothing wrong with
including headers in their driver.
I dont think they did...
I use their product, and it works well for me.
I would LOVE to see Nvidia open source, but that might just drive a nail in the
right place for them.. and they go under.
We cannot force our ideas on a company, all they will do is turn and walk away.
We can show them our way, if they like it, good. if not, we tried.
I think we have tried, and I think Nvidia is well aware of our way here.
Now, on to the suggestion!

lets let this thread die. its been argued before, over and over.
please?





Andre Hedrick wrote:

> Hell.Surfers,
>
> On Wed, 1 Jan 2003 Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:
>
> > You must understand the GNU/LINUX community is being manipulated by NVidia.
>
>    NVIDIA Corporate Office:
>    2701 San Tomas Expressway
>    Santa Clara, CA 95050
>    Tel: 408-486-2000
>    Fax: 408-486-2200
>    info@nvidia.com
>    Directions to Corporate Office
>
> > Dean. Three ways to kill yourself, and ive been drove in one...
>
> GO FOR IT!
>
> I will love to see the fall out.
>
> Regards,
>
> Andre Hedrick
> LAD Storage Consulting Group
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

--
Regards,
Mark Rutherford
mark@justirc.net

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[jw schultz]

On Tue, Dec 31, 2002 at 11:21:43PM -0800, Andre Hedrick wrote:
> 
> Tyketto !!!!
> 
> AMEN !!!!
> 
> Andre Hedrick
> LAD Storage Consulting Group
> 
> 
> On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:
> 
> >         First off, could you please your MUA to use 80 columns? having to 
> > manually put in carriage returns to read your mail gets rather tedious...
> > 

We've already done the rounds on his choice of low-priority
emailer regarding long lines (no <enter> key; yet somehow he
can start a new paragraph) and broken threads.  He said
earlier in the (broken by him) thread that these messages
of his aren't worth paying for bandwidth.

I'm not a big fan of kill-files but...

        :0
        * ^X-Mailer: Liberate TVMail 
        /dev/null



-- 
________________________________________________________________
	J.W. Schultz            Pegasystems Technologies
	email address:		jw@pegasys.ws

		Remember Cernan and Schmitt

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Ed Sweetman]

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 01, 2003 at 03:13:00AM +0000, Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:
> 
>>no Nvidias drivers arent like coal because coal is useful for fires, what 
>>happens when Nvidia decide those cards are too old? But just new enough 
>>to not show the competition their code, Nvidia are a drain on the community 
>>with nothing useful to show for it.
>>
>>Dean. Three ways to kill yourself, and ive been drove in one...
>>
> 
> 
>         Then why complain about it? Don't buy NVidia cards! if you don't like 
> what they're doing with the code and the drivers, don't buy or use their 
> product. Simple as that. There's always ATI, SiS, and many other cards with 
> fully GPL coded drivers for it. Just because one may think that NVidia is the 
> best card out on the market, doesn't mean (unfortunately) they have to 
> accomodate every OS that uses it, and do it the same way that every other 
> company does. You have a choice, but also, so do they.
> 
>         I have an SiS 315E card in my box, and it works great, and haven't 
> looked at any other card since installing it.
> 
>                                                         BL.
Note: "you" is everyone complaining about nvidia not gpl'ing their drivers.

Gotta agree with that.  You get along much better in life not believing 
you deserve this and that. Nobody owes you driver support because they 
make hardware. And bullying companies to do so makes you no better than 
they are when they bully other companies out of business, buy them out 
and use their advanced ideas in their crappy products.


Apparently nvidia is the graphics leader because people dont know how to 
  write accelerated graphics code for nvidia chipsets. And apparently it 
has little to do with engineering the card and chips and manufacturing 
those pieces and assembling them.  And apparently they're better 
protected by software laws from someone stealing their hard work and 
making products without having to spend R&D on it than laws on copying 
various hardware patents and such.

going to a company and telling them they have to agree with your beliefs 
is a quick way to get absolutely nothing.  Nvidia has survived before 
linux became the big deal on wallstreet and news. They can survive quite 
  well with windows users alone.  They dont need linux user support.  So 
how is trying to boycott nvidia products up in anger and sending angry 
emails going to help you get what you want? You dont have the market 
power needed to make that work. It just makes companies see linux as a 
bunch of spoiled brats complaining when they dont get what they want and 
throwing a tantrum.

We allow certain binary-only modules in the linux kernel.  That has been 
  long established and it's the end of the story.  This is brought up 
like every year and it ends the same way. You dont like what nvidia does 
then dont buy their stuff, but going around and trying to tell other 
people to do so is counterproductive and foolish. We dont have the 
leverage and pretending you do makes every step closer we were to 
gaining support inside nvidia turn into a step backwards.  Why should 
they give their drivers away gpl?  What is the gain in that? Show them 
the gain and hope they come around.

What are their motives in not going gpl? has anyone asked them that? 
People assume it's out of security for their product but there is no 
precident for them to be worried about that and it sounds silly.

If you are bothered by the license the drivers you use are under then 
why did you buy nvidia in the first place?  I always buy my hardware 
based on linux support.  If i had hardware that wasn't well supported or 
needed special binary modules i'd trade it with a friend or sell it on 
ebay and get something that didn't.  With a new nvidia card you cant go 
saying you're too poor to get anything else.  So you get a piece of 
hardware that you know is not supported by gpl drivers well and then 
complain about it?

