Re: [PATCH v2 bpf 1/5] net: ethtool: add xdp properties flag set - Toke Høiland-Jørgensen

From: "Toke Høiland-Jørgensen" <toke@redhat.com>
To: Marek Majtyka <alardam@gmail.com>,
	Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>
Cc: "Jakub Kicinski" <kuba@kernel.org>,
	"Saeed Mahameed" <saeed@kernel.org>,
	"David Ahern" <dsahern@gmail.com>,
	"Maciej Fijalkowski" <maciej.fijalkowski@intel.com>,
	"John Fastabend" <john.fastabend@gmail.com>,
	"Jesper Dangaard Brouer" <jbrouer@redhat.com>,
	"Daniel Borkmann" <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	"Maciej Fijalkowski" <maciejromanfijalkowski@gmail.com>,
	"Björn Töpel" <bjorn.topel@intel.com>,
	"Andrii Nakryiko" <andrii.nakryiko@gmail.com>,
	"Jonathan Lemon" <jonathan.lemon@gmail.com>,
	"Alexei Starovoitov" <ast@kernel.org>,
	"Network Development" <netdev@vger.kernel.org>,
	"David S. Miller" <davem@davemloft.net>,
	"Jesper Dangaard Brouer" <hawk@kernel.org>,
	bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
	intel-wired-lan <intel-wired-lan@lists.osuosl.org>,
	"Karlsson, Magnus" <magnus.karlsson@intel.com>,
	"Jeff Kirsher" <jeffrey.t.kirsher@intel.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 bpf 1/5] net: ethtool: add xdp properties flag set
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 15:30:07 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <8735xwaxw0.fsf@toke.dk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAAOQfrHeqKMhZbJoHrdtOtekucuO7K4ASMwT=fS3WTx1XyhjTA@mail.gmail.com>

Marek Majtyka <alardam@gmail.com> writes:

> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 3:05 AM Alexei Starovoitov
> <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 5:26 PM Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Perhaps I had seen one too many vendor incompatibility to trust that
>> > adding a driver API without a validation suite will result in something
>> > usable in production settings.
>>
>> I agree with Jakub. I don't see how extra ethtool reporting will help.
>> Anyone who wants to know whether eth0 supports XDP_REDIRECT can already do so:
>> ethtool -S eth0 | grep xdp_redirect
>
> Doing things right can never be treated as an addition. It is the
> other way around. Option -S is for statistics and additionally it can
> show something (AFAIR there wasn't such counter xdp_redirect, it must
> be something new, thanks for the info). But  nevertheless it cannot
> cover all needs IMO.
>
> Some questions worth to consider:
> Is this extra reporting function of statistics clearly documented in
> ethtool? Is this going to be clearly documented? Would it be easier
> for users/admins to find it?
> What about zero copy? Can it be available via statistics, too?
> What about drivers XDP transmit locking flag (latest request from Jesper)?

There is no way the statistics is enough. And saying "just grep for
xdp_redirect in ethtool -S" is bordering on active hostility towards
users.

We need drivers to export explicit features so we can do things like:

- Explicitly reject attaching a program that tries to do xdp_redirect on
  an interface that doesn't support it.

- Prevent devices that don't implement ndo_xdp_xmit() from being
  inserted into a devmap (oh, and this is on thing you can't know at all
  from the statistics, BTW).

- Expose the features in a machine-readable format (like the ethtool
  flags in your patch) so applications can discover in a reliable way
  what is available and do proper fallback if features are missing.

I can accept that we need some kind of conformance test to define what
each flag means (which would be kinda like a selftest for the feature
flags), but we definitely need the feature flags themselves!

-Toke