Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk]

Part of what we brainstormed at Xen Hackathon was what we could do make Xen easier.

And the one thing that seemed to surface up was making the docs better - either
be the Wiki or the three .pdfs that get created/shipped with Xen.

One thought was to come up with a Documention Day - where volunteers would try to
fix up some portion of the documentation that they feel they have
a good grasp of knowledge off and are willing to change (and also look
to be incorrect)

What do you guys think of Oct 12th or Oct 26 as a day for this?

And then the next question - what page/pdf section interests you?

http://bits.xensource.com/Xen/docs/user.pdf
http://www.rites.uic.edu/~solworth/xenInterfaceManual.pdf [the one on Xen.org is an older version]

Or Wiki pages:
http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/

http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenDom0Kernels
http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenSerialConsole
http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenCommonProblems

http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consulting
http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consultants
http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/VpsHostingWithXen

http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenPCIpassthrough
http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/VTdHowTo

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[George Dunlap]

Another thing that needs to be done is to write man pages for xl, and
update the man pages for xm to indicate that it is deprecated.

We also discussed the idea of moving some of the documentation and the
HOWTOs into the xen.hg/docs folder, preferrably in a nice language
like Markdown, so that we can enforce changes in documentation with
changes code.  I propose using Markdown, if no one has a better idea.
:-)

 -George

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk
<konrad.wilk@oracle.com> wrote:
> Part of what we brainstormed at Xen Hackathon was what we could do make Xen easier.
>
> And the one thing that seemed to surface up was making the docs better - either
> be the Wiki or the three .pdfs that get created/shipped with Xen.
>
> One thought was to come up with a Documention Day - where volunteers would try to
> fix up some portion of the documentation that they feel they have
> a good grasp of knowledge off and are willing to change (and also look
> to be incorrect)
>
> What do you guys think of Oct 12th or Oct 26 as a day for this?
>
> And then the next question - what page/pdf section interests you?
>
> http://bits.xensource.com/Xen/docs/user.pdf
> http://www.rites.uic.edu/~solworth/xenInterfaceManual.pdf [the one on Xen.org is an older version]
>
> Or Wiki pages:
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/
>
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenDom0Kernels
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenSerialConsole
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenCommonProblems
>
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consulting
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consultants
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/VpsHostingWithXen
>
> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenPCIpassthrough
> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/VTdHowTo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
>

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 05:32:46PM +0100, George Dunlap wrote:
> Another thing that needs to be done is to write man pages for xl, and
> update the man pages for xm to indicate that it is deprecated.

So:

 1). PDF/section
 2). Wiki
 3). man page for xl/xm
 4). HOWTO, docs in xen.hg/docs
 5). Convert said HOWTO, docs in Markdown.

Who wants to do what? I created a sign up sheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj5ukWh4htwMdEFLVWpjRmx3VXdETDExNlByamd4Rmc&hl=en_US

in case folks want to get an idea of who is doing what and not
step on each toes.

> 
> We also discussed the idea of moving some of the documentation and the
> HOWTOs into the xen.hg/docs folder, preferrably in a nice language
> like Markdown, so that we can enforce changes in documentation with
> changes code.  I propose using Markdown, if no one has a better idea.

Which pretty much looks like writting normal text files per
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markdown description.
> :-)
> 
>  -George
> 
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk
> <konrad.wilk@oracle.com> wrote:
> > Part of what we brainstormed at Xen Hackathon was what we could do make Xen easier.
> >
> > And the one thing that seemed to surface up was making the docs better - either
> > be the Wiki or the three .pdfs that get created/shipped with Xen.
> >
> > One thought was to come up with a Documention Day - where volunteers would try to
> > fix up some portion of the documentation that they feel they have
> > a good grasp of knowledge off and are willing to change (and also look
> > to be incorrect)
> >
> > What do you guys think of Oct 12th or Oct 26 as a day for this?
> >
> > And then the next question - what page/pdf section interests you?
> >
> > http://bits.xensource.com/Xen/docs/user.pdf
> > http://www.rites.uic.edu/~solworth/xenInterfaceManual.pdf [the one on Xen.org is an older version]
> >
> > Or Wiki pages:
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/
> >
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenDom0Kernels
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenSerialConsole
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenCommonProblems
> >
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consulting
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consultants
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/VpsHostingWithXen
> >
> > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenPCIpassthrough
> > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/VTdHowTo
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Xen-devel mailing list
> > Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> > http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Ian Campbell]

On Thu, 2011-09-22 at 18:40 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 05:32:46PM +0100, George Dunlap wrote:
> > Another thing that needs to be done is to write man pages for xl, and
> > update the man pages for xm to indicate that it is deprecated.
> 
> So:
> 
>  1). PDF/section
>  2). Wiki
>  3). man page for xl/xm
>  4). HOWTO, docs in xen.hg/docs
>  5). Convert said HOWTO, docs in Markdown.

Another thing which came up which I'd like to do was setting up doxygen
(or something similar, recommendations greatfully received) for
xen/include/public to allow us to document the hypercall interface
inline, with the intention of replacing interface.tex with something we
might actually maintain.

> 
> Who wants to do what? I created a sign up sheet:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj5ukWh4htwMdEFLVWpjRmx3VXdETDExNlByamd4Rmc&hl=en_US
> 
> in case folks want to get an idea of who is doing what and not
> step on each toes.

We should have a specific IRC channel on the day too (e.g.
#xen-documentathon on freenode).

> 
> > 
> > We also discussed the idea of moving some of the documentation and the
> > HOWTOs into the xen.hg/docs folder, preferrably in a nice language
> > like Markdown, so that we can enforce changes in documentation with
> > changes code.  I propose using Markdown, if no one has a better idea.
> 
> Which pretty much looks like writting normal text files per
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markdown description.
> > :-)
> > 
> >  -George
> > 
> > On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk
> > <konrad.wilk@oracle.com> wrote:
> > > Part of what we brainstormed at Xen Hackathon was what we could do make Xen easier.
> > >
> > > And the one thing that seemed to surface up was making the docs better - either
> > > be the Wiki or the three .pdfs that get created/shipped with Xen.
> > >
> > > One thought was to come up with a Documention Day - where volunteers would try to
> > > fix up some portion of the documentation that they feel they have
> > > a good grasp of knowledge off and are willing to change (and also look
> > > to be incorrect)
> > >
> > > What do you guys think of Oct 12th or Oct 26 as a day for this?
> > >
> > > And then the next question - what page/pdf section interests you?
> > >
> > > http://bits.xensource.com/Xen/docs/user.pdf
> > > http://www.rites.uic.edu/~solworth/xenInterfaceManual.pdf [the one on Xen.org is an older version]
> > >
> > > Or Wiki pages:
> > > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/
> > >
> > > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenDom0Kernels
> > > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenSerialConsole
> > > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
> > > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenCommonProblems
> > >
> > > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consulting
> > > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consultants
> > > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/VpsHostingWithXen
> > >
> > > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenPCIpassthrough
> > > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/VTdHowTo
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Xen-devel mailing list
> > > Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> > > http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
> > >
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Xen-devel mailing list
> > Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> > http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk]

On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 09:14:26AM +0100, Ian Campbell wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-09-22 at 18:40 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 05:32:46PM +0100, George Dunlap wrote:
> > > Another thing that needs to be done is to write man pages for xl, and
> > > update the man pages for xm to indicate that it is deprecated.
> > 
> > So:
> > 
> >  1). PDF/section
> >  2). Wiki
> >  3). man page for xl/xm
> >  4). HOWTO, docs in xen.hg/docs
> >  5). Convert said HOWTO, docs in Markdown.
> 
> Another thing which came up which I'd like to do was setting up doxygen
> (or something similar, recommendations greatfully received) for
> xen/include/public to allow us to document the hypercall interface
> inline, with the intention of replacing interface.tex with something we
> might actually maintain.

OK, so:
 1). PDF/section -> convert to something we can easily understand
     and it creates nice PDFs.
 2). Wiki
 3). man page for xl/xm
 4). HOWTO, docs in xen.hg/docs
 5). Convert said HOWTO, docs in Markdown.

> 
> > 
> > Who wants to do what? I created a sign up sheet:
> > 
> > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj5ukWh4htwMdEFLVWpjRmx3VXdETDExNlByamd4Rmc&hl=en_US
> > 
> > in case folks want to get an idea of who is doing what and not
> > step on each toes.
> 
> We should have a specific IRC channel on the day too (e.g.
> #xen-documentathon on freenode).

<nods> Will do that. Was thinking to send a more "official" email
along with a blog post on Xen.org

But before I do that - date? Does that date work for folks? Oct 12th?
Or is Oct 26th better?

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Ian Campbell]

On Mon, 2011-09-26 at 19:15 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> But before I do that - date? Does that date work for folks? Oct 12th?
> Or is Oct 26th better? 

They are equally fine for me.

Ian.

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Sander Eikelenboom]

Hello Konrad,

Monday, September 26, 2011, 8:15:36 PM, you wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 09:14:26AM +0100, Ian Campbell wrote:
>> On Thu, 2011-09-22 at 18:40 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
>> > On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 05:32:46PM +0100, George Dunlap wrote:
>> > > Another thing that needs to be done is to write man pages for xl, and
>> > > update the man pages for xm to indicate that it is deprecated.
>> > 
>> > So:
>> > 
>> >  1). PDF/section
>> >  2). Wiki
>> >  3). man page for xl/xm
>> >  4). HOWTO, docs in xen.hg/docs
>> >  5). Convert said HOWTO, docs in Markdown.
>> 
>> Another thing which came up which I'd like to do was setting up doxygen
>> (or something similar, recommendations greatfully received) for
>> xen/include/public to allow us to document the hypercall interface
>> inline, with the intention of replacing interface.tex with something we
>> might actually maintain.

> OK, so:
>  1). PDF/section -> convert to something we can easily understand
>      and it creates nice PDFs.
>  2). Wiki

Some pages i missed in your previous lists:
     - http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenHypervisorBootOptions
     - List of Xen specific/related Linux kernel boot options
     - A very good (set of) structured start page(s) so you get a overview of what documentation is available

>  3). man page for xl/xm
>  4). HOWTO, docs in xen.hg/docs
>  5). Convert said HOWTO, docs in Markdown.

>> 
>> > 
>> > Who wants to do what? I created a sign up sheet:
>> > 
>> > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj5ukWh4htwMdEFLVWpjRmx3VXdETDExNlByamd4Rmc&hl=en_US
>> > 
>> > in case folks want to get an idea of who is doing what and not
>> > step on each toes.
>> 
>> We should have a specific IRC channel on the day too (e.g.
>> #xen-documentathon on freenode).

> <nods> Will do that. Was thinking to send a more "official" email
> along with a blog post on Xen.org

> But before I do that - date? Does that date work for folks? Oct 12th?
> Or is Oct 26th better?





-- 
Best regards,
 Sander                            mailto:linux@eikelenboom.it

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Daniel Castro]

On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 2:13 AM, Ian Jackson <Ian.Jackson@eu.citrix.com> wrote:
> Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)"):
>> [ docs todo list ]
> ...
>> Who wants to do what? I created a sign up sheet:
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj5ukWh4htwMdEFLVWpjRmx3VXdETDExNlByamd4Rmc&hl=en_US
>>
>> in case folks want to get an idea of who is doing what and not
>> step on each toes.
>
> Daniel, I see you have put yourself down for some things to do with
> "PDF manual".  I'm not sure exactly what you mean.  Do you mean the
> user manual or the internals ("interface.tex") ?
>
> I think that both of these TeX documents really need to be abolished.
> They're too hard to maintain so they have rotted; even if we were to
> fix that they wouldn't stay up to date.

I was meaning the interface document. My current work involves
interacting with almost all parts of that document, so giving C
examples was very easy for me and I thought it would be very helpful
for new developers in the future. There are not many resources for new
developers and Xen has a big entry barrier due to its size and
complexity.

For example there is no official guide on how to build Xen on a new
system, and it took me several days to have a working system. When
developing code, in my case most of the needed documentation came from
The Definitive Guide to Xen Hypervisor from PrenticeHall Press. But
its becoming outdated now, sadly. And in some few cases it is very
general and lack much needed detail. I do understand that Xen is huge
and making a easy guide for everything is impractical.

Let me know how I can help, I really do want to help.

>
> I have volunteered to do some manpage-style or markdown docs for xl.
>
> Ian.
>



-- 
+-=====---------------------------+
| +---------------------------------+ | This space intentionally blank
for notetaking.
| |   | Daniel Castro,                |
| |   | Consultant/Programmer.|
| |   | U Andes                         |
+-------------------------------------+

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Ian Campbell]

On Tue, 2011-09-27 at 23:18 +0100, Daniel Castro wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 2:13 AM, Ian Jackson <Ian.Jackson@eu.citrix.com> wrote:
> > Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)"):
> >> [ docs todo list ]
> > ...
> >> Who wants to do what? I created a sign up sheet:
> >>
> >> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj5ukWh4htwMdEFLVWpjRmx3VXdETDExNlByamd4Rmc&hl=en_US
> >>
> >> in case folks want to get an idea of who is doing what and not
> >> step on each toes.
> >
> > Daniel, I see you have put yourself down for some things to do with
> > "PDF manual".  I'm not sure exactly what you mean.  Do you mean the
> > user manual or the internals ("interface.tex") ?
> >
> > I think that both of these TeX documents really need to be abolished.
> > They're too hard to maintain so they have rotted; even if we were to
> > fix that they wouldn't stay up to date.
> 
> I was meaning the interface document. My current work involves
> interacting with almost all parts of that document, so giving C
> examples was very easy for me

I think these examples would be useful but I agree with Ian that
interfaces.tex is not the right place for them since we'd like to remove
it in favour of something maintainable.

Since the guest APIs are stable there should be relatively little churn
so perhaps a wiki page (or even series of pages) would be appropriate
for this sort of thing?

> For example there is no official guide on how to build Xen on a new
> system, and it took me several days to have a working system.

I think this would be good too and in fact even more important than the
interface documentation. Everyone needs to be able to build Xen to hack
on it but only a subset need to know any particular API.

Also although we recommend that users consume Xen via their distro where
possible such a guide would also help any who would rather build from
scratch (e.g. because we've asked them to "try the latest version" or to
bisect a bug etc).

Ian.

>  When
> developing code, in my case most of the needed documentation came from
> The Definitive Guide to Xen Hypervisor from PrenticeHall Press. But
> its becoming outdated now, sadly. And in some few cases it is very
> general and lack much needed detail. I do understand that Xen is huge
> and making a easy guide for everything is impractical.
> 
> Let me know how I can help, I really do want to help.
> 
> >
> > I have volunteered to do some manpage-style or markdown docs for xl.
> >
> > Ian.
> >
> 
> 
> 

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Ian Jackson]

Ian Campbell writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)"):
> Since the guest APIs are stable there should be relatively little churn
> so perhaps a wiki page (or even series of pages) would be appropriate
> for this sort of thing?

I want this to be in-tree.  If it's in-tree, we can refuse patches
which do not update the documentation.

> I think this would be good too and in fact even more important than the
> interface documentation. Everyone needs to be able to build Xen to hack
> on it but only a subset need to know any particular API.
> 
> Also although we recommend that users consume Xen via their distro where
> possible such a guide would also help any who would rather build from
> scratch (e.g. because we've asked them to "try the latest version" or to
> bisect a bug etc).

This would be a good candidate for a wiki page, backed up by revisions
of the in-tree README.

Ian.

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk]

On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 02:26:31PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Ian Campbell writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)"):
> > Since the guest APIs are stable there should be relatively little churn
> > so perhaps a wiki page (or even series of pages) would be appropriate
> > for this sort of thing?
> 
> I want this to be in-tree.  If it's in-tree, we can refuse patches
> which do not update the documentation.
> 
> > I think this would be good too and in fact even more important than the
> > interface documentation. Everyone needs to be able to build Xen to hack
> > on it but only a subset need to know any particular API.
> > 
> > Also although we recommend that users consume Xen via their distro where
> > possible such a guide would also help any who would rather build from
> > scratch (e.g. because we've asked them to "try the latest version" or to
> > bisect a bug etc).
> 
> This would be a good candidate for a wiki page, backed up by revisions
> of the in-tree README.


Any recommendations on what would be a good format to write these "interface"
pages in?