There is always the old way of reverse engineering the hardware and 
continuing the gpl nvidia driver support.  It's much harder but it's 
still done. The need for gpl support must not be that high to get people 
motivated to dive into that mess yet so I dont see much motivation on 
nvidia's side to change how they do things.

ok. dead horse 0   people 1.  no doubt a rematch will proceed.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Erik Andersen]

On Wed Jan 01, 2003 at 03:13:00AM +0000, Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:
> no Nvidias drivers arent like coal because coal is useful for fires, 

Nvidia cards are also quite useful for fires.  Just take 
off the heat sink.  ;-)

 -Erik

--
Erik B. Andersen             http://codepoet-consulting.com/
--This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons--

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[A Guy Called Tyketto]

On Wed, Jan 01, 2003 at 03:13:00AM +0000, Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:
> no Nvidias drivers arent like coal because coal is useful for fires, what 
> happens when Nvidia decide those cards are too old? But just new enough 
> to not show the competition their code, Nvidia are a drain on the community 
> with nothing useful to show for it.
> 
> Dean. Three ways to kill yourself, and ive been drove in one...
> 

        Then why complain about it? Don't buy NVidia cards! if you don't like 
what they're doing with the code and the drivers, don't buy or use their 
product. Simple as that. There's always ATI, SiS, and many other cards with 
fully GPL coded drivers for it. Just because one may think that NVidia is the 
best card out on the market, doesn't mean (unfortunately) they have to 
accomodate every OS that uses it, and do it the same way that every other 
company does. You have a choice, but also, so do they.

        I have an SiS 315E card in my box, and it works great, and haven't 
looked at any other card since installing it.

                                                        BL.
-- 
Brad Littlejohn                         | Email:        tyketto@wizard.com
Unix Systems Administrator,             |           tyketto@ozemail.com.au
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! :)   |   http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
  PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569  F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Hell.Surfers]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 412 bytes --]

no Nvidias drivers arent like coal because coal is useful for fires, what happens when Nvidia decide those cards are too old? But just new enough to not show the competition their code, Nvidia are a drain on the community with nothing useful to show for it.

Dean. Three ways to kill yourself, and ive been drove in one...

On 	Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:05:35 -0500 	"Scott Robert Ladd" <scott@coyotegulch.com> wrote:

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3487 bytes --]

From: "Scott Robert Ladd" <scott@coyotegulch.com>
To: "Paul Jakma" <paulj@alphyra.ie>, "Mark Rutherford" <mark@justirc.net>
Cc: <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:05:35 -0500
Message-ID: <FKEAJLBKJCGBDJJIPJLJAEPFDOAA.scott@coyotegulch.com>

Paul Jakma wrote
> "what you get for christmas?"
>
> "a lump of coal"
>
> at least you get /something/. however, you didnt get what counts,
> programming info for the card.

I, and many other Linux users, do not consider nVidia's drivers to be "a
lump of coal." What "counts" is being able to use my hardware effectively.
Closed-source drivers may not be ideal, but few things in life are.

Even the conservative Debian distribution (which I use) has the nVidia
drivers available in the distribution.

In order of preference (for me):

1) High-quality drivers with open source
2) High-quality drivers with closed source
3) Poor-quality drivers with open source
4) Poor-quality drivers with closed source

Out of four possibilities, we're getting the next-to-best thing. Certainly,
I'd *like* to have the specs for nVidia's cards -- but given competition
between nVidia and ATI, I don't see that happening. One advantage nVidia has
(small as it may be) is high-quality drivers for Linux; it's one reason my
Linux systems have TNT2 and GeForce 4 cards installed.

Note that my Windows boxes run ATI cards; I'm not an nVidia shill.

One of Linux's historical weaknesses (when compared to the competition) is
video support. While I urge nVidia to open their specifications (and in the
end think it would be in their best interest), I'm also very pleased that
they provide high-performance drivers for free (as in beer).

...Scott

--
Scott Robert Ladd
Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com)
Professional programming for science and engineering;
Interesting and unusual bits of very free code.

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Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[David Schwartz]

>Recall the kernel is capable of rejecting non-gpl binary modules; yet it
>does not!  Regardless of the original intent or scope of the "tainting
>process", it created more grey than clarity.

	Nothing would stop someone from distributing a kernel that did not reject 
those drivers. The GPL doesn't permit you to add additional restrictions to 
it, so you can't add a clause prohibiting such distribution.

>Now until the kernel forcable rejects loading binary closed source
>modules, it defaults to quietly approved of the concept regardless what
>you think, feel, or care.

	There would just be a set of patches to bypass that rejection. Every major 
distribution would distribute kernels with those patches. You can't GPL code 
and at the same time control how it is used.

	As I argued in my previous post, it would be suicidal for any advocate of 
open source to attempt to broaden the scope of what constitutes a 'derived 
work' or narrow the scope of fair use or first sale type doctrines.

	Hey, we're almost back on topic for this list. Happy new year.

