Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Christoph Hellwig]

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 10:56:31PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
> In my opinion, proper way should be to implement exFAT support into
> existing fs/fat/ code instead of replacing whole vfat/msdosfs by this
> new (now staging) fat implementation.
> 
> In linux kernel we really do not need two different implementation of
> VFAT32.

Not only not useful, but having another one is actively harmful, as
people might actually accidentally used it for classic fat.

But what I'm really annoyed at is this whole culture of just dumping
some crap into staging and hoping it'll sort itself out.  Which it
won't.  We'll need a dedidcated developer spending some time on it
and just get it into shape, and having it in staging does not help
with that at all - it will get various random cleanup that could
be trivially scripted, but that is rarely the main issue with any
codebase.
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Pali Rohár]

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On Friday 30 August 2019 08:40:06 Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 10:56:31PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
> > In my opinion, proper way should be to implement exFAT support into
> > existing fs/fat/ code instead of replacing whole vfat/msdosfs by this
> > new (now staging) fat implementation.
> > 
> > In linux kernel we really do not need two different implementation of
> > VFAT32.
> 
> Not only not useful, but having another one is actively harmful, as
> people might actually accidentally used it for classic fat.
> 
> But what I'm really annoyed at is this whole culture of just dumping
> some crap into staging and hoping it'll sort itself out.  Which it
> won't.  We'll need a dedidcated developer spending some time on it
> and just get it into shape, and having it in staging does not help
> with that at all - it will get various random cleanup that could
> be trivially scripted, but that is rarely the main issue with any
> codebase.

Exactly. Somebody should take this code and work on it. Otherwise we can
say it is dead code and would happen same thing as with other staging
drivers -- ready to be removed.

-- 
Pali Rohár
pali.rohar@gmail.com

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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Pali Rohár]

On Friday 30 August 2019 09:56:47 Pali Rohár wrote:
> On Thursday 29 August 2019 19:35:06 Sasha Levin wrote:
> > With regards to missing specs/docs/whatever - our main concern with this
> > release was that we want full interoperability, which is why the spec
> > was made public as-is without modifications from what was used
> > internally. There's no "secret sauce" that Microsoft is hiding here.
> 
> Ok, if it was just drop of "current version" of documentation then it
> makes sense.
> 
> > How about we give this spec/code time to get soaked and reviewed for a
> > bit, and if folks still feel (in a month or so?) that there are missing
> > bits of information related to exfat, I'll be happy to go back and try
> > to get them out as well.

Hello Sasha!

Now one month passed, so do you have some information when missing parts
of documentation like TexFAT would be released to public?

> Basically external references in that released exFAT specification are
> unknown / not released yet. Like TexFAT. So if you have an input in MS
> could you forward request about these missing bits?

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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Sasha Levin]

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 04:03:53PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
>On Friday 30 August 2019 09:56:47 Pali Rohár wrote:
>> On Thursday 29 August 2019 19:35:06 Sasha Levin wrote:
>> > With regards to missing specs/docs/whatever - our main concern with this
>> > release was that we want full interoperability, which is why the spec
>> > was made public as-is without modifications from what was used
>> > internally. There's no "secret sauce" that Microsoft is hiding here.
>>
>> Ok, if it was just drop of "current version" of documentation then it
>> makes sense.
>>
>> > How about we give this spec/code time to get soaked and reviewed for a
>> > bit, and if folks still feel (in a month or so?) that there are missing
>> > bits of information related to exfat, I'll be happy to go back and try
>> > to get them out as well.
>
>Hello Sasha!
>
>Now one month passed, so do you have some information when missing parts
>of documentation like TexFAT would be released to public?

Sure, I'll see if I can get an approval to open it up.

Can I assume you will be implementing TexFAT support once the spec is
available?

-- 
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Sasha
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Pali Rohár]

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On Wednesday 16 October 2019 10:31:13 Sasha Levin wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 04:03:53PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
> > On Friday 30 August 2019 09:56:47 Pali Rohár wrote:
> > > On Thursday 29 August 2019 19:35:06 Sasha Levin wrote:
> > > > With regards to missing specs/docs/whatever - our main concern with this
> > > > release was that we want full interoperability, which is why the spec
> > > > was made public as-is without modifications from what was used
> > > > internally. There's no "secret sauce" that Microsoft is hiding here.
> > > 
> > > Ok, if it was just drop of "current version" of documentation then it
> > > makes sense.
> > > 
> > > > How about we give this spec/code time to get soaked and reviewed for a
> > > > bit, and if folks still feel (in a month or so?) that there are missing
> > > > bits of information related to exfat, I'll be happy to go back and try
> > > > to get them out as well.
> > 
> > Hello Sasha!
> > 
> > Now one month passed, so do you have some information when missing parts
> > of documentation like TexFAT would be released to public?
> 
> Sure, I'll see if I can get an approval to open it up.

Ok!

> Can I assume you will be implementing TexFAT support once the spec is
> available?

I cannot promise that I would implement something which I do not know
how is working... It depends on how complicated TexFAT is and also how
future exfat support in kernel would look like.

But I'm interesting in implementing it.