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Ian Campbell]

On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 14:48 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 02:26:31PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > Ian Campbell writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)"):
> > > Since the guest APIs are stable there should be relatively little churn
> > > so perhaps a wiki page (or even series of pages) would be appropriate
> > > for this sort of thing?
> > 
> > I want this to be in-tree.  If it's in-tree, we can refuse patches
> > which do not update the documentation.
> > 
> > > I think this would be good too and in fact even more important than the
> > > interface documentation. Everyone needs to be able to build Xen to hack
> > > on it but only a subset need to know any particular API.
> > > 
> > > Also although we recommend that users consume Xen via their distro where
> > > possible such a guide would also help any who would rather build from
> > > scratch (e.g. because we've asked them to "try the latest version" or to
> > > bisect a bug etc).
> > 
> > This would be a good candidate for a wiki page, backed up by revisions
> > of the in-tree README.
> 
> 
> Any recommendations on what would be a good format to write these "interface"
> pages in?

For in-line (i.e. in xen/include/public/*.h) docs of APIs I played a
little bit with integrating kernel-doc into the Xen build system but it
is tied a little too closely to the kernel build infrastructure.

Doxygen seems like a plausible alternative with life outside the kernel
etc. We actually appear to already have some doxygen stuff for the
pytyhon stuff (judging from the Makefile, I've not actually noticed the
structured code comments anywhere)

For non-inline docs I think we decided that markdown would be a good
answer.

Ian.

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Joseph Glanville]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3766 bytes --]

+1 for Markdown.

In terms of making Xen more accessible I think it might be a good idea to
update/cleanup the distro support page.
http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/DistributionSupport

I can probably do this.
Making it simple for people to get started with Xen on a distro they are
comfortable with is a good step forward.
I know distro specific guides could turn into a nightmare but I am open to
writing one for Debian 6 Squeeze, there are also a few that exist already
for RHEL/CentOS on the wiki.
This should get easier as more distros update to 3.0+ kernels that support
PVops out of the box...

Next would be networking documentation as network-bridge script has been
deprecated.
http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenNetworking
Once again I think alot of the documentation is going to be distro specific
to be newbie friendly but atleast a simple ip/brctl guide would help.

IMO knowing where to start and setting up networking were the biggest
barriers when I was picking up Xen a few years back.

I am also open to updating the blktap2 pages and README to reflect the new
tap-ctl userspace utilities and tips on driver development.

<slightly off-topic but related>

With jailtime.org(stacklet) now charging for subscription there is nowhere
to download pre-built clean Xen compatible images free of charge etc.
I have pvgrub/pygrub capable images of Ubuntu/Debian/CentOS that I am
considering hosting for free.
Generally new users are confused on how to build new paravirt VMs, I think
prebuilt images are suboptimal but a good place to start for beginners.

Joseph.

On 29 September 2011 00:00, Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@eu.citrix.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 14:48 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 02:26:31PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > > Ian Campbell writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] Xen document day (Oct 12 or
> 26)"):
> > > > Since the guest APIs are stable there should be relatively little
> churn
> > > > so perhaps a wiki page (or even series of pages) would be appropriate
> > > > for this sort of thing?
> > >
> > > I want this to be in-tree.  If it's in-tree, we can refuse patches
> > > which do not update the documentation.
> > >
> > > > I think this would be good too and in fact even more important than
> the
> > > > interface documentation. Everyone needs to be able to build Xen to
> hack
> > > > on it but only a subset need to know any particular API.
> > > >
> > > > Also although we recommend that users consume Xen via their distro
> where
> > > > possible such a guide would also help any who would rather build from
> > > > scratch (e.g. because we've asked them to "try the latest version" or
> to
> > > > bisect a bug etc).
> > >
> > > This would be a good candidate for a wiki page, backed up by revisions
> > > of the in-tree README.
> >
> >
> > Any recommendations on what would be a good format to write these
> "interface"
> > pages in?
>
> For in-line (i.e. in xen/include/public/*.h) docs of APIs I played a
> little bit with integrating kernel-doc into the Xen build system but it
> is tied a little too closely to the kernel build infrastructure.
>
> Doxygen seems like a plausible alternative with life outside the kernel
> etc. We actually appear to already have some doxygen stuff for the
> pytyhon stuff (judging from the Makefile, I've not actually noticed the
> structured code comments anywhere)
>
> For non-inline docs I think we decided that markdown would be a good
> answer.
>
> Ian.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
>



-- 
*
Founder | Director | VP Research
Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99 52
| Mobile: 0428 754 846

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_______________________________________________
Xen-devel mailing list
Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Ian Campbell]

On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 11:53 +0100, Joseph Glanville wrote:
> +1 for Markdown.
> 
> In terms of making Xen more accessible I think it might be a good idea
> to update/cleanup the distro support page.
> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/DistributionSupport
> 
> I can probably do this.

Excellent, it looks like it needs it...

> Making it simple for people to get started with Xen on a distro they
> are comfortable with is a good step forward.

Agreed. In fact for many users this is probably the end goal, not just a
step along the way.

> I know distro specific guides could turn into a nightmare but I am
> open to writing one for Debian 6 Squeeze,

In cases such as this we should also consider updating the distro's wiki
page. I'm not sure where the canonical guide should live (wiki.xen.org
or wiki.debian.org) but they should certainly cross reference each
other.

>  there are also a few that exist already for RHEL/CentOS on the wiki.
> This should get easier as more distros update to 3.0+ kernels that
> support PVops out of the box...
> 
> Next would be networking documentation as network-bridge script has
> been deprecated.
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenNetworking
> Once again I think alot of the documentation is going to be distro
> specific to be newbie friendly but atleast a simple ip/brctl guide
> would help.
> 
> IMO knowing where to start and setting up networking were the biggest
> barriers when I was picking up Xen a few years back.

We now have
http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/HostConfiguration/Networking which
could do with being made more discoverable.

There is also http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/HostConfiguration but
its looking pretty sad right now...

> 
> I am also open to updating the blktap2 pages and README to reflect the
> new tap-ctl userspace utilities and tips on driver development.
> 
> <slightly off-topic but related>
> 
> With jailtime.org(stacklet) now charging for subscription there is
> nowhere to download pre-built clean Xen compatible images free of
> charge etc.
> I have pvgrub/pygrub capable images of Ubuntu/Debian/CentOS that I am
> considering hosting for free.
> Generally new users are confused on how to build new paravirt VMs, I
> think prebuilt images are suboptimal but a good place to start for
> beginners.

There was discussion of Debian providing such a thing on debian-deval
back in late July, I should chase that up really.

Cheers,
Ian.

> 
> Joseph.
> 
> On 29 September 2011 00:00, Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@eu.citrix.com>
> wrote:
>         On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 14:48 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk
>         wrote:
>         > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 02:26:31PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
>         > > Ian Campbell writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] Xen document day
>         (Oct 12 or 26)"):
>         > > > Since the guest APIs are stable there should be
>         relatively little churn
>         > > > so perhaps a wiki page (or even series of pages) would
>         be appropriate
>         > > > for this sort of thing?
>         > >
>         > > I want this to be in-tree.  If it's in-tree, we can refuse
>         patches
>         > > which do not update the documentation.
>         > >
>         > > > I think this would be good too and in fact even more
>         important than the
>         > > > interface documentation. Everyone needs to be able to
>         build Xen to hack
>         > > > on it but only a subset need to know any particular API.
>         > > >
>         > > > Also although we recommend that users consume Xen via
>         their distro where
>         > > > possible such a guide would also help any who would
>         rather build from
>         > > > scratch (e.g. because we've asked them to "try the
>         latest version" or to
>         > > > bisect a bug etc).
>         > >
>         > > This would be a good candidate for a wiki page, backed up
>         by revisions
>         > > of the in-tree README.
>         >
>         >
>         > Any recommendations on what would be a good format to write
>         these "interface"
>         > pages in?
>         
>         
>         For in-line (i.e. in xen/include/public/*.h) docs of APIs I
>         played a
>         little bit with integrating kernel-doc into the Xen build
>         system but it
>         is tied a little too closely to the kernel build
>         infrastructure.
>         
>         Doxygen seems like a plausible alternative with life outside
>         the kernel
>         etc. We actually appear to already have some doxygen stuff for
>         the
>         pytyhon stuff (judging from the Makefile, I've not actually
>         noticed the
>         structured code comments anywhere)
>         
>         For non-inline docs I think we decided that markdown would be
>         a good
>         answer.
>         
>         Ian.
>         
>         
>         
>         _______________________________________________
>         Xen-devel mailing list
>         Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
>         http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
>         
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Founder | Director | VP Research
> 
> Orion Virtualisation Solutions | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56
> 99 52 | Mobile: 0428 754 846

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Joseph Glanville]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6413 bytes --]

Maybe the wiki frontpage etc needs abit of a restructure to highlight the
newer documentation and try steer people away from old stuff?
I am going to try do some tagging of the wiki pages tonight to mark what is
out of date.
Many of the pages I think just need simplification.. the current wiki is
somewhat of an information overload (which is fine but we shouldn't bombard
new users if we can avoid it)

On 29 September 2011 21:01, Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@eu.citrix.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 11:53 +0100, Joseph Glanville wrote:
> > +1 for Markdown.
> >
> > In terms of making Xen more accessible I think it might be a good idea
> > to update/cleanup the distro support page.
> > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/DistributionSupport
> >
> > I can probably do this.
>
> Excellent, it looks like it needs it...
>
> > Making it simple for people to get started with Xen on a distro they
> > are comfortable with is a good step forward.
>
> Agreed. In fact for many users this is probably the end goal, not just a
> step along the way.
>
> > I know distro specific guides could turn into a nightmare but I am
> > open to writing one for Debian 6 Squeeze,
>
> In cases such as this we should also consider updating the distro's wiki
> page. I'm not sure where the canonical guide should live (wiki.xen.org
> or wiki.debian.org) but they should certainly cross reference each
> other.
>

Yeah that's a tricky one, I guess we can start at wiki.xen.org and go from
there.
Seeing as Debian repackages Xen, wiki.debian.org should probably be the
final canonical location.


>
> >  there are also a few that exist already for RHEL/CentOS on the wiki.
> > This should get easier as more distros update to 3.0+ kernels that
> > support PVops out of the box...
> >
> > Next would be networking documentation as network-bridge script has
> > been deprecated.
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenNetworking
> > Once again I think alot of the documentation is going to be distro
> > specific to be newbie friendly but atleast a simple ip/brctl guide
> > would help.
> >
> > IMO knowing where to start and setting up networking were the biggest
> > barriers when I was picking up Xen a few years back.
>
> We now have
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/HostConfiguration/Networking which
> could do with being made more discoverable.
>

That is -much- better and as you said should be much easier to find..

>
> There is also http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/HostConfiguration but
> its looking pretty sad right now...
>

I can think of some stuff to fill that up.
eg. Howto enable live migration, local VM storage guide possibly


>
> >
> > I am also open to updating the blktap2 pages and README to reflect the
> > new tap-ctl userspace utilities and tips on driver development.
> >
> > <slightly off-topic but related>
> >
> > With jailtime.org(stacklet) now charging for subscription there is
> > nowhere to download pre-built clean Xen compatible images free of
> > charge etc.
> > I have pvgrub/pygrub capable images of Ubuntu/Debian/CentOS that I am
> > considering hosting for free.
> > Generally new users are confused on how to build new paravirt VMs, I
> > think prebuilt images are suboptimal but a good place to start for
> > beginners.
>
> There was discussion of Debian providing such a thing on debian-deval
> back in late July, I should chase that up really.
>
> Cheers,
> Ian.
>
> >
> > Joseph.
> >
> > On 29 September 2011 00:00, Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@eu.citrix.com>
> > wrote:
> >         On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 14:48 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk
> >         wrote:
> >         > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 02:26:31PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> >         > > Ian Campbell writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] Xen document day
> >         (Oct 12 or 26)"):
> >         > > > Since the guest APIs are stable there should be
> >         relatively little churn
> >         > > > so perhaps a wiki page (or even series of pages) would
> >         be appropriate
> >         > > > for this sort of thing?
> >         > >
> >         > > I want this to be in-tree.  If it's in-tree, we can refuse
> >         patches
> >         > > which do not update the documentation.
> >         > >
> >         > > > I think this would be good too and in fact even more
> >         important than the
> >         > > > interface documentation. Everyone needs to be able to
> >         build Xen to hack
> >         > > > on it but only a subset need to know any particular API.
> >         > > >
> >         > > > Also although we recommend that users consume Xen via
> >         their distro where
> >         > > > possible such a guide would also help any who would
> >         rather build from
> >         > > > scratch (e.g. because we've asked them to "try the
> >         latest version" or to
> >         > > > bisect a bug etc).
> >         > >
> >         > > This would be a good candidate for a wiki page, backed up
> >         by revisions
> >         > > of the in-tree README.
> >         >
> >         >
> >         > Any recommendations on what would be a good format to write
> >         these "interface"
> >         > pages in?
> >
> >
> >         For in-line (i.e. in xen/include/public/*.h) docs of APIs I
> >         played a
> >         little bit with integrating kernel-doc into the Xen build
> >         system but it
> >         is tied a little too closely to the kernel build
> >         infrastructure.
> >
> >         Doxygen seems like a plausible alternative with life outside
> >         the kernel
> >         etc. We actually appear to already have some doxygen stuff for
> >         the
> >         pytyhon stuff (judging from the Makefile, I've not actually
> >         noticed the
> >         structured code comments anywhere)
> >
> >         For non-inline docs I think we decided that markdown would be
> >         a good
> >         answer.
> >
> >         Ian.
> >
> >
> >
> >         _______________________________________________
> >         Xen-devel mailing list
> >         Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> >         http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Founder | Director | VP Research
> >
> > Orion Virtualisation Solutions | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56
> > 99 52 | Mobile: 0428 754 846
>
>
>


-- 
*
Founder | Director | VP Research
Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99 52
| Mobile: 0428 754 846

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_______________________________________________
Xen-devel mailing list
Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Ian Campbell]

On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 12:24 +0100, Joseph Glanville wrote:
> Maybe the wiki frontpage etc needs abit of a restructure to highlight
> the newer documentation and try steer people away from old stuff?
> I am going to try do some tagging of the wiki pages tonight to mark
> what is out of date.
> Many of the pages I think just need simplification.. the current wiki
> is somewhat of an information overload (which is fine but we shouldn't
> bombard new users if we can avoid it)

I think Lars (now CC'd) is planning a switch to a new wiki platform
since the current one is very long in the tooth and not especially
capable. AIUI part of the transfer will involve discarding out of date
stuff and better categorisation of correct/up-to-date pages etc.

I'm not sure how the timescales for that transition compare with this
documentathon though...

Ian.