	DS

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[David Schwartz]

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:03:14 -0500 (EST), Bill Davidsen wrote:
>On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, David Schwartz wrote:

>>II don't expect anyone to GPL unless they think they get more benefit 
>>from
>>GPLing than the potential harm done. People GPL code because they want to
>>'donate' it to improve the open source movement, community, and code base.
>>Attempting to arm twist such donations is worse than foolish. You think the
>>open source community should be a bunch of bullies? Convince people open
>>source is best, and avoid them if they don't agree.

>Certainly anyone who has had a problem, posted an oops, and been told that
>no one will even look at a dump from a system with the nvidia driver might
>think they were being bullied...

	There's a difference between people thinking they are being bullied and 
being a bunch of bullies. ;)

	I would hope that the situation would be explained politely -- kind of like 
this:  "Unfortunately, with closed-source software, only someone who has the 
source code can debug it. If you can replicate the problem without any 
closed-source drivers, we'll do our best to help you. But if you can only 
replicate the problem with a closed-source module installed, odds are the 
problem is in that module, and even if it wasn't, we couldn't track it down."

	That doesn't really seem like bullying and helps to clarify the 
disadvantages of using closed-source software.

	DS

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Ralf Hildebrandt]

* Dan Egli <dan@shortcircuit.dyndns.org>:

Thanks for the fullquote

> I don't think there is a person on this listt that would not prefer to 
> have the source to the nVidia drivers. I know I would. However, I also 
> know that releasing the complete spec to their GPU would be suicide 
> because, as has been pointed out earlier, ATI could get ahold of the 
> information and use it to exploit any weakness in nVidia's GPU.  Plus 
> they could start to incorporate nVidia's instructions into THEIR GPUs 
> and boom. ATI releases a card that has all of their features, plus does 
> 99.5% of what an nVidia card does also. Responce from the computer 

If ATI's so keen on having that data, they would be reverse
engineering nvidia's drivers.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt (Im Auftrag des Referat V a)   Ralf.Hildebrandt@charite.de
Charite Campus Mitte                            Tel.  +49 (0)30-450 570-155
Referat V a - Kommunikationsnetze -             Fax.  +49 (0)30-450 570-916
Why you can't find your system administrators:
(S)he's off round the building trying to find who has tured off which router, or have they just unplugged our link to the outside world. --Ian (God they both happened in one week) Dobbie ian@muscle.kcl.ac.uk

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Dan Egli]

Roberto Peon wrote:

>Yea, I'm happy I can use my NVidia hardware with linux-x86, however I have no chance of adding render-to-texture support or various other extensions that would make MY life a heck of a lot easier in the longrun. Note that all of those WGL extensions are NOT supported under linux, and somehow, the seem pretty dang important.
>
>On that note, NVidia hasn't done -nothing- as I've heard some people suggest. They havn't even done nothing for the open source community. 
>
>They've made their hardware run on many/most current versions of linux-x86. This encourages more end-user class people with NVidia hardware to use linux. Depending on who you are and what your goals are (i.e. world domination?) this may be a good thing for the community.
>
>I really hate it when people have a knee-jerk reaction to providing binary-only support one way or the other.
>
>There are obvious disadvantages to a binary-only driver/distribution, however you shouldn't overlook that the fact that it works it all is important too! (And yea, I'd like to have the source open too, That should be apparant from my first paragraph)
>
>
>
>-Roberto JP
>robertopeon@sportvision.com
>
>
>---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>From: Mark Rutherford <mark@justirc.net>
>Date: 	Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:49:49 -0500
>
>  
>
>>I doubt this would 'destroy the community'...
>>Do I like it? Nope.
>>But here is the way I look at it...
>>Nvidia provides the driver, and it works. it means I can use their cards in
>>Linux.
>>the Linux drivers, are in my opinion far more superior than the Window$
>>drivers.
>>After all, you do get the kernel module source code....
>>Another thing you must realise is that these companies want to stay in
>>buisness and
>>just the fact that Nvidia has a linux driver probably torques m$ off as it is
>>they do not want to upset this company, lets face it, they are barbaric and
>>they are cabable of
>>bringing hardware makers to their knees if they wanted to.
>>They even have a *BSD driver now....
>>I like Nvidia, because they provide me with a driver that I can use, and it
>>works.
>>I also recall reading that they have code in their driver(s) that belongs to a
>>third party, making it
>>hard to release the source to the driver without upsetting the third party.
>>perhaps one day, they will be able to.
>>I dont think we should fault them, at least they give us something, we need to
>>focus on the companies that
>>give us NOTHING.
>>
>>end of rant :)
>>
>>
>>
>>Andre Hedrick wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Why does the community continue to make pacts with a company that
>>>>steals from its rivals, makes pacts with M$, and refuses to clearly GPL
>>>>and open source its work on drivers, there is a clear difference between
>>>>their use of GPL files, and what the GPL says they can do. You cannot
>>>>expect embedded kernel developers to GPL, if you excuse Nvidia, its a
>>>>vain hope to grab M$ users, but in the long run it destroys the
>>>>community.
>>>>
>>>>Dean. Three ways to kill yourself, and ive been drove in one...
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Well let's see:
>>>
>>>You have no money to hire lawyers.
>>>You whine about an issue, that people with lawyers will roast you alive.
>>>
>>>Are you a customer of Nvidia?
>>>If you are not, you have no legal ground to invoke GPL PERIOD!
>>>If you are a customer, check to see that they have a GPL/GNU wrapper which
>>>is open source and attachs a clean LGPL library object, iirc.
>>>
>>>Since, there is still a legal and valid LGPL regardless of what FSF has to
>>>say, there are revisions of GPL which permit various usages.  Now there
>>>are people like yourself who, again have no money, have no lawyers, have
>>>a whine, and whimpers over issues that stretch beyond the general scope.
>>>
>>>Recall the kernel is capable of rejecting non-gpl binary modules; yet it
>>>does not!  Regardless of the original intent or scope of the "tainting
>>>process", it created more grey than clarity.
>>>
>>>Now until the kernel forcable rejects loading binary closed source
>>>modules, it defaults to quietly approved of the concept regardless what
>>>you think, feel, or care.
>>>
>>>Now what is not clear?
>>>
>>>If the kernel forces vendors to choose between closed source support or
>>>loose the competive edge in their market space, enjoy hunting for the old
>>>dusty video cards from the past.  You just limited the scope of hardware
>>>which will run on Linux with any usability.
>>>
>>>Now given the kernel is now so well mixed between people in the past,
>>>current, and dead developers (sigh Leonard Z :-(( ), how are you going to
>>>hurd all togather to agree on a single point?
>>>
>>>So you submitted a patch, whippty flip ... neither you or I control the
>>>license of the kernel.  If Linus does not like the content of a patch or a
>>>file generated, well it is toast.  Also where does it state a patch is
>>>defined as "GPL patch"?
>>>
>>>Think a little harder first, cause I and many others will be on the side
>>>of slapping down your arguements about preventing binary modules from
>>>being loaded.  Key point! "LOADED" not "LINKED".  For the meatballs who
>>>think that dumping /proc/kcore is an effective way of generating a newly
>>>linked file, remember you created the file, not the owners of the module.
>>>
>>>Prove you can boot a cat /proc/kcore > vmlinux and you have now linked a
>>>closed source object with an open source kernel.  Using your logic from
>>>above, you are now the offending person to GPL.  You committed the act of
>>>linking the two permanetly.
>>>
>>>Time for bed, ranting is over ...
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>
>>>Andre Hedrick
>>>LAD Storage Consulting Group
>>>
>>>-
>>>To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
>>>the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>>>More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>>>Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>>>      
>>>
>>--
>>Regards,
>>Mark Rutherford
>>mark@justirc.net
>>
>>
>>-
>>To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
>>the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>>More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>>Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>>
>>    
>>
>-
>To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
>the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>  
>
<lurk mode off>
<Soap Box On>
I don't think there is a person on this listt that would not prefer to 
have the source to the nVidia drivers. I know I would. However, I also 
know that releasing the complete spec to their GPU would be suicide 
because, as has been pointed out earlier, ATI could get ahold of the 
information and use it to exploit any weakness in nVidia's GPU.  Plus 
they could start to incorporate nVidia's instructions into THEIR GPUs 
and boom. ATI releases a card that has all of their features, plus does 
99.5% of what an nVidia card does also. Responce from the computer 
community: Why buy a nVidia card when ATI's cards do the same thing and 
more. Result: nVidia folds and goes out of business.  Not a favorable 
result IMHO. Would I like to see the code to the driver? YES. Do I 
consider it a major slap in the face that I cannot see it? Absolutely 
NOT. nVidia's drivers, while closed source, do work VERY well. I use 
nVidia cards in all my machines (except one machine that is soo old it 
doesn't have an AGP port, so I use an old Matrox Millenium in that box). 
I'm an open source advocate. I like seeing things open source. But I 
also realise that this is not a realistic goal for many companies in the 
current state of the world.
<Soap Box Off>
<lurk mode on>

--- Dan

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Roberto Peon]

Yea, I'm happy I can use my NVidia hardware with linux-x86, however I have no chance of adding render-to-texture support or various other extensions that would make MY life a heck of a lot easier in the longrun. Note that all of those WGL extensions are NOT supported under linux, and somehow, the seem pretty dang important.

On that note, NVidia hasn't done -nothing- as I've heard some people suggest. They havn't even done nothing for the open source community. 

They've made their hardware run on many/most current versions of linux-x86. This encourages more end-user class people with NVidia hardware to use linux. Depending on who you are and what your goals are (i.e. world domination?) this may be a good thing for the community.

I really hate it when people have a knee-jerk reaction to providing binary-only support one way or the other.

There are obvious disadvantages to a binary-only driver/distribution, however you shouldn't overlook that the fact that it works it all is important too! (And yea, I'd like to have the source open too, That should be apparant from my first paragraph)



-Roberto JP
robertopeon@sportvision.com


---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Mark Rutherford <mark@justirc.net>
Date: 	Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:49:49 -0500