> On 29 September 2011 21:01, Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@eu.citrix.com>
> wrote:
>         On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 11:53 +0100, Joseph Glanville wrote:
>         > +1 for Markdown.
>         >
>         > In terms of making Xen more accessible I think it might be a
>         good idea
>         > to update/cleanup the distro support page.
>         > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/DistributionSupport
>         >
>         > I can probably do this.
>         
>         
>         Excellent, it looks like it needs it...
>         
>         > Making it simple for people to get started with Xen on a
>         distro they
>         > are comfortable with is a good step forward.
>         
>         
>         Agreed. In fact for many users this is probably the end goal,
>         not just a
>         step along the way.
>         
>         > I know distro specific guides could turn into a nightmare
>         but I am
>         > open to writing one for Debian 6 Squeeze,
>         
>         
>         In cases such as this we should also consider updating the
>         distro's wiki
>         page. I'm not sure where the canonical guide should live
>         (wiki.xen.org
>         or wiki.debian.org) but they should certainly cross reference
>         each
>         other.
>  
> Yeah that's a tricky one, I guess we can start at wiki.xen.org and go
> from there.
> Seeing as Debian repackages Xen, wiki.debian.org should probably be
> the final canonical location.
>  
> 
>         
>         >  there are also a few that exist already for RHEL/CentOS on
>         the wiki.
>         > This should get easier as more distros update to 3.0+
>         kernels that
>         > support PVops out of the box...
>         >
>         > Next would be networking documentation as network-bridge
>         script has
>         > been deprecated.
>         > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenNetworking
>         > Once again I think alot of the documentation is going to be
>         distro
>         > specific to be newbie friendly but atleast a simple ip/brctl
>         guide
>         > would help.
>         >
>         > IMO knowing where to start and setting up networking were
>         the biggest
>         > barriers when I was picking up Xen a few years back.
>         
>         
>         We now have
>         http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/HostConfiguration/Networking
>         which
>         could do with being made more discoverable.
>  
> That is -much- better and as you said should be much easier to find.. 
> 
>         
>         There is also
>         http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/HostConfiguration but
>         its looking pretty sad right now...
>  
> I can think of some stuff to fill that up.
> eg. Howto enable live migration, local VM storage guide possibly
>  
> 
>         
>         >
>         > I am also open to updating the blktap2 pages and README to
>         reflect the
>         > new tap-ctl userspace utilities and tips on driver
>         development.
>         >
>         > <slightly off-topic but related>
>         >
>         > With jailtime.org(stacklet) now charging for subscription
>         there is
>         > nowhere to download pre-built clean Xen compatible images
>         free of
>         > charge etc.
>         > I have pvgrub/pygrub capable images of Ubuntu/Debian/CentOS
>         that I am
>         > considering hosting for free.
>         > Generally new users are confused on how to build new
>         paravirt VMs, I
>         > think prebuilt images are suboptimal but a good place to
>         start for
>         > beginners.
>         
>         
>         There was discussion of Debian providing such a thing on
>         debian-deval
>         back in late July, I should chase that up really.
>         
>         Cheers,
>         Ian.
>         
>         
>         >
>         > Joseph.
>         >
>         > On 29 September 2011 00:00, Ian Campbell
>         <Ian.Campbell@eu.citrix.com>
>         > wrote:
>         >         On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 14:48 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek
>         Wilk
>         >         wrote:
>         >         > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 02:26:31PM +0100, Ian
>         Jackson wrote:
>         >         > > Ian Campbell writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] Xen
>         document day
>         >         (Oct 12 or 26)"):
>         >         > > > Since the guest APIs are stable there should
>         be
>         >         relatively little churn
>         >         > > > so perhaps a wiki page (or even series of
>         pages) would
>         >         be appropriate
>         >         > > > for this sort of thing?
>         >         > >
>         >         > > I want this to be in-tree.  If it's in-tree, we
>         can refuse
>         >         patches
>         >         > > which do not update the documentation.
>         >         > >
>         >         > > > I think this would be good too and in fact
>         even more
>         >         important than the
>         >         > > > interface documentation. Everyone needs to be
>         able to
>         >         build Xen to hack
>         >         > > > on it but only a subset need to know any
>         particular API.
>         >         > > >
>         >         > > > Also although we recommend that users consume
>         Xen via
>         >         their distro where
>         >         > > > possible such a guide would also help any who
>         would
>         >         rather build from
>         >         > > > scratch (e.g. because we've asked them to "try
>         the
>         >         latest version" or to
>         >         > > > bisect a bug etc).
>         >         > >
>         >         > > This would be a good candidate for a wiki page,
>         backed up
>         >         by revisions
>         >         > > of the in-tree README.
>         >         >
>         >         >
>         >         > Any recommendations on what would be a good format
>         to write
>         >         these "interface"
>         >         > pages in?
>         >
>         >
>         >         For in-line (i.e. in xen/include/public/*.h) docs of
>         APIs I
>         >         played a
>         >         little bit with integrating kernel-doc into the Xen
>         build
>         >         system but it
>         >         is tied a little too closely to the kernel build
>         >         infrastructure.
>         >
>         >         Doxygen seems like a plausible alternative with life
>         outside
>         >         the kernel
>         >         etc. We actually appear to already have some doxygen
>         stuff for
>         >         the
>         >         pytyhon stuff (judging from the Makefile, I've not
>         actually
>         >         noticed the
>         >         structured code comments anywhere)
>         >
>         >         For non-inline docs I think we decided that markdown
>         would be
>         >         a good
>         >         answer.
>         >
>         >         Ian.
>         >
>         >
>         >
>         >         _______________________________________________
>         >         Xen-devel mailing list
>         >         Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
>         >         http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
>         >
>         >
>         >
>         >
>         > --
>         > Founder | Director | VP Research
>         >
>         > Orion Virtualisation Solutions | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone:
>         1300 56
>         > 99 52 | Mobile: 0428 754 846
>         
>         
>         
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Founder | Director | VP Research
> 
> Orion Virtualisation Solutions | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56
> 99 52 | Mobile: 0428 754 846

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Joseph Glanville]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 9487 bytes --]

Yeah MoinMoin is abit frustrating.. I am currently going through the pages
in the TitleIndex:
http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/TitleIndex
Marking pages as out-dated as a find them.. maybe it would be best to create
a google spreadsheet and mark their status in there to ease finding what
content is good vs bad?
How does that sound Lars/Ian?

Joseph.

On 29 September 2011 21:29, Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@eu.citrix.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 12:24 +0100, Joseph Glanville wrote:
> > Maybe the wiki frontpage etc needs abit of a restructure to highlight
> > the newer documentation and try steer people away from old stuff?
> > I am going to try do some tagging of the wiki pages tonight to mark
> > what is out of date.
> > Many of the pages I think just need simplification.. the current wiki
> > is somewhat of an information overload (which is fine but we shouldn't
> > bombard new users if we can avoid it)
>
> I think Lars (now CC'd) is planning a switch to a new wiki platform
> since the current one is very long in the tooth and not especially
> capable. AIUI part of the transfer will involve discarding out of date
> stuff and better categorisation of correct/up-to-date pages etc.
>
> I'm not sure how the timescales for that transition compare with this
> documentathon though...
>
> Ian.
>
> > On 29 September 2011 21:01, Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@eu.citrix.com>
> > wrote:
> >         On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 11:53 +0100, Joseph Glanville wrote:
> >         > +1 for Markdown.
> >         >
> >         > In terms of making Xen more accessible I think it might be a
> >         good idea
> >         > to update/cleanup the distro support page.
> >         > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/DistributionSupport
> >         >
> >         > I can probably do this.
> >
> >
> >         Excellent, it looks like it needs it...
> >
> >         > Making it simple for people to get started with Xen on a
> >         distro they
> >         > are comfortable with is a good step forward.
> >
> >
> >         Agreed. In fact for many users this is probably the end goal,
> >         not just a
> >         step along the way.
> >
> >         > I know distro specific guides could turn into a nightmare
> >         but I am
> >         > open to writing one for Debian 6 Squeeze,
> >
> >
> >         In cases such as this we should also consider updating the
> >         distro's wiki
> >         page. I'm not sure where the canonical guide should live
> >         (wiki.xen.org
> >         or wiki.debian.org) but they should certainly cross reference
> >         each
> >         other.
> >
> > Yeah that's a tricky one, I guess we can start at wiki.xen.org and go
> > from there.
> > Seeing as Debian repackages Xen, wiki.debian.org should probably be
> > the final canonical location.
> >
> >
> >
> >         >  there are also a few that exist already for RHEL/CentOS on
> >         the wiki.
> >         > This should get easier as more distros update to 3.0+
> >         kernels that
> >         > support PVops out of the box...
> >         >
> >         > Next would be networking documentation as network-bridge
> >         script has
> >         > been deprecated.
> >         > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenNetworking
> >         > Once again I think alot of the documentation is going to be
> >         distro
> >         > specific to be newbie friendly but atleast a simple ip/brctl
> >         guide
> >         > would help.
> >         >
> >         > IMO knowing where to start and setting up networking were
> >         the biggest
> >         > barriers when I was picking up Xen a few years back.
> >
> >
> >         We now have
> >         http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/HostConfiguration/Networking
> >         which
> >         could do with being made more discoverable.
> >
> > That is -much- better and as you said should be much easier to find..
> >
> >
> >         There is also
> >         http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/HostConfiguration but
> >         its looking pretty sad right now...
> >
> > I can think of some stuff to fill that up.
> > eg. Howto enable live migration, local VM storage guide possibly
> >
> >
> >
> >         >
> >         > I am also open to updating the blktap2 pages and README to
> >         reflect the
> >         > new tap-ctl userspace utilities and tips on driver
> >         development.
> >         >
> >         > <slightly off-topic but related>
> >         >
> >         > With jailtime.org(stacklet) now charging for subscription
> >         there is
> >         > nowhere to download pre-built clean Xen compatible images
> >         free of
> >         > charge etc.
> >         > I have pvgrub/pygrub capable images of Ubuntu/Debian/CentOS
> >         that I am
> >         > considering hosting for free.
> >         > Generally new users are confused on how to build new
> >         paravirt VMs, I
> >         > think prebuilt images are suboptimal but a good place to
> >         start for
> >         > beginners.
> >
> >
> >         There was discussion of Debian providing such a thing on
> >         debian-deval
> >         back in late July, I should chase that up really.
> >
> >         Cheers,
> >         Ian.
> >
> >
> >         >
> >         > Joseph.
> >         >
> >         > On 29 September 2011 00:00, Ian Campbell
> >         <Ian.Campbell@eu.citrix.com>
> >         > wrote:
> >         >         On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 14:48 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek
> >         Wilk
> >         >         wrote:
> >         >         > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 02:26:31PM +0100, Ian
> >         Jackson wrote:
> >         >         > > Ian Campbell writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] Xen
> >         document day
> >         >         (Oct 12 or 26)"):
> >         >         > > > Since the guest APIs are stable there should
> >         be
> >         >         relatively little churn
> >         >         > > > so perhaps a wiki page (or even series of
> >         pages) would
> >         >         be appropriate
> >         >         > > > for this sort of thing?
> >         >         > >
> >         >         > > I want this to be in-tree.  If it's in-tree, we
> >         can refuse
> >         >         patches
> >         >         > > which do not update the documentation.
> >         >         > >
> >         >         > > > I think this would be good too and in fact
> >         even more
> >         >         important than the
> >         >         > > > interface documentation. Everyone needs to be
> >         able to
> >         >         build Xen to hack
> >         >         > > > on it but only a subset need to know any
> >         particular API.
> >         >         > > >
> >         >         > > > Also although we recommend that users consume
> >         Xen via
> >         >         their distro where
> >         >         > > > possible such a guide would also help any who
> >         would
> >         >         rather build from
> >         >         > > > scratch (e.g. because we've asked them to "try
> >         the
> >         >         latest version" or to
> >         >         > > > bisect a bug etc).
> >         >         > >
> >         >         > > This would be a good candidate for a wiki page,
> >         backed up
> >         >         by revisions
> >         >         > > of the in-tree README.
> >         >         >
> >         >         >
> >         >         > Any recommendations on what would be a good format
> >         to write
> >         >         these "interface"
> >         >         > pages in?
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >         For in-line (i.e. in xen/include/public/*.h) docs of
> >         APIs I
> >         >         played a
> >         >         little bit with integrating kernel-doc into the Xen
> >         build
> >         >         system but it
> >         >         is tied a little too closely to the kernel build
> >         >         infrastructure.
> >         >
> >         >         Doxygen seems like a plausible alternative with life
> >         outside
> >         >         the kernel
> >         >         etc. We actually appear to already have some doxygen
> >         stuff for
> >         >         the
> >         >         pytyhon stuff (judging from the Makefile, I've not
> >         actually
> >         >         noticed the
> >         >         structured code comments anywhere)
> >         >
> >         >         For non-inline docs I think we decided that markdown
> >         would be
> >         >         a good
> >         >         answer.
> >         >
> >         >         Ian.
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >         _______________________________________________
> >         >         Xen-devel mailing list
> >         >         Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> >         >         http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >
> >         > --
> >         > Founder | Director | VP Research
> >         >
> >         > Orion Virtualisation Solutions | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone:
> >         1300 56
> >         > 99 52 | Mobile: 0428 754 846
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Founder | Director | VP Research
> >
> > Orion Virtualisation Solutions | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56
> > 99 52 | Mobile: 0428 754 846
>
>
>


-- 
*
Founder | Director | VP Research
Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99 52
| Mobile: 0428 754 846

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_______________________________________________
Xen-devel mailing list
Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Joseph Glanville]

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I have created a sheet with all of the wiki titles.
The sheet is setup to mark pages as fine, outdated or inbuilt (stuff like
userprofiles that are a part of moinmoin)
You can access it with the link below:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiRyVp8djqV3dEJRdVZaQzZmLVNKTERwMDNGaTlKdkE&hl=en_US

On 29 September 2011 21:35, Joseph Glanville <
joseph.glanville@orionvm.com.au> wrote:

> Yeah MoinMoin is abit frustrating.. I am currently going through the pages
> in the TitleIndex:
> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/TitleIndex
> Marking pages as out-dated as a find them.. maybe it would be best to
> create a google spreadsheet and mark their status in there to ease finding
> what content is good vs bad?
> How does that sound Lars/Ian?
>
> Joseph.
>
>
> On 29 September 2011 21:29, Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@eu.citrix.com>wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 12:24 +0100, Joseph Glanville wrote:
>> > Maybe the wiki frontpage etc needs abit of a restructure to highlight
>> > the newer documentation and try steer people away from old stuff?
>> > I am going to try do some tagging of the wiki pages tonight to mark
>> > what is out of date.
>> > Many of the pages I think just need simplification.. the current wiki
>> > is somewhat of an information overload (which is fine but we shouldn't
>> > bombard new users if we can avoid it)
>>
>> I think Lars (now CC'd) is planning a switch to a new wiki platform
>> since the current one is very long in the tooth and not especially
>> capable. AIUI part of the transfer will involve discarding out of date
>> stuff and better categorisation of correct/up-to-date pages etc.
>>
>> I'm not sure how the timescales for that transition compare with this
>> documentathon though...
>>
>> Ian.
>>
>> > On 29 September 2011 21:01, Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@eu.citrix.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >         On Thu, 2011-09-29 at 11:53 +0100, Joseph Glanville wrote:
>> >         > +1 for Markdown.
>> >         >
>> >         > In terms of making Xen more accessible I think it might be a
>> >         good idea
>> >         > to update/cleanup the distro support page.
>> >         > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/DistributionSupport
>> >         >
>> >         > I can probably do this.
>> >
>> >
>> >         Excellent, it looks like it needs it...
>> >
>> >         > Making it simple for people to get started with Xen on a
>> >         distro they
>> >         > are comfortable with is a good step forward.
>> >
>> >
>> >         Agreed. In fact for many users this is probably the end goal,
>> >         not just a
>> >         step along the way.
>> >
>> >         > I know distro specific guides could turn into a nightmare
>> >         but I am
>> >         > open to writing one for Debian 6 Squeeze,
>> >
>> >
>> >         In cases such as this we should also consider updating the
>> >         distro's wiki
>> >         page. I'm not sure where the canonical guide should live
>> >         (wiki.xen.org
>> >         or wiki.debian.org) but they should certainly cross reference
>> >         each
>> >         other.
>> >
>> > Yeah that's a tricky one, I guess we can start at wiki.xen.org and go
>> > from there.
>> > Seeing as Debian repackages Xen, wiki.debian.org should probably be
>> > the final canonical location.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >         >  there are also a few that exist already for RHEL/CentOS on
>> >         the wiki.
>> >         > This should get easier as more distros update to 3.0+
>> >         kernels that
>> >         > support PVops out of the box...
>> >         >
>> >         > Next would be networking documentation as network-bridge
>> >         script has
>> >         > been deprecated.
>> >         > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenNetworking
>> >         > Once again I think alot of the documentation is going to be
>> >         distro
>> >         > specific to be newbie friendly but atleast a simple ip/brctl
>> >         guide
>> >         > would help.
>> >         >
>> >         > IMO knowing where to start and setting up networking were
>> >         the biggest
>> >         > barriers when I was picking up Xen a few years back.
>> >
>> >
>> >         We now have
>> >         http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/HostConfiguration/Networking
>> >         which
>> >         could do with being made more discoverable.
>> >
>> > That is -much- better and as you said should be much easier to find..
>> >
>> >
>> >         There is also
>> >         http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/HostConfiguration but
>> >         its looking pretty sad right now...
>> >
>> > I can think of some stuff to fill that up.
>> > eg. Howto enable live migration, local VM storage guide possibly
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >         >
>> >         > I am also open to updating the blktap2 pages and README to
>> >         reflect the
>> >         > new tap-ctl userspace utilities and tips on driver
>> >         development.
>> >         >
>> >         > <slightly off-topic but related>
>> >         >
>> >         > With jailtime.org(stacklet) now charging for subscription
>> >         there is
>> >         > nowhere to download pre-built clean Xen compatible images
>> >         free of
>> >         > charge etc.
>> >         > I have pvgrub/pygrub capable images of Ubuntu/Debian/CentOS
>> >         that I am
>> >         > considering hosting for free.
>> >         > Generally new users are confused on how to build new
>> >         paravirt VMs, I
>> >         > think prebuilt images are suboptimal but a good place to
>> >         start for
>> >         > beginners.
>> >
>> >
>> >         There was discussion of Debian providing such a thing on
>> >         debian-deval
>> >         back in late July, I should chase that up really.
>> >
>> >         Cheers,
>> >         Ian.
>> >
>> >
>> >         >
>> >         > Joseph.
>> >         >
>> >         > On 29 September 2011 00:00, Ian Campbell
>> >         <Ian.Campbell@eu.citrix.com>
>> >         > wrote:
>> >         >         On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 14:48 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek
>> >         Wilk
>> >         >         wrote:
>> >         >         > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 02:26:31PM +0100, Ian
>> >         Jackson wrote:
>> >         >         > > Ian Campbell writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] Xen
>> >         document day
>> >         >         (Oct 12 or 26)"):
>> >         >         > > > Since the guest APIs are stable there should
>> >         be
>> >         >         relatively little churn
>> >         >         > > > so perhaps a wiki page (or even series of
>> >         pages) would
>> >         >         be appropriate
>> >         >         > > > for this sort of thing?
>> >         >         > >
>> >         >         > > I want this to be in-tree.  If it's in-tree, we
>> >         can refuse
>> >         >         patches
>> >         >         > > which do not update the documentation.
>> >         >         > >
>> >         >         > > > I think this would be good too and in fact
>> >         even more
>> >         >         important than the
>> >         >         > > > interface documentation. Everyone needs to be
>> >         able to
>> >         >         build Xen to hack
>> >         >         > > > on it but only a subset need to know any
>> >         particular API.
>> >         >         > > >
>> >         >         > > > Also although we recommend that users consume
>> >         Xen via
>> >         >         their distro where
>> >         >         > > > possible such a guide would also help any who
>> >         would
>> >         >         rather build from
>> >         >         > > > scratch (e.g. because we've asked them to "try
>> >         the
>> >         >         latest version" or to
>> >         >         > > > bisect a bug etc).
>> >         >         > >
>> >         >         > > This would be a good candidate for a wiki page,
>> >         backed up
>> >         >         by revisions
>> >         >         > > of the in-tree README.
>> >         >         >
>> >         >         >
>> >         >         > Any recommendations on what would be a good format
>> >         to write
>> >         >         these "interface"
>> >         >         > pages in?
>> >         >
>> >         >
>> >         >         For in-line (i.e. in xen/include/public/*.h) docs of
>> >         APIs I
>> >         >         played a
>> >         >         little bit with integrating kernel-doc into the Xen
>> >         build
>> >         >         system but it
>> >         >         is tied a little too closely to the kernel build
>> >         >         infrastructure.
>> >         >
>> >         >         Doxygen seems like a plausible alternative with life
>> >         outside
>> >         >         the kernel
>> >         >         etc. We actually appear to already have some doxygen
>> >         stuff for
>> >         >         the
>> >         >         pytyhon stuff (judging from the Makefile, I've not
>> >         actually
>> >         >         noticed the
>> >         >         structured code comments anywhere)
>> >         >
>> >         >         For non-inline docs I think we decided that markdown
>> >         would be
>> >         >         a good
>> >         >         answer.
>> >         >
>> >         >         Ian.
>> >         >
>> >         >
>> >         >
>> >         >         _______________________________________________
>> >         >         Xen-devel mailing list
>> >         >         Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
>> >         >         http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
>> >         >
>> >         >
>> >         >
>> >         >
>> >         > --
>> >         > Founder | Director | VP Research
>> >         >
>> >         > Orion Virtualisation Solutions | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone:
>> >         1300 56
>> >         > 99 52 | Mobile: 0428 754 846
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Founder | Director | VP Research
>> >
>> > Orion Virtualisation Solutions | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56
>> > 99 52 | Mobile: 0428 754 846
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *
> Founder | Director | VP Research
> Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99
> 52 | Mobile: 0428 754 846
>