>I doubt this would 'destroy the community'...
>Do I like it? Nope.
>But here is the way I look at it...
>Nvidia provides the driver, and it works. it means I can use their cards in
>Linux.
>the Linux drivers, are in my opinion far more superior than the Window$
>drivers.
>After all, you do get the kernel module source code....
>Another thing you must realise is that these companies want to stay in
>buisness and
>just the fact that Nvidia has a linux driver probably torques m$ off as it is
>they do not want to upset this company, lets face it, they are barbaric and
>they are cabable of
>bringing hardware makers to their knees if they wanted to.
>They even have a *BSD driver now....
>I like Nvidia, because they provide me with a driver that I can use, and it
>works.
>I also recall reading that they have code in their driver(s) that belongs to a
>third party, making it
>hard to release the source to the driver without upsetting the third party.
>perhaps one day, they will be able to.
>I dont think we should fault them, at least they give us something, we need to
>focus on the companies that
>give us NOTHING.
>
>end of rant :)
>
>
>
>Andre Hedrick wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:
>>
>> > Why does the community continue to make pacts with a company that
>> > steals from its rivals, makes pacts with M$, and refuses to clearly GPL
>> > and open source its work on drivers, there is a clear difference between
>> > their use of GPL files, and what the GPL says they can do. You cannot
>> > expect embedded kernel developers to GPL, if you excuse Nvidia, its a
>> > vain hope to grab M$ users, but in the long run it destroys the
>> > community.
>> >
>> > Dean. Three ways to kill yourself, and ive been drove in one...
>>
>> Well let's see:
>>
>> You have no money to hire lawyers.
>> You whine about an issue, that people with lawyers will roast you alive.
>>
>> Are you a customer of Nvidia?
>> If you are not, you have no legal ground to invoke GPL PERIOD!
>> If you are a customer, check to see that they have a GPL/GNU wrapper which
>> is open source and attachs a clean LGPL library object, iirc.
>>
>> Since, there is still a legal and valid LGPL regardless of what FSF has to
>> say, there are revisions of GPL which permit various usages.  Now there
>> are people like yourself who, again have no money, have no lawyers, have
>> a whine, and whimpers over issues that stretch beyond the general scope.
>>
>> Recall the kernel is capable of rejecting non-gpl binary modules; yet it
>> does not!  Regardless of the original intent or scope of the "tainting
>> process", it created more grey than clarity.
>>
>> Now until the kernel forcable rejects loading binary closed source
>> modules, it defaults to quietly approved of the concept regardless what
>> you think, feel, or care.
>>
>> Now what is not clear?
>>
>> If the kernel forces vendors to choose between closed source support or
>> loose the competive edge in their market space, enjoy hunting for the old
>> dusty video cards from the past.  You just limited the scope of hardware
>> which will run on Linux with any usability.
>>
>> Now given the kernel is now so well mixed between people in the past,
>> current, and dead developers (sigh Leonard Z :-(( ), how are you going to
>> hurd all togather to agree on a single point?
>>
>> So you submitted a patch, whippty flip ... neither you or I control the
>> license of the kernel.  If Linus does not like the content of a patch or a
>> file generated, well it is toast.  Also where does it state a patch is
>> defined as "GPL patch"?
>>
>> Think a little harder first, cause I and many others will be on the side
>> of slapping down your arguements about preventing binary modules from
>> being loaded.  Key point! "LOADED" not "LINKED".  For the meatballs who
>> think that dumping /proc/kcore is an effective way of generating a newly
>> linked file, remember you created the file, not the owners of the module.
>>
>> Prove you can boot a cat /proc/kcore > vmlinux and you have now linked a
>> closed source object with an open source kernel.  Using your logic from
>> above, you are now the offending person to GPL.  You committed the act of
>> linking the two permanetly.
>>
>> Time for bed, ranting is over ...
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Andre Hedrick
>> LAD Storage Consulting Group
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
>> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>
>--
>Regards,
>Mark Rutherford
>mark@justirc.net
>
>
>-
>To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
>the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>

RE: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Scott Robert Ladd]

Paul Jakma wrote
> "what you get for christmas?"
>
> "a lump of coal"
>
> at least you get /something/. however, you didnt get what counts,
> programming info for the card.

I, and many other Linux users, do not consider nVidia's drivers to be "a
lump of coal." What "counts" is being able to use my hardware effectively.
Closed-source drivers may not be ideal, but few things in life are.

Even the conservative Debian distribution (which I use) has the nVidia
drivers available in the distribution.

In order of preference (for me):

1) High-quality drivers with open source
2) High-quality drivers with closed source
3) Poor-quality drivers with open source
4) Poor-quality drivers with closed source

Out of four possibilities, we're getting the next-to-best thing. Certainly,
I'd *like* to have the specs for nVidia's cards -- but given competition
between nVidia and ATI, I don't see that happening. One advantage nVidia has
(small as it may be) is high-quality drivers for Linux; it's one reason my
Linux systems have TNT2 and GeForce 4 cards installed.

Note that my Windows boxes run ATI cards; I'm not an nVidia shill.

One of Linux's historical weaknesses (when compared to the competition) is
video support. While I urge nVidia to open their specifications (and in the
end think it would be in their best interest), I'm also very pleased that
they provide high-performance drivers for free (as in beer).

..Scott

--
Scott Robert Ladd
Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com)
Professional programming for science and engineering;
Interesting and unusual bits of very free code.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Paul Jakma]

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, Mark Rutherford wrote:

> well, change 'us' to 'Linux users'
> why? well we can use our expensive hardware.

"what you get for christmas?"

"a lump of coal"

at least you get /something/. however, you didnt get what counts,
programming info for the card.

PS: do you think Linux PPC or Alpha users are happy that NVidia
provide drivers?

> to some, thats all that matters.
> personally, I would like to see the code :)

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	Sys Admin	Alphyra
	paulj@alphyra.ie
Warning: /never/ send email to spam@dishone.st or trap@dishone.st

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Rutherford]

Paul Jakma wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, Mark Rutherford wrote:
>
> > the Linux drivers, are in my opinion far more superior than the Window$
> > drivers.
> > After all, you do get the kernel module source code....
>
> No you do not.
>
> You get source to the code that shims a big binary object file into
> whatever kernel you compile against.

I stand corrected here... (silence)

>
>
> > I dont think we should fault them, at least they give us something,
> > we need to focus on the companies that give us NOTHING.
>
> they havnt given us anything.

well, change 'us' to 'Linux users'
why? well we can use our expensive hardware.
to some, thats all that matters.
personally, I would like to see the code :)

>
> > end of rant :)
>
> regards,
> --
> Paul Jakma      Sys Admin       Alphyra
>         paulj@alphyra.ie
> Warning: /never/ send email to spam@dishone.st or trap@dishone.st
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

--
Regards,
Mark Rutherford
mark@justirc.net

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Paul Jakma]

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, Mark Rutherford wrote:

> the Linux drivers, are in my opinion far more superior than the Window$
> drivers.
> After all, you do get the kernel module source code....

No you do not.

You get source to the code that shims a big binary object file into 
whatever kernel you compile against.

> I dont think we should fault them, at least they give us something,
> we need to focus on the companies that give us NOTHING.

they havnt given us anything.

> end of rant :)

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	Sys Admin	Alphyra
	paulj@alphyra.ie
Warning: /never/ send email to spam@dishone.st or trap@dishone.st

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Krzysztof Halasa]

Andre Hedrick <andre@linux-ide.org> writes:

> Are you a customer of Nvidia?
> If you are not, you have no legal ground to invoke GPL PERIOD!

Which country has such weird copyright laws?

> If you are a customer, check to see that they have a GPL/GNU wrapper which
> is open source and attachs a clean LGPL library object, iirc.

I don't think we have LGPL code in the kernel, but of course I can be
wrong here.
Anyway, NVidia has binary driver being a kernel component and XFree86
driver. While XFree86 driver may or may not be subject to X11 license,
the kernel part (an object file which is then linked to a kernel module
glue code) does not seem to be derived from kernel code.

> Since, there is still a legal and valid LGPL regardless of what FSF has to
> say, there are revisions of GPL which permit various usages.

Still, LGPL has nothing to do with it. The kernel code is licensed
under version 2 of GPL (or maybe later version, but there isn't any).

Having or not having money has nothing to do with it either.

> Now until the kernel forcable rejects loading binary closed source
> modules, it defaults to quietly approved of the concept regardless what
> you think, feel, or care.

Kernel behaviour is not related to legal issues.

> If the kernel forces vendors to choose between closed source support or
> loose the competive edge in their market space, enjoy hunting for the old
> dusty video cards from the past.  You just limited the scope of hardware
> which will run on Linux with any usability.

Forget it. The kernel itselt can't force anyone to do anything. That is
the license that matters.
BTW: Of course, vendors are free to produce drivers for their hardware.
Have you seen such a closed-source driver which was working correctly?
I haven't.

> So you submitted a patch, whippty flip ... neither you or I control the
> license of the kernel.  If Linus does not like the content of a patch or a
> file generated, well it is toast.  Also where does it state a patch is
> defined as "GPL patch"?

IANAL, but I'd assume a patch doesn't change the license for a product
(a file etc), unless stated otherwise.

> Think a little harder first, cause I and many others will be on the side
> of slapping down your arguements about preventing binary modules from
> being loaded.  Key point! "LOADED" not "LINKED".

A module has to be linked when it's loaded. But it, of course, doesn't
matter - the GPL doesn't prevent you from linking GPL code to anything
you want, unless you want to distribute such a beast.
-- 
Krzysztof Halasa
Network Administrator

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Bill Davidsen]

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, David Schwartz wrote:

> 	I don't expect anyone to GPL unless they think they get more benefit from 
> GPLing than the potential harm done. People GPL code because they want to 
> 'donate' it to improve the open source movement, community, and code base. 
> Attempting to arm twist such donations is worse than foolish. You think the 
> open source community should be a bunch of bullies? Convince people open 
> source is best, and avoid them if they don't agree.

Certainly anyone who has had a problem, posted an oops, and been told that
no one will even look at a dump from a system with the nvidia driver might
think they were being bullied... 

-- 
bill davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
  CTO, TMR Associates, Inc
Doing interesting things with little computers since 1979.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[John Bradford]

> > Are drivers for Alpha, Sparc, or anything else with a pci slot apart
> > from an X86 machine available?
> 
> Unfortunately, that wouldn't be enought. There are lots of PCI graphics
> cards available, which still only work in an X86 (and in most cases Alpha)
> machines, although there is an open source driver. The reason is that they
> need the initialisation code in their PCI BIOS, which is X86, binary
> code.

Sorry, I didn't really explain what I meant very well.  I realise that
it's not just a case of getting the driver to compile on other
architectures, what I meant was that if the driver is open source then
anybody is free to work on the support for non-X86 boxes.  If it's
closed source, then only the manufacturer can work on it.