-- 
*
Founder | Director | VP Research
Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99 52
| Mobile: 0428 754 846

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_______________________________________________
Xen-devel mailing list
Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Sander Eikelenboom]

Hello Joseph,

Thursday, September 29, 2011, 12:53:47 PM, you wrote:

> +1 for Markdown.

> In terms of making Xen more accessible I think it might be a good idea to
> update/cleanup the distro support page.
> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/DistributionSupport

> I can probably do this.
> Making it simple for people to get started with Xen on a distro they are
> comfortable with is a good step forward.
> I know distro specific guides could turn into a nightmare but I am open to
> writing one for Debian 6 Squeeze, there are also a few that exist already
> for RHEL/CentOS on the wiki.
> This should get easier as more distros update to 3.0+ kernels that support
> PVops out of the box...

> Next would be networking documentation as network-bridge script has been
> deprecated.
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenNetworking
> Once again I think alot of the documentation is going to be distro specific
> to be newbie friendly but atleast a simple ip/brctl guide would help.

> IMO knowing where to start and setting up networking were the biggest
> barriers when I was picking up Xen a few years back.

> I am also open to updating the blktap2 pages and README to reflect the new
> tap-ctl userspace utilities and tips on driver development.

> <slightly off-topic but related>

> With jailtime.org(stacklet) now charging for subscription there is nowhere
> to download pre-built clean Xen compatible images free of charge etc.
> I have pvgrub/pygrub capable images of Ubuntu/Debian/CentOS that I am
> considering hosting for free.
> Generally new users are confused on how to build new paravirt VMs, I think
> prebuilt images are suboptimal but a good place to start for beginners.

I have previously used the debian xen-tools package, which installs  Ubuntu/Debian/CentOS, although i don't remember exactly from what source.

> Joseph.

> On 29 September 2011 00:00, Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@eu.citrix.com> wrote:

>> On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 14:48 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
>> > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 02:26:31PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> > > Ian Campbell writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] Xen document day (Oct 12 or
>> 26)"):
>> > > > Since the guest APIs are stable there should be relatively little
>> churn
>> > > > so perhaps a wiki page (or even series of pages) would be appropriate
>> > > > for this sort of thing?
>> > >
>> > > I want this to be in-tree.  If it's in-tree, we can refuse patches
>> > > which do not update the documentation.
>> > >
>> > > > I think this would be good too and in fact even more important than
>> the
>> > > > interface documentation. Everyone needs to be able to build Xen to
>> hack
>> > > > on it but only a subset need to know any particular API.
>> > > >
>> > > > Also although we recommend that users consume Xen via their distro
>> where
>> > > > possible such a guide would also help any who would rather build from
>> > > > scratch (e.g. because we've asked them to "try the latest version" or
>> to
>> > > > bisect a bug etc).
>> > >
>> > > This would be a good candidate for a wiki page, backed up by revisions
>> > > of the in-tree README.
>> >
>> >
>> > Any recommendations on what would be a good format to write these
>> "interface"
>> > pages in?
>>
>> For in-line (i.e. in xen/include/public/*.h) docs of APIs I played a
>> little bit with integrating kernel-doc into the Xen build system but it
>> is tied a little too closely to the kernel build infrastructure.
>>
>> Doxygen seems like a plausible alternative with life outside the kernel
>> etc. We actually appear to already have some doxygen stuff for the
>> pytyhon stuff (judging from the Makefile, I've not actually noticed the
>> structured code comments anywhere)
>>
>> For non-inline docs I think we decided that markdown would be a good
>> answer.
>>
>> Ian.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Xen-devel mailing list
>> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
>> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
>>






-- 
Best regards,
 Sander                            mailto:linux@eikelenboom.it

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Joseph Glanville]

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Yep, xen-tools is awesome. Uses debootstrap/rinse but at the same time it
doesn't work that great outside of Debian.
I want to provide PV images that will work on any platform.

On 29 September 2011 21:59, Sander Eikelenboom <linux@eikelenboom.it> wrote:

> Hello Joseph,
>
> Thursday, September 29, 2011, 12:53:47 PM, you wrote:
>
> > +1 for Markdown.
>
> > In terms of making Xen more accessible I think it might be a good idea to
> > update/cleanup the distro support page.
> > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/DistributionSupport
>
> > I can probably do this.
> > Making it simple for people to get started with Xen on a distro they are
> > comfortable with is a good step forward.
> > I know distro specific guides could turn into a nightmare but I am open
> to
> > writing one for Debian 6 Squeeze, there are also a few that exist already
> > for RHEL/CentOS on the wiki.
> > This should get easier as more distros update to 3.0+ kernels that
> support
> > PVops out of the box...
>
> > Next would be networking documentation as network-bridge script has been
> > deprecated.
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenNetworking
> > Once again I think alot of the documentation is going to be distro
> specific
> > to be newbie friendly but atleast a simple ip/brctl guide would help.
>
> > IMO knowing where to start and setting up networking were the biggest
> > barriers when I was picking up Xen a few years back.
>
> > I am also open to updating the blktap2 pages and README to reflect the
> new
> > tap-ctl userspace utilities and tips on driver development.
>
> > <slightly off-topic but related>
>
> > With jailtime.org(stacklet) now charging for subscription there is
> nowhere
> > to download pre-built clean Xen compatible images free of charge etc.
> > I have pvgrub/pygrub capable images of Ubuntu/Debian/CentOS that I am
> > considering hosting for free.
> > Generally new users are confused on how to build new paravirt VMs, I
> think
> > prebuilt images are suboptimal but a good place to start for beginners.
>
> I have previously used the debian xen-tools package, which installs
>  Ubuntu/Debian/CentOS, although i don't remember exactly from what source.
>
> > Joseph.
>
> > On 29 September 2011 00:00, Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@eu.citrix.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 14:48 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> >> > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 02:26:31PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> >> > > Ian Campbell writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] Xen document day (Oct 12 or
> >> 26)"):
> >> > > > Since the guest APIs are stable there should be relatively little
> >> churn
> >> > > > so perhaps a wiki page (or even series of pages) would be
> appropriate
> >> > > > for this sort of thing?
> >> > >
> >> > > I want this to be in-tree.  If it's in-tree, we can refuse patches
> >> > > which do not update the documentation.
> >> > >
> >> > > > I think this would be good too and in fact even more important
> than
> >> the
> >> > > > interface documentation. Everyone needs to be able to build Xen to
> >> hack
> >> > > > on it but only a subset need to know any particular API.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Also although we recommend that users consume Xen via their distro
> >> where
> >> > > > possible such a guide would also help any who would rather build
> from
> >> > > > scratch (e.g. because we've asked them to "try the latest version"
> or
> >> to
> >> > > > bisect a bug etc).
> >> > >
> >> > > This would be a good candidate for a wiki page, backed up by
> revisions
> >> > > of the in-tree README.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Any recommendations on what would be a good format to write these
> >> "interface"
> >> > pages in?
> >>
> >> For in-line (i.e. in xen/include/public/*.h) docs of APIs I played a
> >> little bit with integrating kernel-doc into the Xen build system but it
> >> is tied a little too closely to the kernel build infrastructure.
> >>
> >> Doxygen seems like a plausible alternative with life outside the kernel
> >> etc. We actually appear to already have some doxygen stuff for the
> >> pytyhon stuff (judging from the Makefile, I've not actually noticed the
> >> structured code comments anywhere)
> >>
> >> For non-inline docs I think we decided that markdown would be a good
> >> answer.
> >>
> >> Ian.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Xen-devel mailing list
> >> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> >> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Sander                            mailto:linux@eikelenboom.it
>
>


-- 
*
Founder | Director | VP Research
Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99 52
| Mobile: 0428 754 846

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_______________________________________________
Xen-devel mailing list
Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Ian Campbell]

On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 14:26 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Ian Campbell writes ("Re: [Xen-devel] Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)"):
> > Since the guest APIs are stable there should be relatively little churn
> > so perhaps a wiki page (or even series of pages) would be appropriate
> > for this sort of thing?
> 
> I want this to be in-tree.  If it's in-tree, we can refuse patches
> which do not update the documentation.

I was referring to the example API usage which Daniel was intending to
supply, not the API documentation (which I agree should be in-tree, if
not in-line in the headers), in case that matters.

In some sense mini-os was originally supposed to serve as the in-tree
example on how to use the Xen APIs. If it's not serving that purpose I'm
not sure what would.

> 
> > I think this would be good too and in fact even more important than the
> > interface documentation. Everyone needs to be able to build Xen to hack
> > on it but only a subset need to know any particular API.
> > 
> > Also although we recommend that users consume Xen via their distro where
> > possible such a guide would also help any who would rather build from
> > scratch (e.g. because we've asked them to "try the latest version" or to
> > bisect a bug etc).
> 
> This would be a good candidate for a wiki page, backed up by revisions
> of the in-tree README.
> 
> Ian.

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Pasi Kärkkäinen]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 09:06:18AM -0400, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> Part of what we brainstormed at Xen Hackathon was what we could do make Xen easier.
> 
> And the one thing that seemed to surface up was making the docs better - either
> be the Wiki or the three .pdfs that get created/shipped with Xen.
> 
> One thought was to come up with a Documention Day - where volunteers would try to
> fix up some portion of the documentation that they feel they have
> a good grasp of knowledge off and are willing to change (and also look
> to be incorrect)
> 
> What do you guys think of Oct 12th or Oct 26 as a day for this?
> 
> And then the next question - what page/pdf section interests you?
> 
> http://bits.xensource.com/Xen/docs/user.pdf
> http://www.rites.uic.edu/~solworth/xenInterfaceManual.pdf [the one on Xen.org is an older version]
> 
> Or Wiki pages:
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/
> 
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenDom0Kernels
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenSerialConsole
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenCommonProblems
> 
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consulting
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consultants
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/VpsHostingWithXen
> 
> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenPCIpassthrough
> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/VTdHowTo
> 

Some more related pages:
http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Xen4.0
http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Xen4.1
http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenKernelFeatures
http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenBestPractices
http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenHypervisorBootOptions

Also there's something completely new that we should document:
How to install Xen VMs! which means document all the relevant methods:
boot the native distro installer as PV guest, as HVM guest, xen-tools, virt-install, 
debootstrap, rpmstart, etc..

That's something people ask about very often..

-- Pasi

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Joseph Glanville]

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On 30 September 2011 00:13, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 09:06:18AM -0400, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> > Part of what we brainstormed at Xen Hackathon was what we could do make
> Xen easier.
> >
> > And the one thing that seemed to surface up was making the docs better -
> either
> > be the Wiki or the three .pdfs that get created/shipped with Xen.
> >
> > One thought was to come up with a Documention Day - where volunteers
> would try to
> > fix up some portion of the documentation that they feel they have
> > a good grasp of knowledge off and are willing to change (and also look
> > to be incorrect)
> >
> > What do you guys think of Oct 12th or Oct 26 as a day for this?
> >
> > And then the next question - what page/pdf section interests you?
> >
> > http://bits.xensource.com/Xen/docs/user.pdf
> > http://www.rites.uic.edu/~solworth/xenInterfaceManual.pdf [the one on
> Xen.org is an older version]
> >
> > Or Wiki pages:
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/
> >
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenDom0Kernels
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenSerialConsole
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenCommonProblems
> >
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consulting
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consultants
> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/VpsHostingWithXen
> >
> > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenPCIpassthrough
> > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/VTdHowTo
> >
>
> Some more related pages:
> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Xen4.0
> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Xen4.1
> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenKernelFeatures
> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenBestPractices
> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenHypervisorBootOptions
>
> Also there's something completely new that we should document:
> How to install Xen VMs! which means document all the relevant methods:
> boot the native distro installer as PV guest, as HVM guest, xen-tools,
> virt-install,
> debootstrap, rpmstart, etc..
>
> That's something people ask about very often..
>

Agreed.

After working through a bunch of the pages I think we are going to have to
have a realtime collab session to decide on some way of reorganising
everything into categories.