> Alpha works around this by using an X86 emulator in their PAL code.

That's interesting, I didn't know that.  How complete is it?  Does it
just emulate a subset of X86 instructions that are enough for 90% of
initialisation code?

John.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Jochen Friedrich]

Hi John,

> Are drivers for Alpha, Sparc, or anything else with a pci slot apart
> from an X86 machine available?

Unfortunately, that wouldn't be enought. There are lots of PCI graphics
cards available, which still only work in an X86 (and in most cases Alpha)
machines, although there is an open source driver. The reason is that they
need the initialisation code in their PCI BIOS, which is X86, binary code.
Alpha works around this by using an X86 emulator in their PAL code.

--jochen

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andrew Walrond]

I'll rephrase

Nvidia produce drivers *for use with* gnu/linux/xfree systems

But then you knew what I meant didn't you? Or are you a lawyer? ;)

Xavier Bestel wrote:
> Le mar 31/12/2002 à 11:51, Andrew Walrond a écrit :
> 
>>I hate feeding lawyers
>>NVidia produce excellent gnu/linux/xfree drivers for their video cards, 
> 
> 
> ?!? Since when does NVidia produce GNU (or even GPL) drivers ? That's
> very new to me, could you provide a link ?
> 
> 	Xav
> 

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Mark Rutherford]

I doubt this would 'destroy the community'...
Do I like it? Nope.
But here is the way I look at it...
Nvidia provides the driver, and it works. it means I can use their cards in
Linux.
the Linux drivers, are in my opinion far more superior than the Window$
drivers.
After all, you do get the kernel module source code....
Another thing you must realise is that these companies want to stay in
buisness and
just the fact that Nvidia has a linux driver probably torques m$ off as it is
they do not want to upset this company, lets face it, they are barbaric and
they are cabable of
bringing hardware makers to their knees if they wanted to.
They even have a *BSD driver now....
I like Nvidia, because they provide me with a driver that I can use, and it
works.
I also recall reading that they have code in their driver(s) that belongs to a
third party, making it
hard to release the source to the driver without upsetting the third party.
perhaps one day, they will be able to.
I dont think we should fault them, at least they give us something, we need to
focus on the companies that
give us NOTHING.

end of rant :)



Andre Hedrick wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:
>
> > Why does the community continue to make pacts with a company that
> > steals from its rivals, makes pacts with M$, and refuses to clearly GPL
> > and open source its work on drivers, there is a clear difference between
> > their use of GPL files, and what the GPL says they can do. You cannot
> > expect embedded kernel developers to GPL, if you excuse Nvidia, its a
> > vain hope to grab M$ users, but in the long run it destroys the
> > community.
> >
> > Dean. Three ways to kill yourself, and ive been drove in one...
>
> Well let's see:
>
> You have no money to hire lawyers.
> You whine about an issue, that people with lawyers will roast you alive.
>
> Are you a customer of Nvidia?
> If you are not, you have no legal ground to invoke GPL PERIOD!
> If you are a customer, check to see that they have a GPL/GNU wrapper which
> is open source and attachs a clean LGPL library object, iirc.
>
> Since, there is still a legal and valid LGPL regardless of what FSF has to
> say, there are revisions of GPL which permit various usages.  Now there
> are people like yourself who, again have no money, have no lawyers, have
> a whine, and whimpers over issues that stretch beyond the general scope.
>
> Recall the kernel is capable of rejecting non-gpl binary modules; yet it
> does not!  Regardless of the original intent or scope of the "tainting
> process", it created more grey than clarity.
>
> Now until the kernel forcable rejects loading binary closed source
> modules, it defaults to quietly approved of the concept regardless what
> you think, feel, or care.
>
> Now what is not clear?
>
> If the kernel forces vendors to choose between closed source support or
> loose the competive edge in their market space, enjoy hunting for the old
> dusty video cards from the past.  You just limited the scope of hardware
> which will run on Linux with any usability.
>
> Now given the kernel is now so well mixed between people in the past,
> current, and dead developers (sigh Leonard Z :-(( ), how are you going to
> hurd all togather to agree on a single point?
>
> So you submitted a patch, whippty flip ... neither you or I control the
> license of the kernel.  If Linus does not like the content of a patch or a
> file generated, well it is toast.  Also where does it state a patch is
> defined as "GPL patch"?
>
> Think a little harder first, cause I and many others will be on the side
> of slapping down your arguements about preventing binary modules from
> being loaded.  Key point! "LOADED" not "LINKED".  For the meatballs who
> think that dumping /proc/kcore is an effective way of generating a newly
> linked file, remember you created the file, not the owners of the module.
>
> Prove you can boot a cat /proc/kcore > vmlinux and you have now linked a
> closed source object with an open source kernel.  Using your logic from
> above, you are now the offending person to GPL.  You committed the act of
> linking the two permanetly.
>
> Time for bed, ranting is over ...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andre Hedrick
> LAD Storage Consulting Group
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

--
Regards,
Mark Rutherford
mark@justirc.net

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andre Hedrick]

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:

> Why does the community continue to make pacts with a company that
> steals from its rivals, makes pacts with M$, and refuses to clearly GPL
> and open source its work on drivers, there is a clear difference between
> their use of GPL files, and what the GPL says they can do. You cannot
> expect embedded kernel developers to GPL, if you excuse Nvidia, its a
> vain hope to grab M$ users, but in the long run it destroys the
> community.
> 
> Dean. Three ways to kill yourself, and ive been drove in one...