> -- Pasi
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
>



-- 
*
Founder | Director | VP Research
Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99 52
| Mobile: 0428 754 846

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http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Lars Kurth]

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Let me know, which date you agreed on. We could do a poll.
We should publish on the blog a bit before.
Also, how can I help?
Regards
Lars

On 29/09/2011 15:22, Joseph Glanville wrote:
>
> On 30 September 2011 00:13, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi 
> <mailto:pasik@iki.fi>> wrote:
>
>     On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 09:06:18AM -0400, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
>     > Part of what we brainstormed at Xen Hackathon was what we could
>     do make Xen easier.
>     >
>     > And the one thing that seemed to surface up was making the docs
>     better - either
>     > be the Wiki or the three .pdfs that get created/shipped with Xen.
>     >
>     > One thought was to come up with a Documention Day - where
>     volunteers would try to
>     > fix up some portion of the documentation that they feel they have
>     > a good grasp of knowledge off and are willing to change (and
>     also look
>     > to be incorrect)
>     >
>     > What do you guys think of Oct 12th or Oct 26 as a day for this?
>     >
>     > And then the next question - what page/pdf section interests you?
>     >
>     > http://bits.xensource.com/Xen/docs/user.pdf
>     > http://www.rites.uic.edu/~solworth/xenInterfaceManual.pdf
>     <http://www.rites.uic.edu/%7Esolworth/xenInterfaceManual.pdf> [the
>     one on Xen.org is an older version]
>     >
>     > Or Wiki pages:
>     > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/
>     >
>     > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenDom0Kernels
>     > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenSerialConsole
>     > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
>     > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenCommonProblems
>     >
>     > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consulting
>     > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consultants
>     > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/VpsHostingWithXen
>     >
>     > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenPCIpassthrough
>     > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/VTdHowTo
>     >
>
>     Some more related pages:
>     http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Xen4.0
>     http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Xen4.1
>     http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenKernelFeatures
>     http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenBestPractices
>     http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenHypervisorBootOptions
>
>     Also there's something completely new that we should document:
>     How to install Xen VMs! which means document all the relevant methods:
>     boot the native distro installer as PV guest, as HVM guest,
>     xen-tools, virt-install,
>     debootstrap, rpmstart, etc..
>
>     That's something people ask about very often..
>
> Agreed.
>
> After working through a bunch of the pages I think we are going to 
> have to have a realtime collab session to decide on some way of 
> reorganising everything into categories.
>
>
>
>     -- Pasi
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Xen-devel mailing list
>     Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com <mailto:Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com>
>     http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> */
> Founder | Director | VP Research
> Orion Virtualisation Solutions/* | www.orionvm.com.au 
> <http://www.orionvm.com.au/> | Phone: 1300 56 99 52 | Mobile: 0428 754 846
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel


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_______________________________________________
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http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Joseph Glanville]

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Hi Lars,

What timeline do you think there is for migrating to a new wiki/cleaning out
the cruft?
I am working on a migration strategy (abit more of a full fix rather than a
short term kludge) in this doc here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiRyVp8djqV3dEJRdVZaQzZmLVNKTERwMDNGaTlKdkE&hl=en_US

To achieve this we are probably going to need a way of categorizing and
seperating XCP, Xen.org,etc wiki content.
Once that structure has been decided on I am happy to go about categorizing
all of the current good content and working out what needs to be
written/updated.

Joseph.

On 30 September 2011 21:36, Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xen.org> wrote:

>  Let me know, which date you agreed on. We could do a poll.
> We should publish on the blog a bit before.
> Also, how can I help?
> Regards
> Lars
>
>
> On 29/09/2011 15:22, Joseph Glanville wrote:
>
>
> On 30 September 2011 00:13, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 09:06:18AM -0400, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
>> > Part of what we brainstormed at Xen Hackathon was what we could do make
>> Xen easier.
>> >
>> > And the one thing that seemed to surface up was making the docs better -
>> either
>> > be the Wiki or the three .pdfs that get created/shipped with Xen.
>> >
>> > One thought was to come up with a Documention Day - where volunteers
>> would try to
>> > fix up some portion of the documentation that they feel they have
>> > a good grasp of knowledge off and are willing to change (and also look
>> > to be incorrect)
>> >
>> > What do you guys think of Oct 12th or Oct 26 as a day for this?
>> >
>> > And then the next question - what page/pdf section interests you?
>> >
>> > http://bits.xensource.com/Xen/docs/user.pdf
>> > http://www.rites.uic.edu/~solworth/xenInterfaceManual.pdf [the one on
>> Xen.org is an older version]
>> >
>> > Or Wiki pages:
>> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/
>> >
>> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenDom0Kernels
>> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenSerialConsole
>> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
>> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenCommonProblems
>> >
>> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consulting
>> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consultants
>> > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/VpsHostingWithXen
>> >
>> > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenPCIpassthrough
>> > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/VTdHowTo
>> >
>>
>>  Some more related pages:
>> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Xen4.0
>> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Xen4.1
>> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenKernelFeatures
>> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenBestPractices
>> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenHypervisorBootOptions
>>
>> Also there's something completely new that we should document:
>> How to install Xen VMs! which means document all the relevant methods:
>> boot the native distro installer as PV guest, as HVM guest, xen-tools,
>> virt-install,
>> debootstrap, rpmstart, etc..
>>
>> That's something people ask about very often..
>>
>
> Agreed.
>
> After working through a bunch of the pages I think we are going to have to
> have a realtime collab session to decide on some way of reorganising
> everything into categories.
>
>
>
>> -- Pasi
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Xen-devel mailing list
>> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
>> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *
> Founder | Director | VP Research
>  Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99
> 52 | Mobile: 0428 754 846
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing listXen-devel@lists.xensource.comhttp://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
>
>
>


-- 
*
Founder | Director | VP Research
Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99 52
| Mobile: 0428 754 846

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Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Florian Heigl]

2011/9/30 Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xen.org>:
> Let me know, which date you agreed on. We could do a poll.
> We should publish on the blog a bit before.
> Also, how can I help?

One thing where you could probably help best is setting clear rules
what do document for a release.
i.e. the 4.0 relnotes had build instructions and a lot more, whereas
this is missing in the next release note.

either the build instructions were in the wrong place for 4.0 or 4.1
was released with incomplete info ;)
making a checklist sounds *ahem* in place :)

Flo


-- 
the purpose of libvirt is to provide an abstraction layer hiding all
xen features added since 2006 until they were finally understood and
copied by the kvm devs.

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Pasi Kärkkäinen]

On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 06:33:40PM +0200, Florian Heigl wrote:
> 2011/9/30 Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xen.org>:
> > Let me know, which date you agreed on. We could do a poll.
> > We should publish on the blog a bit before.
> > Also, how can I help?
> 
> One thing where you could probably help best is setting clear rules
> what do document for a release.
> i.e. the 4.0 relnotes had build instructions and a lot more, whereas
> this is missing in the next release note.
> 
> either the build instructions were in the wrong place for 4.0 or 4.1
> was released with incomplete info ;)
> making a checklist sounds *ahem* in place :)
> 

Xen 4.1 releasenotes do state that "check Xen 4.0 releasenotes for build instructions and more info" :)

-- Pasi

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Florian Heigl]

2011/10/1 Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi>:
> On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 06:33:40PM +0200, Florian Heigl wrote:
>> 2011/9/30 Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xen.org>:
>> > Let me know, which date you agreed on. We could do a poll.
>> > We should publish on the blog a bit before.
>> > Also, how can I help?
>>
>> One thing where you could probably help best is setting clear rules
>> what do document for a release.
>> i.e. the 4.0 relnotes had build instructions and a lot more, whereas
>> this is missing in the next release note.
>>
>> either the build instructions were in the wrong place for 4.0 or 4.1
>> was released with incomplete info ;)
>> making a checklist sounds *ahem* in place :)
>>
>
> Xen 4.1 releasenotes do state that "check Xen 4.0 releasenotes for build instructions and more info" :)

You see how well that worked for me :)

Imagine a magazine which has half of the standard topics missing on
it's second issue with a pointer to the last one.
And tbh I guess if anyone had re-tested the 4.0 build instructions
line by line and found them 100% working then he'd probably have
copied them over?

Flo
-- 
the purpose of libvirt is to provide an abstraction layer hiding all
xen features added since 2006 until they were finally understood and
copied by the kvm devs.

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Pasi Kärkkäinen]

On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 08:06:09PM +0200, Florian Heigl wrote:
> 2011/10/1 Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi>:
> > On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 06:33:40PM +0200, Florian Heigl wrote:
> >> 2011/9/30 Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xen.org>:
> >> > Let me know, which date you agreed on. We could do a poll.
> >> > We should publish on the blog a bit before.
> >> > Also, how can I help?
> >>
> >> One thing where you could probably help best is setting clear rules
> >> what do document for a release.
> >> i.e. the 4.0 relnotes had build instructions and a lot more, whereas
> >> this is missing in the next release note.
> >>
> >> either the build instructions were in the wrong place for 4.0 or 4.1
> >> was released with incomplete info ;)
> >> making a checklist sounds *ahem* in place :)
> >>
> >
> > Xen 4.1 releasenotes do state that "check Xen 4.0 releasenotes for build instructions and more info" :)
> 
> You see how well that worked for me :)
> 
> Imagine a magazine which has half of the standard topics missing on
> it's second issue with a pointer to the last one.
> And tbh I guess if anyone had re-tested the 4.0 build instructions
> line by line and found them 100% working then he'd probably have
> copied them over?
> 

Well they ARE working, that's why I didn't copy them when I wrote 4.1 page :-)
But anyway, feel free to do that!

> Flo
> -- 
> the purpose of libvirt is to provide an abstraction layer hiding all
> xen features added since 2006 until they were finally understood and
> copied by the kvm devs.

:)

-- Pasi

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk]

On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 12:36:23PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
> Let me know, which date you agreed on. We could do a poll.

Please do a pool. I posted two dates, but other ones could work as well.

> We should publish on the blog a bit before.

Ok.
> Also, how can I help?

In lots of ways. There is a lot of things that we want to do - but
I don't think we can do _all_ of them. Can you help us determine what
ought to have a higher priority?


> Regards
> Lars
> 
> On 29/09/2011 15:22, Joseph Glanville wrote:
> >
> >On 30 September 2011 00:13, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi
> ><mailto:pasik@iki.fi>> wrote:
> >
> >    On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 09:06:18AM -0400, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> >    > Part of what we brainstormed at Xen Hackathon was what we could
> >    do make Xen easier.
> >    >
> >    > And the one thing that seemed to surface up was making the docs
> >    better - either
> >    > be the Wiki or the three .pdfs that get created/shipped with Xen.
> >    >
> >    > One thought was to come up with a Documention Day - where
> >    volunteers would try to
> >    > fix up some portion of the documentation that they feel they have
> >    > a good grasp of knowledge off and are willing to change (and
> >    also look
> >    > to be incorrect)
> >    >
> >    > What do you guys think of Oct 12th or Oct 26 as a day for this?
> >    >
> >    > And then the next question - what page/pdf section interests you?
> >    >
> >    > http://bits.xensource.com/Xen/docs/user.pdf
> >    > http://www.rites.uic.edu/~solworth/xenInterfaceManual.pdf
> >    <http://www.rites.uic.edu/%7Esolworth/xenInterfaceManual.pdf> [the
> >    one on Xen.org is an older version]
> >    >
> >    > Or Wiki pages:
> >    > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/
> >    >
> >    > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenDom0Kernels
> >    > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenSerialConsole
> >    > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
> >    > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenCommonProblems
> >    >
> >    > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consulting
> >    > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consultants
> >    > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/VpsHostingWithXen
> >    >
> >    > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenPCIpassthrough
> >    > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/VTdHowTo
> >    >
> >
> >    Some more related pages:
> >    http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Xen4.0
> >    http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Xen4.1
> >    http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenKernelFeatures
> >    http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenBestPractices
> >    http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenHypervisorBootOptions
> >
> >    Also there's something completely new that we should document:
> >    How to install Xen VMs! which means document all the relevant methods:
> >    boot the native distro installer as PV guest, as HVM guest,
> >    xen-tools, virt-install,
> >    debootstrap, rpmstart, etc..
> >
> >    That's something people ask about very often..
> >
> >Agreed.
> >
> >After working through a bunch of the pages I think we are going to
> >have to have a realtime collab session to decide on some way of
> >reorganising everything into categories.
> >
> >
> >
> >    -- Pasi
> >
> >
> >    _______________________________________________
> >    Xen-devel mailing list
> >    Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com <mailto:Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com>
> >    http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-- 
> >*/
> >Founder | Director | VP Research
> >Orion Virtualisation Solutions/* | www.orionvm.com.au
> ><http://www.orionvm.com.au/> | Phone: 1300 56 99 52 | Mobile: 0428
> >754 846
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Xen-devel mailing list
> >Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> >http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
> 

> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Lars Kurth]

Looks like me being maxed out means we are too close to Oct 12th now. 
Does anybody object to doing this on the 26th?

How long will the day be? An afternoon? A whole day with rolling 
time-zones?

 > In lots of ways. There is a lot of things that we want to do - but I 
don't think we can do
 > _all_ of them. Can you help us determine what ought to have a higher 
priority?
In a nutshell:
- We should focus on some of the shortfalls we identified at the Hackathon
   (CLI guides, man pages, etc.)?
- We should also do a quick Wiki sanity check (i.e. identify important 
pages, which are wrong)
   I can help guide this

Maybe we can split into two groups
Lars

On 03/10/2011 19:53, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 12:36:23PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
>> Let me know, which date you agreed on. We could do a poll.
> Please do a pool. I posted two dates, but other ones could work as well.
>
>> We should publish on the blog a bit before.
> Ok.
>> Also, how can I help?
> In lots of ways. There is a lot of things that we want to do - but
> I don't think we can do _all_ of them. Can you help us determine what
> ought to have a higher priority?
>
>
>> Regards
>> Lars
>>
>> On 29/09/2011 15:22, Joseph Glanville wrote:
>>> On 30 September 2011 00:13, Pasi Kärkkäinen<pasik@iki.fi
>>> <mailto:pasik@iki.fi>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>     On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 09:06:18AM -0400, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
>>>     >  Part of what we brainstormed at Xen Hackathon was what we could
>>>     do make Xen easier.
>>>     >
>>>     >  And the one thing that seemed to surface up was making the docs
>>>     better - either
>>>     >  be the Wiki or the three .pdfs that get created/shipped with Xen.
>>>     >
>>>     >  One thought was to come up with a Documention Day - where
>>>     volunteers would try to
>>>     >  fix up some portion of the documentation that they feel they have
>>>     >  a good grasp of knowledge off and are willing to change (and
>>>     also look
>>>     >  to be incorrect)
>>>     >
>>>     >  What do you guys think of Oct 12th or Oct 26 as a day for this?
>>>     >
>>>     >  And then the next question - what page/pdf section interests you?
>>>     >
>>>     >  http://bits.xensource.com/Xen/docs/user.pdf
>>>     >  http://www.rites.uic.edu/~solworth/xenInterfaceManual.pdf
>>>     <http://www.rites.uic.edu/%7Esolworth/xenInterfaceManual.pdf>  [the
>>>     one on Xen.org is an older version]
>>>     >
>>>     >  Or Wiki pages:
>>>     >  http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/
>>>     >
>>>     >  http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenDom0Kernels
>>>     >  http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenSerialConsole
>>>     >  http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
>>>     >  http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenCommonProblems
>>>     >
>>>     >  http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consulting
>>>     >  http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Consultants
>>>     >  http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/VpsHostingWithXen
>>>     >
>>>     >  http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenPCIpassthrough
>>>     >  http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/VTdHowTo
>>>     >
>>>
>>>     Some more related pages:
>>>     http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Xen4.0
>>>     http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Xen4.1
>>>     http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenKernelFeatures
>>>     http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenBestPractices
>>>     http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/XenHypervisorBootOptions
>>>
>>>     Also there's something completely new that we should document:
>>>     How to install Xen VMs! which means document all the relevant methods:
>>>     boot the native distro installer as PV guest, as HVM guest,
>>>     xen-tools, virt-install,
>>>     debootstrap, rpmstart, etc..
>>>
>>>     That's something people ask about very often..
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>> After working through a bunch of the pages I think we are going to
>>> have to have a realtime collab session to decide on some way of
>>> reorganising everything into categories.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     -- Pasi
>>>
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     Xen-devel mailing list
>>>     Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com<mailto:Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com>
>>>     http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> */
>>> Founder | Director | VP Research
>>> Orion Virtualisation Solutions/* | www.orionvm.com.au
>>> <http://www.orionvm.com.au/>  | Phone: 1300 56 99 52 | Mobile: 0428
>>> 754 846
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Xen-devel mailing list
>>> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
>>> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
>

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk]

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 12:33:29PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
> Looks like me being maxed out means we are too close to Oct 12th
> now. Does anybody object to doing this on the 26th?

I am OK.
> 
> How long will the day be? An afternoon? A whole day with rolling
> time-zones?

One day. As much as people can do I would think.

> 
> > In lots of ways. There is a lot of things that we want to do - but
> I don't think we can do
> > _all_ of them. Can you help us determine what ought to have a
> higher priority?
> In a nutshell:
> - We should focus on some of the shortfalls we identified at the Hackathon
>   (CLI guides, man pages, etc.)?
> - We should also do a quick Wiki sanity check (i.e. identify
> important pages, which are wrong)
>   I can help guide this
> 
> Maybe we can split into two groups

<nods>

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Lars Kurth]

OK, 26th of October it is: I'll come up with some ideas and share them 
early next week
Lars

On 10/10/2011 17:04, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 12:33:29PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
>> Looks like me being maxed out means we are too close to Oct 12th
>> now. Does anybody object to doing this on the 26th?
> I am OK.
>> How long will the day be? An afternoon? A whole day with rolling
>> time-zones?
> One day. As much as people can do I would think.
>
>>> In lots of ways. There is a lot of things that we want to do - but
>> I don't think we can do
>>> _all_ of them. Can you help us determine what ought to have a
>> higher priority?
>> In a nutshell:
>> - We should focus on some of the shortfalls we identified at the Hackathon
>>    (CLI guides, man pages, etc.)?
>> - We should also do a quick Wiki sanity check (i.e. identify
>> important pages, which are wrong)
>>    I can help guide this
>>
>> Maybe we can split into two groups
> <nods>

Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Joseph Glanville]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1371 bytes --]

Sounds good, 26th works.

Real-time colab on IRC would be nice to get organised maybe #xendocday on
freenode?

Joseph.

On 12 October 2011 03:28, Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xen.org> wrote:

> OK, 26th of October it is: I'll come up with some ideas and share them
> early next week
> Lars
>
>
> On 10/10/2011 17:04, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 12:33:29PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
>>
>>> Looks like me being maxed out means we are too close to Oct 12th
>>> now. Does anybody object to doing this on the 26th?
>>>
>> I am OK.
>>
>>> How long will the day be? An afternoon? A whole day with rolling
>>> time-zones?
>>>
>> One day. As much as people can do I would think.
>>
>>  In lots of ways. There is a lot of things that we want to do - but
>>>>
>>> I don't think we can do
>>>
>>>> _all_ of them. Can you help us determine what ought to have a
>>>>
>>> higher priority?
>>> In a nutshell:
>>> - We should focus on some of the shortfalls we identified at the
>>> Hackathon
>>>   (CLI guides, man pages, etc.)?
>>> - We should also do a quick Wiki sanity check (i.e. identify
>>> important pages, which are wrong)
>>>   I can help guide this
>>>
>>> Maybe we can split into two groups
>>>
>> <nods>
>>
>
>


-- 
*
Founder | Director | VP Research
Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99 52
| Mobile: 0428 754 846

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Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk]

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 05:44:27AM +1100, Joseph Glanville wrote:
> Sounds good, 26th works.
> 
> Real-time colab on IRC would be nice to get organised maybe #xendocday on
> freenode?

Yes, will be on #xendocday.

Re: Re: [Xen-devel] Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Andrew Bobulsky]

Hello folks,

I wish I could say that I have loads of technical Xen knowledge to
contribute, but I unfortunately do not.  However, I've got a soft spot
for well documented F/OSS projects and would like to help if I can.
If your manpower requirements aren't of a strictly technical nature, I
could perform other tasks related to this endeavor, like edit new
docs, test procedures, and so on.

Should I simply hop on IRC in the next few days to see if that would
be the case?

Cheers,
Andrew Bobulsky

On Oct 13, 2011, at 2:12 PM, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk
<konrad.wilk@oracle.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 05:44:27AM +1100, Joseph Glanville wrote:
>> Sounds good, 26th works.
>>
>> Real-time colab on IRC would be nice to get organised maybe #xendocday on
>> freenode?
>
> Yes, will be on #xendocday.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Ian Campbell]

On Fri, 2011-10-14 at 04:43 +0100, Andrew Bobulsky wrote:
> Hello folks,
> 
> I wish I could say that I have loads of technical Xen knowledge to
> contribute, but I unfortunately do not.  However, I've got a soft spot
> for well documented F/OSS projects and would like to help if I can.
> If your manpower requirements aren't of a strictly technical nature, I
> could perform other tasks related to this endeavor, like edit new
> docs, test procedures, and so on.

The more the merrier IMHO, there's certainly scope for not strictly
technical contributions too.

> 
> Should I simply hop on IRC in the next few days to see if that would
> be the case?
> 
> Cheers,
> Andrew Bobulsky
> 
> On Oct 13, 2011, at 2:12 PM, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk
> <konrad.wilk@oracle.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 05:44:27AM +1100, Joseph Glanville wrote:
> >> Sounds good, 26th works.
> >>
> >> Real-time colab on IRC would be nice to get organised maybe #xendocday on
> >> freenode?
> >
> > Yes, will be on #xendocday.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Xen-users mailing list
> > Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> > http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Lars Kurth]

Hi everybody.

We probably lost track of the discussion a little. I started summarizing 
by taking the key points and resources mentioned in this thread and 
added to http://openetherpad.org/TSPGIEOBiS

I am going to spend a bit more time tomorrow doing a bit more research. 
I also installed some wiki plug-ins for attention boxes that should help 
better maintain the pages and make things more manageable once we did 
the first cleanup.

Have a look, add to the etherpad page and I will publish more widely 
(e.g. blog, etc.)

Also, who will create the IRC channel

Lars


On 17/10/2011 14:59, Ian Campbell wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-10-14 at 04:43 +0100, Andrew Bobulsky wrote:
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> I wish I could say that I have loads of technical Xen knowledge to
>> contribute, but I unfortunately do not.  However, I've got a soft spot
>> for well documented F/OSS projects and would like to help if I can.
>> If your manpower requirements aren't of a strictly technical nature, I
>> could perform other tasks related to this endeavor, like edit new
>> docs, test procedures, and so on.
> The more the merrier IMHO, there's certainly scope for not strictly
> technical contributions too.
>
>> Should I simply hop on IRC in the next few days to see if that would
>> be the case?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Andrew Bobulsky
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2011, at 2:12 PM, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk
>> <konrad.wilk@oracle.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 05:44:27AM +1100, Joseph Glanville wrote:
>>>> Sounds good, 26th works.
>>>>
>>>> Real-time colab on IRC would be nice to get organised maybe #xendocday on
>>>> freenode?
>>> Yes, will be on #xendocday.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Xen-users mailing list
>>> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
>>> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
>> _______________________________________________
>> Xen-devel mailing list
>> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
>> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel
>

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Ian Campbell]

> Also, who will create the IRC channel

They just pop onto being if you join them.

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Lars Kurth]

Cool.

I am wondering what people think about archiving vs deleting wiki pages. 
Obviously some pages can be deleted (stuff about events, job listings, 
old TODO lists, etc.).

Others may still be valuable to legacy users. See 
http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Archive_Page : the problem right now is that 
archived pages aren't identifiable and thus confusing. One way of fixing 
this would be to rename the page from FooBar to Archived/FooBar

Views are welcome

Lars

On 17/10/2011 16:17, Ian Campbell wrote:
>> Also, who will create the IRC channel
> They just pop onto being if you join them.
>
>

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 04:37:15PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
> Cool.
> 
> I am wondering what people think about archiving vs deleting wiki
> pages. Obviously some pages can be deleted (stuff about events, job
> listings, old TODO lists, etc.).
> 
> Others may still be valuable to legacy users. See
> http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Archive_Page : the problem right now is
> that archived pages aren't identifiable and thus confusing. One way
> of fixing this would be to rename the page from FooBar to
> Archived/FooBar

Oh, I like that. That is a good idea.
> 
> Views are welcome
> 
> Lars
> 
> On 17/10/2011 16:17, Ian Campbell wrote:
> >>Also, who will create the IRC channel
> >They just pop onto being if you join them.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Ian Campbell]

On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 14:26 +0100, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 04:37:15PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
> > Cool.
> > 
> > I am wondering what people think about archiving vs deleting wiki
> > pages. Obviously some pages can be deleted (stuff about events, job
> > listings, old TODO lists, etc.).
> > 
> > Others may still be valuable to legacy users. See
> > http://wiki.xen.org/xenwiki/Archive_Page : the problem right now is
> > that archived pages aren't identifiable and thus confusing. One way
> > of fixing this would be to rename the page from FooBar to
> > Archived/FooBar
> 
> Oh, I like that. That is a good idea.

It'll break links, but I guess that's a feature.

How close are we to having the new wiki setup -- that would also solve
this issue?

We could just manually add a header/banner ("attention box"?) to each
archived page, that's no harder than renaming it I suspect.

Ian.


> > 
> > Views are welcome
> > 
> > Lars
> > 
> > On 17/10/2011 16:17, Ian Campbell wrote:
> > >>Also, who will create the IRC channel
> > >They just pop onto being if you join them.
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Xen-devel mailing list
> > Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> > http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Lars Kurth]

On 19/10/2011 09:38, Ian Campbell wrote:
> It'll break links, but I guess that's a feature. 
That's easy to fix: rename, check orphaned pages, fix those pages

> How close are we to having the new wiki setup -- that would also solve 
> this issue? 
It wouldn't solve the issue really.

> We could just manually add a header/banner ("attention box"?) to each 
> archived page, that's no harder than renaming it I suspect. Ian.
That is true, but for a user it would still clutter the index

I am running behind publishing the blog post: will post it tomorrow

When do we want to start and end the session? That's the only 
outstanding question.

We also should take bofh's feedback seriously. The points he makes are 
exactly the ones I have identified to, but don't know enough yet to fix it.

Lars

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Joseph Glanville]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4483 bytes --]

I think we should aim to get a meeting of interested parties happening on
IRC before we action on a date or plan.
I just don't want to get started on something that will stall due to lack of
direction.

<rant>

I am happy to contribute my time to do a significant amount of the work that
bofh has requested but to do so effectively I really think we need somewhat
of a clean start.
The current wiki contains too much content that just doesn't belong in the
wiki, job postings, WIP status on projects that have long since died etc.
If we want to present the appearance that Xen is not a schizophrenic project
and has clear direction, leadership and vision then we need actual
documentation that reflects this.

I did get started on a full categorization of pages in the wiki but that
quickly become something that is abit much to do in one session or alone for
that matter.
It also highlighted some severe problems with how the current wiki is used -
in my opinion atleast. It is my view that the official wiki should be
reserved for highly relevant documentation.

I think we need to setup a guided rewrite/refactor of the core documentation
so it resembles something close to this:

Overview (brief introduction, architecture, why xen is different and maybe
abit of xen philosophy)
Getting started guide ( Installation of Xen on Debian - probably the
simplest and easiest way to get started with Xen at the moment, start a
Debian PV guest, start at Windows HVM guest)
Installation guide ( More indepth covering all the core distros and some
more advanced installations including compilation from source and using the
Linux 3.1 kernel, networking options etc)
Administration guide ( This bit requires atlot of discussion, do we
recommend xm still? should we only support xl? If that is the case how to we
recommend stuff like managed domains etc..)
Advanced topics.. stuff like Networking, PCI passthrough etc deserve their
own pages

There also needs to be a developers section, preferably seperate entirely
from the user documentation. If XCP could be sectioned off in some matter
also that would be advantageous - basically to prevent confusion.
The current wiki is poluted with alot of architecture and design info that
isn't of interest to a general user but is still key to understanding Xen
from a developers point of view.

What the primary aim would be is to integrate as much best practices into
these pages rather than having them spread around hundreds of wiki pages and
even more mailing list posts.
To be honest I rarely look to the wiki if I want to know how to do something
with Xen I am unfamilar with.. my first course of action is to search my
archive of xen-devel/xen-users which isn't exactly a good thing.

The biggest issue with this sort of compaction is that Xen is fraught with
choices.. there is just so many different ways of doing things.

I'm not trying to be critical of those that have spent many hours writing
the current documentation, it is appreciated.
I just think we need a really concentrated effort around making the simple
Xen tasks easier before expanding out to include the more complicated stuff.
Alot of us take for granted that we have been using Xen for a long time and
many of these things come so naturally to us - whereas from the outside it
all seems too difficult.

</rant>

That is what I am advocating anyways. First get direction, once we have that
- we can build it. :)

Joseph.

On 20 October 2011 05:13, Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xen.org> wrote:

> On 19/10/2011 09:38, Ian Campbell wrote:
>
>> It'll break links, but I guess that's a feature.
>>
> That's easy to fix: rename, check orphaned pages, fix those pages
>
>
>  How close are we to having the new wiki setup -- that would also solve
>> this issue?
>>
> It wouldn't solve the issue really.
>
>
>  We could just manually add a header/banner ("attention box"?) to each
>> archived page, that's no harder than renaming it I suspect. Ian.
>>
> That is true, but for a user it would still clutter the index
>
> I am running behind publishing the blog post: will post it tomorrow
>
> When do we want to start and end the session? That's the only outstanding
> question.
>
> We also should take bofh's feedback seriously. The points he makes are
> exactly the ones I have identified to, but don't know enough yet to fix it.
>
> Lars
>



-- 
*
Founder | Director | VP Research
Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99 52
| Mobile: 0428 754 846

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Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Lars Kurth]

On 21/10/2011 04:44, Joseph Glanville wrote:
> I think we should aim to get a meeting of interested parties happening 
> on IRC before we action on a date or plan.
> I just don't want to get started on something that will stall due to 
> lack of direction.
>
> <rant>
I am happy to hang out with a few the day before the docs day and 
coordinate a bit
I think there is a lot we can do though

> I am happy to contribute my time to do a significant amount of the 
> work that bofh has requested but to do so effectively I really think 
> we need somewhat of a clean start.
> The current wiki contains too much content that just doesn't belong in 
> the wiki, job postings, WIP status on projects that have long since 
> died etc.
Agreed that some stuff should just be deleted. The key issues is that 
the wiki today has a flat structure.
I am happy to delete stuff like job postings, old minutes, WIP status 
and truly dead stuff and archive plain old stuff (which may still be of 
value to some people.

I think its unfair to say Xen is a schizophrenic project. The issue has 
been that the Wiki has not been managed ever and MoinMoin is inherently 
unmanageable

> I did get started on a full categorization of pages in the wiki but 
> that quickly become something that is abit much to do in one session 
> or alone for that matter.
Agreed and categories don't work well with MoinMoin

> It also highlighted some severe problems with how the current wiki is 
> used - in my opinion atleast. It is my view that the official wiki 
> should be reserved for highly relevant documentation.
I would agree with you, if we were in a perfect world. But we have 
baggage, so to some degree this discussion is moot. I also think that 
this question is handled quite differently by different projects.

> I think we need to setup a guided rewrite/refactor of the core 
> documentation so it resembles something close to this:
>
> Overview (brief introduction, architecture, why xen is different and 
> maybe abit of xen philosophy)
> Getting started guide ( Installation of Xen on Debian - probably the 
> simplest and easiest way to get started with Xen at the moment, start 
> a Debian PV guest, start at Windows HVM guest)
> Installation guide ( More indepth covering all the core distros and 
> some more advanced installations including compilation from source and 
> using the Linux 3.1 kernel, networking options etc)
> Administration guide ( This bit requires atlot of discussion, do we 
> recommend xm still? should we only support xl? If that is the case how 
> to we recommend stuff like managed domains etc..)
> Advanced topics.. stuff like Networking, PCI passthrough etc deserve 
> their own pages
Are you suggesting we restructure the wiki front-page around this?

> There also needs to be a developers section, preferably seperate 
> entirely from the user documentation. If XCP could be sectioned off in 
> some matter also that would be advantageous - basically to prevent 
> confusion.
We do not have that many XCP pages. MoinMoin sucks at sectioning stuff 
off. The only thing which could sort of work is to use 
<namespace>/<pagename> ... we could have XCP/<pagename> and so on. If 
categories worked properly, they could be used too.

> The current wiki is poluted with alot of architecture and design info 
> that isn't of interest to a general user but is still key to 
> understanding Xen from a developers point of view.
Part of the issue is that it is hard for me to identify what is what. If 
I had a good approximation of what is what, I (or others) could just go 
through the motions and re-encode stuff accordingly.

> What the primary aim would be is to integrate as much best practices 
> into these pages rather than having them spread around hundreds of 
> wiki pages and even more mailing list posts.
> To be honest I rarely look to the wiki if I want to know how to do 
> something with Xen I am unfamilar with.. my first course of action is 
> to search my archive of xen-devel/xen-users which isn't exactly a good 
> thing.
>
> The biggest issue with this sort of compaction is that Xen is fraught 
> with choices.. there is just so many different ways of doing things.
>
> I'm not trying to be critical of those that have spent many hours 
> writing the current documentation, it is appreciated.
> I just think we need a really concentrated effort around making the 
> simple Xen tasks easier before expanding out to include the more 
> complicated stuff.
> Alot of us take for granted that we have been using Xen for a long 
> time and many of these things come so naturally to us - whereas from 
> the outside it all seems too difficult.
>
> </rant>
I think what you seem to be saying is that there would be extremely high 
value in having a "Getting started" guide and some other entry level 
documentation (even if just an index page) accessible from the wiki 
front page.