Well let's see:

You have no money to hire lawyers.
You whine about an issue, that people with lawyers will roast you alive.

Are you a customer of Nvidia?
If you are not, you have no legal ground to invoke GPL PERIOD!
If you are a customer, check to see that they have a GPL/GNU wrapper which
is open source and attachs a clean LGPL library object, iirc.

Since, there is still a legal and valid LGPL regardless of what FSF has to
say, there are revisions of GPL which permit various usages.  Now there
are people like yourself who, again have no money, have no lawyers, have
a whine, and whimpers over issues that stretch beyond the general scope.

Recall the kernel is capable of rejecting non-gpl binary modules; yet it
does not!  Regardless of the original intent or scope of the "tainting
process", it created more grey than clarity.

Now until the kernel forcable rejects loading binary closed source
modules, it defaults to quietly approved of the concept regardless what
you think, feel, or care.

Now what is not clear?

If the kernel forces vendors to choose between closed source support or
loose the competive edge in their market space, enjoy hunting for the old
dusty video cards from the past.  You just limited the scope of hardware
which will run on Linux with any usability.

Now given the kernel is now so well mixed between people in the past,
current, and dead developers (sigh Leonard Z :-(( ), how are you going to
hurd all togather to agree on a single point?

So you submitted a patch, whippty flip ... neither you or I control the
license of the kernel.  If Linus does not like the content of a patch or a
file generated, well it is toast.  Also where does it state a patch is
defined as "GPL patch"?

Think a little harder first, cause I and many others will be on the side
of slapping down your arguements about preventing binary modules from
being loaded.  Key point! "LOADED" not "LINKED".  For the meatballs who
think that dumping /proc/kcore is an effective way of generating a newly
linked file, remember you created the file, not the owners of the module.

Prove you can boot a cat /proc/kcore > vmlinux and you have now linked a
closed source object with an open source kernel.  Using your logic from
above, you are now the offending person to GPL.  You committed the act of
linking the two permanetly.

Time for bed, ranting is over ...

Cheers,

Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[John Bradford]

> > I hate feeding lawyers
> > NVidia produce excellent gnu/linux/xfree drivers for their video cards, 
> 
> ?!? Since when does NVidia produce GNU (or even GPL) drivers ? That's
> very new to me, could you provide a link ?

Are drivers for Alpha, Sparc, or anything else with a pci slot apart
from an X86 machine available?

John.

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Xavier Bestel]

Le mar 31/12/2002 à 11:51, Andrew Walrond a écrit :
> I hate feeding lawyers
> NVidia produce excellent gnu/linux/xfree drivers for their video cards, 

?!? Since when does NVidia produce GNU (or even GPL) drivers ? That's
very new to me, could you provide a link ?

	Xav

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andrew Walrond]

I hate feeding lawyers
NVidia produce excellent gnu/linux/xfree drivers for their video cards, 
so I buy and use their hardware. Anybody else read Peter Hamiltons 
Misspent Youth yet ? Really quite interesting... But we've all done this 
argument to death hundreds of times, and linux-kernel doesn't care!

While we're so off topic, Happy New Year to all fellow gnu/linux hackers!

Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[David Schwartz]

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:57:06 +0000, Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:

	To respond first to your subject, GPL'd code is given to everyone to do what 
they wish with, subject to certain very specific and narrow limitations.

>Why does the community continue to make pacts with a company that steals
>from its rivals, makes pacts with M$, and refuses to clearly GPL and open
>source its work on drivers,

	What type of "pact" are you talking about?

>there is a clear difference between their use of
>GPL files, and what the GPL says they can do.

	I presume you're talking about the inclusion of GPL'd header files into 
non-GPL'd code that is then distributed without source code? IMO, if the 
header file only includes things like structs and thin macros, that's 
insufficient to consider the compilation a derived work.

	You are welcome to argue for stronger and stronger copyright law enforcement 
and narrower and narrower constructions of fair use and first sale doctrines. 
However, IMO, it would be the stupidest possible thing the open source 
community could ever do.

>You cannot expect embedded
>kernel developers to GPL, if you excuse Nvidia, its a vain hope to grab M$
>users, but in the long run it destroys the community.

	I don't expect anyone to GPL unless they think they get more benefit from 
GPLing than the potential harm done. People GPL code because they want to 
'donate' it to improve the open source movement, community, and code base. 
Attempting to arm twist such donations is worse than foolish. You think the 
open source community should be a bunch of bullies? Convince people open 
source is best, and avoid them if they don't agree.

	DS

Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Hell.Surfers]

Why does the community continue to make pacts with a company that steals from its rivals, makes pacts with M$, and refuses to clearly GPL and open source its work on drivers, there is a clear difference between their use of GPL files, and what the GPL says they can do. You cannot expect embedded kernel developers to GPL, if you excuse Nvidia, its a vain hope to grab M$ users, but in the long run it destroys the community.

Dean. Three ways to kill yourself, and ive been drove in one...