Lars

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Joseph Glanville]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6284 bytes --]

On 22 October 2011 02:28, Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xen.org> wrote:

> On 21/10/2011 04:44, Joseph Glanville wrote:
>
>> I think we should aim to get a meeting of interested parties happening on
>> IRC before we action on a date or plan.
>> I just don't want to get started on something that will stall due to lack
>> of direction.
>>
>> <rant>
>>
> I am happy to hang out with a few the day before the docs day and
> coordinate a bit
> I think there is a lot we can do though
>
>
>  I am happy to contribute my time to do a significant amount of the work
>> that bofh has requested but to do so effectively I really think we need
>> somewhat of a clean start.
>> The current wiki contains too much content that just doesn't belong in the
>> wiki, job postings, WIP status on projects that have long since died etc.
>>
> Agreed that some stuff should just be deleted. The key issues is that the
> wiki today has a flat structure.
> I am happy to delete stuff like job postings, old minutes, WIP status and
> truly dead stuff and archive plain old stuff (which may still be of value to
> some people.
>
> I think its unfair to say Xen is a schizophrenic project. The issue has
> been that the Wiki has not been managed ever and MoinMoin is inherently
> unmanageable


Aye, I didn't mean to say Xen was schizophrenic, infact I think it is
precisely the opposite. My point was that the wiki and current documentation
don't reflect this very wel.

>
>
>  I did get started on a full categorization of pages in the wiki but that
>> quickly become something that is abit much to do in one session or alone for
>> that matter.
>>
> Agreed and categories don't work well with MoinMoin
>
>
>  It also highlighted some severe problems with how the current wiki is used
>> - in my opinion atleast. It is my view that the official wiki should be
>> reserved for highly relevant documentation.
>>
> I would agree with you, if we were in a perfect world. But we have baggage,
> so to some degree this discussion is moot. I also think that this question
> is handled quite differently by different projects.


As I noted, this is just my opinion, its not my place to decide how people
want to use it but if we could have to idea of what should and shouldn't be
in there it makes it easy to then structure the information.

>
>
>  I think we need to setup a guided rewrite/refactor of the core
>> documentation so it resembles something close to this:
>>
>> Overview (brief introduction, architecture, why xen is different and maybe
>> abit of xen philosophy)
>> Getting started guide ( Installation of Xen on Debian - probably the
>> simplest and easiest way to get started with Xen at the moment, start a
>> Debian PV guest, start at Windows HVM guest)
>> Installation guide ( More indepth covering all the core distros and some
>> more advanced installations including compilation from source and using the
>> Linux 3.1 kernel, networking options etc)
>> Administration guide ( This bit requires atlot of discussion, do we
>> recommend xm still? should we only support xl? If that is the case how to we
>> recommend stuff like managed domains etc..)
>> Advanced topics.. stuff like Networking, PCI passthrough etc deserve their
>> own pages
>>
> Are you suggesting we restructure the wiki front-page around this?


Yes, maybe not -exactly- this format but something resembling it would be of
value I think. Guiding people towards the beginners documentation and making
it quite clear there is a reading progression will show much stronger
cohesion.

>
>
>  There also needs to be a developers section, preferably seperate entirely
>> from the user documentation. If XCP could be sectioned off in some matter
>> also that would be advantageous - basically to prevent confusion.
>>
> We do not have that many XCP pages. MoinMoin sucks at sectioning stuff off.
> The only thing which could sort of work is to use <namespace>/<pagename> ...
> we could have XCP/<pagename> and so on. If categories worked properly, they
> could be used too.


Fair enough, that would work well enough for this purpose.


>
>
>  The current wiki is poluted with alot of architecture and design info that
>> isn't of interest to a general user but is still key to understanding Xen
>> from a developers point of view.
>>
> Part of the issue is that it is hard for me to identify what is what. If I
> had a good approximation of what is what, I (or others) could just go
> through the motions and re-encode stuff accordingly.


I have exactly the same problem, I just need to undertand what needs to be
done and where.

>
>
>  What the primary aim would be is to integrate as much best practices into
>> these pages rather than having them spread around hundreds of wiki pages and
>> even more mailing list posts.
>> To be honest I rarely look to the wiki if I want to know how to do
>> something with Xen I am unfamilar with.. my first course of action is to
>> search my archive of xen-devel/xen-users which isn't exactly a good thing.
>>
>> The biggest issue with this sort of compaction is that Xen is fraught with
>> choices.. there is just so many different ways of doing things.
>>
>> I'm not trying to be critical of those that have spent many hours writing
>> the current documentation, it is appreciated.
>> I just think we need a really concentrated effort around making the simple
>> Xen tasks easier before expanding out to include the more complicated stuff.
>> Alot of us take for granted that we have been using Xen for a long time
>> and many of these things come so naturally to us - whereas from the outside
>> it all seems too difficult.
>>
>> </rant>
>>
> I think what you seem to be saying is that there would be extremely high
> value in having a "Getting started" guide and some other entry level
> documentation (even if just an index page) accessible from the wiki front
> page.
>

Precisely, documenting the more advanced features of Xen seems to be
something that we can approach over time. Beginner documentation is
immeadiately lacking and seems to be an easier target that would benefit
more people.

>
> Lars
>

Thanks for reading the rant. :)

Joseph.


-- 
*
Founder | Director | VP Research
Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99 52
| Mobile: 0428 754 846

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Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Lars Kurth]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4096 bytes --]

On 22/10/2011 00:33, Joseph Glanville wrote:
> As I noted, this is just my opinion, its not my place to decide how 
> people want to use it but if we could have to idea of what should and 
> shouldn't be in there it makes it easy to then structure the information.
>
>         I think we need to setup a guided rewrite/refactor of the core
>         documentation so it resembles something close to this:
>
>         Overview (brief introduction, architecture, why xen is
>         different and maybe abit of xen philosophy)
>         Getting started guide ( Installation of Xen on Debian -
>         probably the simplest and easiest way to get started with Xen
>         at the moment, start a Debian PV guest, start at Windows HVM
>         guest)
>         Installation guide ( More indepth covering all the core
>         distros and some more advanced installations including
>         compilation from source and using the Linux 3.1 kernel,
>         networking options etc)
>         Administration guide ( This bit requires atlot of discussion,
>         do we recommend xm still? should we only support xl? If that
>         is the case how to we recommend stuff like managed domains etc..)
>         Advanced topics.. stuff like Networking, PCI passthrough etc
>         deserve their own pages
>
>     Are you suggesting we restructure the wiki front-page around this?
>
>
> Yes, maybe not -exactly- this format but something resembling it would 
> be of value I think. Guiding people towards the beginners 
> documentation and making it quite clear there is a reading progression 
> will show much stronger cohesion.

I think we have two choices:
a) We re-write large sections of the wiki with the purpose of making it 
more accessible
b) We use create methods to highlight existing stuff and focus on 
filling gaps, etc.

I think that b) is more valuable. Here are a few ideas:

Trails: I have come across the idea of wiki trails before. These are 
pages/indexes which lead the reader through a series of articles. The 
key is that these are easily identified and highlighted from the main 
page. E.g. we could use Trails (listing all trails and a page template), 
Trails/XenOverview, Trails/XenGettingStarted, etc. By doing this, we 
group the existing documents, rather than re-writing a lot of stuff and 
just refactoring it. This would make an easier start, and if somebody 
wishes they can always clean up and refactor the documentation which 
makes up a trail.

I had a look around for MoinMoin plug-ins for something which may help 
with trails: not much, but there are a couple of plugins that may help

Being able to create TOCs across sevaleraL wiki pages 
(http://moinmo.in/SteveTindle/DocTools from 
http://moinmo.in/MacroMarket#Release_1.5 using /EnhancedTableOfContents 
<http://moinmo.in/MacroMarket/EnhancedTableOfContents> /SetSection 
<http://moinmo.in/MacroMarket/SetSection> /TocOf 
<http://moinmo.in/MacroMarket/TocOf> )

>     The current wiki is poluted with alot of architecture and design
>     info that isn't of interest to a general user but is still key to
>     understanding Xen from a developers point of view.
>
>     Part of the issue is that it is hard for me to identify what is
>     what. If I had a good approximation of what is what, I (or others)
>     could just go through the motions and re-encode stuff accordingly.
>
>
> I have exactly the same problem, I just need to undertand what needs 
> to be done and where.
I hope I will get some of this out of Wed.

>     I think what you seem to be saying is that there would be
>     extremely high value in having a "Getting started" guide and some
>     other entry level documentation (even if just an index page)
>     accessible from the wiki front page.
>
>
> Precisely, documenting the more advanced features of Xen seems to be 
> something that we can approach over time. Beginner documentation is 
> immeadiately lacking and seems to be an easier target that would 
> benefit more people.
Let's see whether we can get enough structure in place on Wed and make a 
good start

Lars


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Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Joseph Glanville]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4478 bytes --]

Agreed on all counts.

I think you have a very good point in the "trails" concept... the idea of
having an information graph resounds with the goal to make advanced
documentation accessible but not overwhelm newcomers.

The DocTools macros look good.

Joseph.



On 24 October 2011 22:35, Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xen.org> wrote:

>  On 22/10/2011 00:33, Joseph Glanville wrote:
>
>  As I noted, this is just my opinion, its not my place to decide how
> people want to use it but if we could have to idea of what should and
> shouldn't be in there it makes it easy to then structure the information.
>
>   I think we need to setup a guided rewrite/refactor of the core
>>> documentation so it resembles something close to this:
>>>
>>> Overview (brief introduction, architecture, why xen is different and
>>> maybe abit of xen philosophy)
>>> Getting started guide ( Installation of Xen on Debian - probably the
>>> simplest and easiest way to get started with Xen at the moment, start a
>>> Debian PV guest, start at Windows HVM guest)
>>> Installation guide ( More indepth covering all the core distros and some
>>> more advanced installations including compilation from source and using the
>>> Linux 3.1 kernel, networking options etc)
>>> Administration guide ( This bit requires atlot of discussion, do we
>>> recommend xm still? should we only support xl? If that is the case how to we
>>> recommend stuff like managed domains etc..)
>>> Advanced topics.. stuff like Networking, PCI passthrough etc deserve
>>> their own pages
>>>
>>  Are you suggesting we restructure the wiki front-page around this?
>
>
> Yes, maybe not -exactly- this format but something resembling it would be
> of value I think. Guiding people towards the beginners documentation and
> making it quite clear there is a reading progression will show much stronger
> cohesion.
>
>
> I think we have two choices:
> a) We re-write large sections of the wiki with the purpose of making it
> more accessible
> b) We use create methods to highlight existing stuff and focus on filling
> gaps, etc.
>
> I think that b) is more valuable. Here are a few ideas:
>
> Trails: I have come across the idea of wiki trails before. These are
> pages/indexes which lead the reader through a series of articles. The key is
> that these are easily identified and highlighted from the main page. E.g. we
> could use Trails (listing all trails and a page template),
> Trails/XenOverview, Trails/XenGettingStarted, etc. By doing this, we group
> the existing documents, rather than re-writing a lot of stuff and just
> refactoring it. This would make an easier start, and if somebody wishes they
> can always clean up and refactor the documentation which makes up a trail.
>
> I had a look around for MoinMoin plug-ins for something which may help with
> trails: not much, but there are a couple of plugins that may help
>
> Being able to create TOCs across sevaleraL wiki pages (
> http://moinmo.in/SteveTindle/DocTools from
> http://moinmo.in/MacroMarket#Release_1.5 using /EnhancedTableOfContents<http://moinmo.in/MacroMarket/EnhancedTableOfContents>
> /SetSection <http://moinmo.in/MacroMarket/SetSection> /TocOf<http://moinmo.in/MacroMarket/TocOf>)
>
>
>   The current wiki is poluted with alot of architecture and design info
>> that isn't of interest to a general user but is still key to understanding
>> Xen from a developers point of view.
>>
>  Part of the issue is that it is hard for me to identify what is what. If I
>> had a good approximation of what is what, I (or others) could just go
>> through the motions and re-encode stuff accordingly.
>
>
> I have exactly the same problem, I just need to undertand what needs to be
> done and where.
>
> I hope I will get some of this out of Wed.
>
>
>   I think what you seem to be saying is that there would be extremely high
>> value in having a "Getting started" guide and some other entry level
>> documentation (even if just an index page) accessible from the wiki front
>> page.
>>
>
> Precisely, documenting the more advanced features of Xen seems to be
> something that we can approach over time. Beginner documentation is
> immeadiately lacking and seems to be an easier target that would benefit
> more people.
>
> Let's see whether we can get enough structure in place on Wed and make a
> good start
>
> Lars
>
>


-- 
*
Founder | Director | VP Research
Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99 52
| Mobile: 0428 754 846

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Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 04:37:15PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
> Cool.
> 
> I am wondering what people think about archiving vs deleting wiki
> pages. Obviously some pages can be deleted (stuff about events, job
> listings, old TODO lists, etc.).
> 
> Others may still be valuable to legacy users. See
.. snip..
Hey Lars,

I was trying to add to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiRyVp8djqV3dEJRdVZaQzZmLVNKTERwMDNGaTlKdkE&hl=en_US#gid=0

a couple of things but it seems I am not authorized, anyhow these are the changes:

NetBSDdomU merge with How_to_build_NetBSD_DomU_on_Linux
2.6.18-to-2.6.31-and-higher is OK.
InstallationNotes - remove
KnownGoodImages - remove
InstallGuestImage - remove
RealModeArea - archive, or move it to be PPC/RealModeArea
USBCompatibilityList - remove
XenPCIpassthrough - keep, I just updated it
XenPVOPSDRM - keep, just updated it
XenSerialConsole - keep, I just updated it
XenPVSCSI - keep
XenUSBPassthrough - keep, just updated it
XenParavirtOps - keep, just updated it.
XenOnUbuntu64 - remove

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Lars Kurth]

On 26/10/2011 20:55, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 04:37:15PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
>> Cool.
>>
>> I am wondering what people think about archiving vs deleting wiki
>> pages. Obviously some pages can be deleted (stuff about events, job
>> listings, old TODO lists, etc.).
>>
>> Others may still be valuable to legacy users. See
> .. snip..
> Hey Lars,
>
> I was trying to add to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiRyVp8djqV3dEJRdVZaQzZmLVNKTERwMDNGaTlKdkE&hl=en_US#gid=0
>
> a couple of things but it seems I am not authorized, anyhow these are the changes:
>
> NetBSDdomU merge with How_to_build_NetBSD_DomU_on_Linux
> 2.6.18-to-2.6.31-and-higher is OK.
> InstallationNotes - remove
> KnownGoodImages - remove
> InstallGuestImage - remove
> RealModeArea - archive, or move it to be PPC/RealModeArea
> USBCompatibilityList - remove
> XenPCIpassthrough - keep, I just updated it
> XenPVOPSDRM - keep, just updated it
> XenSerialConsole - keep, I just updated it
> XenPVSCSI - keep
> XenUSBPassthrough - keep, just updated it
> XenParavirtOps - keep, just updated it.
> XenOnUbuntu64 - remove
Odd: you should have write access like anybody else. Anyway, I applied 
your changes.

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Joseph Glanville]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3073 bytes --]

Great work on categorizing/marking all the pages everyone!

The path is clear now to write some really good documentation. :)

I have started work on a Beginners Guide which is effectively a step by
step guide to a functional install on Debian Sqeeze.
Currently this is the most frictionless and least "magic" way to get Xen up
and running and forms a good basis to experiment with more advanced Xen
features.
The aim of the guide is to introduce all key concepts, get people playing
with Xen in a environment that is relatively fully featured but not too
daunting to setup. It covers everything from basic virtualisation, storage
and networking through to starting, stopping guests and getting Windows
running ontop of Xen.

You can see my progress up on this Google doc:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q9odKP8Id26J8kHCAFt8aD5krXdUiZnZGw1Q-LGWCJg/edit
Will format for wiki and publish when it is done.

If anyone would like to contribute feel free to contact me,
comments/suggestions are more than welcome.

Moving on from this I will write a more advanced Debian specific guide that
delves into setting up complex networking, guest isolation techniques,
storage virtualisation and all those goodies.

Very excited to see all the awesome things coming out of this and
definitely recommend we have a monthly thing where we get together and
decide on how we can improve documentation.
Once a direction has been established it's easy to sit down and get stuff
done.

Joseph.



On 27 October 2011 21:30, Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xen.org> wrote:

> On 26/10/2011 20:55, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 04:37:15PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
>>
>>> Cool.
>>>
>>> I am wondering what people think about archiving vs deleting wiki
>>> pages. Obviously some pages can be deleted (stuff about events, job
>>> listings, old TODO lists, etc.).
>>>
>>> Others may still be valuable to legacy users. See
>>>
>> .. snip..
>> Hey Lars,
>>
>> I was trying to add to https://docs.google.com/**spreadsheet/ccc?key=**
>> 0AiRyVp8djqV3dEJRdVZaQzZmLVNKT**ERwMDNGaTlKdkE&hl=en_US#gid=0<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiRyVp8djqV3dEJRdVZaQzZmLVNKTERwMDNGaTlKdkE&hl=en_US#gid=0>
>>
>> a couple of things but it seems I am not authorized, anyhow these are the
>> changes:
>>
>> NetBSDdomU merge with How_to_build_NetBSD_DomU_on_**Linux
>> 2.6.18-to-2.6.31-and-higher is OK.
>> InstallationNotes - remove
>> KnownGoodImages - remove
>> InstallGuestImage - remove
>> RealModeArea - archive, or move it to be PPC/RealModeArea
>> USBCompatibilityList - remove
>> XenPCIpassthrough - keep, I just updated it
>> XenPVOPSDRM - keep, just updated it
>> XenSerialConsole - keep, I just updated it
>> XenPVSCSI - keep
>> XenUSBPassthrough - keep, just updated it
>> XenParavirtOps - keep, just updated it.
>> XenOnUbuntu64 - remove
>>
> Odd: you should have write access like anybody else. Anyway, I applied
> your changes.
>



-- 
*
Founder | Director | VP Research
Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99 52
| Mobile: 0428 754 846

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Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Lars Kurth]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5317 bytes --]

Joseph,

thanks for doing this. There should be some stuff on the Wiki to build 
on. There are also some blog posts/blogs, which may have useful info:
- 
http://bderzhavets.wordpress.com/2011/10/27/set-up-oneiric-pv-domu-at-xen-4-1-2-oneiric-dom0-3-1-0-030100-generic/
- http://grantmcwilliams.com/tech/virtualization/540-updated-xen-howtos
- http://www.xen-support.com/

I managed to categorize most pages according to User / Dev / User 
Beginner (there are a few where I didn't get round to it though). I 
think another great thing for Beginners would be a new LiveCD: but 
nobody so far is willing to step up.

You should know that in the next few weeks we will be migrating to 
MediaWiki and we will make the existing Wiki RO (the plan is to have an 
html instance with the MoinMoin markup stored somewhere publicly or 
converted MoinMoin=>MediaWiki stored somewhere). So writing a Beginners 
Guide first is a good idea.

I am also thinking of starting the MediaWiki with very strong 
categorisation (i.e. every page must have a category). Categories would be:

  * By audience: User, Developer, Beginner, Community, Vendor
  * By lifetime:
      o Transient: limited lifespan
      o Archived: saved for history
  * By project: Xen, XCP, PVOPS, XenARM, OCaml
  * By document type:
      o FAQ, HowTo, Tutorial, Overview
      o Design
      o Dev Process
      o Compatibility
      o Project: page related to a Xen project
      o Glossary : there is a specific way to do this in MediaWiki
      o Index : may not be needed if we say Index=Category

There may be a few more. Will need to work on these a little more. It 
may also mean that the MediWiki instance is set up that pages must have 
a category and that only a subset of users can create new ones. 
Otherwise we get into the same mess again.

Lars

On 27/10/2011 21:23, Joseph Glanville wrote:
> Great work on categorizing/marking all the pages everyone!
>
> The path is clear now to write some really good documentation. :)
>
> I have started work on a Beginners Guide which is effectively a step 
> by step guide to a functional install on Debian Sqeeze.
> Currently this is the most frictionless and least "magic" way to get 
> Xen up and running and forms a good basis to experiment with more 
> advanced Xen features.
> The aim of the guide is to introduce all key concepts, get people 
> playing with Xen in a environment that is relatively fully featured 
> but not too daunting to setup. It covers everything from basic 
> virtualisation, storage and networking through to starting, stopping 
> guests and getting Windows running ontop of Xen.
>
> You can see my progress up on this Google doc: 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q9odKP8Id26J8kHCAFt8aD5krXdUiZnZGw1Q-LGWCJg/edit
> Will format for wiki and publish when it is done.
>
> If anyone would like to contribute feel free to contact me, 
> comments/suggestions are more than welcome.
>
> Moving on from this I will write a more advanced Debian specific guide 
> that delves into setting up complex networking, guest isolation 
> techniques, storage virtualisation and all those goodies.
>
> Very excited to see all the awesome things coming out of this and 
> definitely recommend we have a monthly thing where we get together and 
> decide on how we can improve documentation.
> Once a direction has been established it's easy to sit down and get 
> stuff done.
>
> Joseph.
>
>
>
> On 27 October 2011 21:30, Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xen.org 
> <mailto:lars.kurth@xen.org>> wrote:
>
>     On 26/10/2011 20:55, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
>
>         On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 04:37:15PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
>
>             Cool.
>
>             I am wondering what people think about archiving vs
>             deleting wiki
>             pages. Obviously some pages can be deleted (stuff about
>             events, job
>             listings, old TODO lists, etc.).
>
>             Others may still be valuable to legacy users. See
>
>         .. snip..
>         Hey Lars,
>
>         I was trying to add to
>         https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiRyVp8djqV3dEJRdVZaQzZmLVNKTERwMDNGaTlKdkE&hl=en_US#gid=0
>         <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiRyVp8djqV3dEJRdVZaQzZmLVNKTERwMDNGaTlKdkE&hl=en_US#gid=0>
>
>         a couple of things but it seems I am not authorized, anyhow
>         these are the changes:
>
>         NetBSDdomU merge with How_to_build_NetBSD_DomU_on_Linux
>         2.6.18-to-2.6.31-and-higher is OK.
>         InstallationNotes - remove
>         KnownGoodImages - remove
>         InstallGuestImage - remove
>         RealModeArea - archive, or move it to be PPC/RealModeArea
>         USBCompatibilityList - remove
>         XenPCIpassthrough - keep, I just updated it
>         XenPVOPSDRM - keep, just updated it
>         XenSerialConsole - keep, I just updated it
>         XenPVSCSI - keep
>         XenUSBPassthrough - keep, just updated it
>         XenParavirtOps - keep, just updated it.
>         XenOnUbuntu64 - remove
>
>     Odd: you should have write access like anybody else. Anyway, I
>     applied your changes.
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> */
> Founder | Director | VP Research
> Orion Virtualisation Solutions/* | www.orionvm.com.au 
> <http://www.orionvm.com.au/> | Phone: 1300 56 99 52 | Mobile: 0428 754 846


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Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Joseph Glanville]

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Those categories look good, does MediaWiki have a tagging concept that
would allow pages to be members of multiple categories?

How would a Debian Xen LiveCD built as a companion to the beginners guide
sound?

I will think about the LiveCD after I get this guide finished, my bandwidth
is somewhat constrained over the coming weeks so I'm hesitant to say I will
do it without knowing I can put time aside.

Joseph.


On 28 October 2011 23:47, Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xen.org> wrote:

>  Joseph,
>
> thanks for doing this. There should be some stuff on the Wiki to build on.
> There are also some blog posts/blogs, which may have useful info:
> -
> http://bderzhavets.wordpress.com/2011/10/27/set-up-oneiric-pv-domu-at-xen-4-1-2-oneiric-dom0-3-1-0-030100-generic/
> - http://grantmcwilliams.com/tech/virtualization/540-updated-xen-howtos
> - http://www.xen-support.com/
>
> I managed to categorize most pages according to User / Dev / User Beginner
> (there are a few where I didn't get round to it though). I think another
> great thing for Beginners would be a new LiveCD: but nobody so far is
> willing to step up.
>
> You should know that in the next few weeks we will be migrating to
> MediaWiki and we will make the existing Wiki RO (the plan is to have an
> html instance with the MoinMoin markup stored somewhere publicly or
> converted MoinMoin=>MediaWiki stored somewhere). So writing a Beginners
> Guide first is a good idea.
>
> I am also thinking of starting the MediaWiki with very strong
> categorisation (i.e. every page must have a category). Categories would be:
>
>    - By audience: User, Developer, Beginner, Community, Vendor
>    - By lifetime:
>     - Transient: limited lifespan
>        - Archived: saved for history
>        - By project: Xen, XCP, PVOPS, XenARM, OCaml
>     - By document type:
>     - FAQ, HowTo, Tutorial, Overview
>       - Design
>       - Dev Process
>        - Compatibility
>        - Project: page related to a Xen project
>       - Glossary : there is a specific way to do this in MediaWiki
>        - Index : may not be needed if we say Index=Category
>
> There may be a few more. Will need to work on these a little more. It may
> also mean that the MediWiki instance is set up that pages must have a
> category and that only a subset of users can create new ones. Otherwise we
> get into the same mess again.
>
> Lars
>
>
> On 27/10/2011 21:23, Joseph Glanville wrote:
>
> Great work on categorizing/marking all the pages everyone!
>
> The path is clear now to write some really good documentation. :)
>
> I have started work on a Beginners Guide which is effectively a step by
> step guide to a functional install on Debian Sqeeze.
> Currently this is the most frictionless and least "magic" way to get Xen
> up and running and forms a good basis to experiment with more advanced Xen
> features.
> The aim of the guide is to introduce all key concepts, get people playing
> with Xen in a environment that is relatively fully featured but not too
> daunting to setup. It covers everything from basic virtualisation, storage
> and networking through to starting, stopping guests and getting Windows
> running ontop of Xen.
>
> You can see my progress up on this Google doc:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q9odKP8Id26J8kHCAFt8aD5krXdUiZnZGw1Q-LGWCJg/edit
> Will format for wiki and publish when it is done.
>
> If anyone would like to contribute feel free to contact me,
> comments/suggestions are more than welcome.
>
> Moving on from this I will write a more advanced Debian specific guide
> that delves into setting up complex networking, guest isolation techniques,
> storage virtualisation and all those goodies.
>
> Very excited to see all the awesome things coming out of this and
> definitely recommend we have a monthly thing where we get together and
> decide on how we can improve documentation.
> Once a direction has been established it's easy to sit down and get stuff
> done.
>
> Joseph.
>
>
>
> On 27 October 2011 21:30, Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xen.org> wrote:
>
>>  On 26/10/2011 20:55, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 04:37:15PM +0100, Lars Kurth wrote:
>>>
>>>> Cool.
>>>>
>>>> I am wondering what people think about archiving vs deleting wiki
>>>> pages. Obviously some pages can be deleted (stuff about events, job
>>>> listings, old TODO lists, etc.).
>>>>
>>>> Others may still be valuable to legacy users. See
>>>>
>>> .. snip..
>>> Hey Lars,
>>>
>>> I was trying to add to
>>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiRyVp8djqV3dEJRdVZaQzZmLVNKTERwMDNGaTlKdkE&hl=en_US#gid=0
>>>
>>> a couple of things but it seems I am not authorized, anyhow these are
>>> the changes:
>>>
>>> NetBSDdomU merge with How_to_build_NetBSD_DomU_on_Linux
>>> 2.6.18-to-2.6.31-and-higher is OK.
>>> InstallationNotes - remove
>>> KnownGoodImages - remove
>>> InstallGuestImage - remove
>>> RealModeArea - archive, or move it to be PPC/RealModeArea
>>> USBCompatibilityList - remove
>>> XenPCIpassthrough - keep, I just updated it
>>> XenPVOPSDRM - keep, just updated it
>>> XenSerialConsole - keep, I just updated it
>>> XenPVSCSI - keep
>>> XenUSBPassthrough - keep, just updated it
>>> XenParavirtOps - keep, just updated it.
>>> XenOnUbuntu64 - remove
>>>
>>  Odd: you should have write access like anybody else. Anyway, I applied
>> your changes.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *
> Founder | Director | VP Research
>  Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99
> 52 | Mobile: 0428 754 846
>
>
>


-- 
*
Founder | Director | VP Research
Orion Virtualisation Solutions* | www.orionvm.com.au | Phone: 1300 56 99 52
| Mobile: 0428 754 846

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Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Florian Heigl]

Hi Lars,

2011/10/28 Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xen.org>:
> There may be a few more. Will need to work on these a little more. It may
> also mean that the MediWiki instance is set up that pages must have a
> category and that only a subset of users can create new ones. Otherwise we
> get into the same mess again.

I think the main issues (mess) with the old wiki were:
- not being able to contact someone if information is incorrect / outdated
- noone looking into pages that had become outdated
- not looking for pages that might be outdated
- most of the pages being immutable so you couldn't even fix stuff.

So if we limit edit rights to certain user groups that is not a
problem, as long as the groups are big enough to maintain the
categories.
Also it might be helpful to use a release mechanism - if any
registered user can create pages, but they stay invisible until
approval then this would save a lot of time for the regular authors
and still keep up quality. (Thats working really well in my
experience)

Greetings
Florian

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Ian Campbell]

On Sun, 2011-10-30 at 20:58 +0000, Florian Heigl wrote:
> - most of the pages being immutable so you couldn't even fix stuff. 

This one is a protective measure against spammers (which have been a big
problem in the past). I sure hope media wiki has some better mechanisms
than requiring every account to be manually authorised as an editor (I'm
sure it must do!). It's a big barrier to "drive by fixups" as well as
presenting an initial barrier which even longer term contributors have
to cross.

Ian.

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Fajar A. Nugraha]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@citrix.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-10-30 at 20:58 +0000, Florian Heigl wrote:
>> - most of the pages being immutable so you couldn't even fix stuff.
>
> This one is a protective measure against spammers (which have been a big
> problem in the past). I sure hope media wiki has some better mechanisms
> than requiring every account to be manually authorised as an editor (I'm
> sure it must do!). It's a big barrier to "drive by fixups" as well as
> presenting an initial barrier which even longer term contributors have
> to cross.

For comparison purposes, the approach taken by wiki.freeradius.org
looks good: http://wiki.freeradius.org/New%20Wiki

It uses Github, Facebook, or Twitter account for login, trusting those
providers to filter-out spammers to a certain degree.

-- 
Fajar

Re: [Xen-users] Re: Xen document day (Oct 12 or 26)

[Lars Kurth]

Note that mediawiki allows pages to be in several categories. Check out 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Categories

>  I think the main issues (mess) with the old wiki were:
>  - not being able to contact someone if information is incorrect / outdated
We would need category and page owners for this. I will have to think about this.

>  - noone looking into pages that had become outdated
Agreed. I think we also faced the issue that we didn't know what was outdated. That makes fixing it a harder problem

>  - not looking for pages that might be outdated
Categories and attention boxes should help

>  - most of the pages being immutable so you couldn't even fix stuff.
That is a MoinMoin feature (which should be resolved with MediaWiki). The MoinMoin spamming protection is extremely primitive.

>  So if we limit edit rights to certain user groups that is not a
>  problem, as long as the groups are big enough to maintain the
>  categories.
MediaWiki has quite fine grained user control. I will have to think about how to set this up, but my gut feel is we should have:
- Admins
- Editors (get notified when people make changes, owners of categories)
- Authors (anybody with an account)

>  Also it might be helpful to use a release mechanism - if any
>  registered user can create pages, but they stay invisible until
>  approval then this would save a lot of time for the regular authors
>  and still keep up quality. (Thats working really well in my
>  experience)
I think that is not advisable. I rather go for the WikiPedia approach, where wrong changes are reverted by editors. I think we should try with an open model and make it more restrictive it the open model doesn't work

Regards
Lars


On 30/10/2011 20:58, Florian Heigl wrote:
> Hi Lars,
>
> 2011/10/28 Lars Kurth<lars.kurth@xen.org>:
>> There may be a few more. Will need to work on these a little more. It may
>> also mean that the MediWiki instance is set up that pages must have a
>> category and that only a subset of users can create new ones. Otherwise we
>> get into the same mess again.
> I think the main issues (mess) with the old wiki were:
> - not being able to contact someone if information is incorrect / outdated
> - noone looking into pages that had become outdated
> - not looking for pages that might be outdated
> - most of the pages being immutable so you couldn't even fix stuff.
>
> So if we limit edit rights to certain user groups that is not a
> problem, as long as the groups are big enough to maintain the
> categories.
> Also it might be helpful to use a release mechanism - if any
> registered user can create pages, but they stay invisible until
> approval then this would save a lot of time for the regular authors
> and still keep up quality. (Thats working really well in my
> experience)
>
> Greetings
> Florian