-- 
Pali Rohár
pali.rohar@gmail.com

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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Sasha Levin]

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:03:49PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
>On Wednesday 16 October 2019 10:31:13 Sasha Levin wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 04:03:53PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
>> > On Friday 30 August 2019 09:56:47 Pali Rohár wrote:
>> > > On Thursday 29 August 2019 19:35:06 Sasha Levin wrote:
>> > > > With regards to missing specs/docs/whatever - our main concern with this
>> > > > release was that we want full interoperability, which is why the spec
>> > > > was made public as-is without modifications from what was used
>> > > > internally. There's no "secret sauce" that Microsoft is hiding here.
>> > >
>> > > Ok, if it was just drop of "current version" of documentation then it
>> > > makes sense.
>> > >
>> > > > How about we give this spec/code time to get soaked and reviewed for a
>> > > > bit, and if folks still feel (in a month or so?) that there are missing
>> > > > bits of information related to exfat, I'll be happy to go back and try
>> > > > to get them out as well.
>> >
>> > Hello Sasha!
>> >
>> > Now one month passed, so do you have some information when missing parts
>> > of documentation like TexFAT would be released to public?
>>
>> Sure, I'll see if I can get an approval to open it up.
>
>Ok!
>
>> Can I assume you will be implementing TexFAT support once the spec is
>> available?
>
>I cannot promise that I would implement something which I do not know
>how is working... It depends on how complicated TexFAT is and also how
>future exfat support in kernel would look like.
>
>But I'm interesting in implementing it.

Sure, thank you. This is more to let me tell my management that "there
is someone who wants to work on it" rather than committing you to do
that work :)

-- 
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Sasha
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Greg Kroah-Hartman]

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:03:49PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
> > Can I assume you will be implementing TexFAT support once the spec is
> > available?
> 
> I cannot promise that I would implement something which I do not know
> how is working... It depends on how complicated TexFAT is and also how
> future exfat support in kernel would look like.
> 
> But I'm interesting in implementing it.

What devices need TexFAT?  I thought it the old devices that used it are
long obsolete and gone.  How is this feature going to be tested/used?

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Pali Rohár]

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On Wednesday 16 October 2019 09:22:11 Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:03:49PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
> > > Can I assume you will be implementing TexFAT support once the spec is
> > > available?
> > 
> > I cannot promise that I would implement something which I do not know
> > how is working... It depends on how complicated TexFAT is and also how
> > future exfat support in kernel would look like.
> > 
> > But I'm interesting in implementing it.
> 
> What devices need TexFAT?  I thought it the old devices that used it are
> long obsolete and gone.  How is this feature going to be tested/used?

Hi Greg! Per 3.1.16 of exFAT specification [1], TexFAT extension is the
only way how to use more FAT tables, like in FAT32 (where you normally
have two FATs). Secondary FAT table can be used e.g. for redundancy or
data recovery. For FAT32 volumes, e.g. fsck.fat uses secondary FAT table
when first one is corrupted.

Usage of just one FAT table in exFAT is just step backward from FAT32 as
secondary FAT table is sometimes the only way how to recover broken FAT
fs. So I do not think that exFAT is for old devices, but rather
non-exFAT is for old devices. Modern filesystems have journal or other
technique to do (fast|some) recovery, exFAT has nothing.

And how is this feature going to be used? That depends on specification.

[1] - https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/fileio/exfat-specification#3116-numberoffats-field

-- 
Pali Rohár
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Greg Kroah-Hartman]

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:32:31PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
> On Wednesday 16 October 2019 09:22:11 Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:03:49PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
> > > > Can I assume you will be implementing TexFAT support once the spec is
> > > > available?
> > > 
> > > I cannot promise that I would implement something which I do not know
> > > how is working... It depends on how complicated TexFAT is and also how
> > > future exfat support in kernel would look like.
> > > 
> > > But I'm interesting in implementing it.
> > 
> > What devices need TexFAT?  I thought it the old devices that used it are
> > long obsolete and gone.  How is this feature going to be tested/used?
> 
> Hi Greg! Per 3.1.16 of exFAT specification [1], TexFAT extension is the
> only way how to use more FAT tables, like in FAT32 (where you normally
> have two FATs). Secondary FAT table can be used e.g. for redundancy or
> data recovery. For FAT32 volumes, e.g. fsck.fat uses secondary FAT table
> when first one is corrupted.
> 
> Usage of just one FAT table in exFAT is just step backward from FAT32 as
> secondary FAT table is sometimes the only way how to recover broken FAT
> fs. So I do not think that exFAT is for old devices, but rather
> non-exFAT is for old devices. Modern filesystems have journal or other
> technique to do (fast|some) recovery, exFAT has nothing.
> 
> And how is this feature going to be used? That depends on specification.
> 
> [1] - https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/fileio/exfat-specification#3116-numberoffats-field

Ok, but given that the "only" os that can read/write the TexFAT
extension is WinCE, and that os is obsolete these days, it might be hard
to find images to test/validate against :)

But hey, I'll take the patch if you write it, no objection!

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Sasha Levin]

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:03:49PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
>On Wednesday 16 October 2019 10:31:13 Sasha Levin wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 04:03:53PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
>> > On Friday 30 August 2019 09:56:47 Pali Rohár wrote:
>> > > On Thursday 29 August 2019 19:35:06 Sasha Levin wrote:
>> > > > With regards to missing specs/docs/whatever - our main concern with this
>> > > > release was that we want full interoperability, which is why the spec
>> > > > was made public as-is without modifications from what was used
>> > > > internally. There's no "secret sauce" that Microsoft is hiding here.
>> > >
>> > > Ok, if it was just drop of "current version" of documentation then it
>> > > makes sense.
>> > >
>> > > > How about we give this spec/code time to get soaked and reviewed for a
>> > > > bit, and if folks still feel (in a month or so?) that there are missing
>> > > > bits of information related to exfat, I'll be happy to go back and try
>> > > > to get them out as well.
>> >
>> > Hello Sasha!
>> >
>> > Now one month passed, so do you have some information when missing parts
>> > of documentation like TexFAT would be released to public?
>>
>> Sure, I'll see if I can get an approval to open it up.
>
>Ok!
>
>> Can I assume you will be implementing TexFAT support once the spec is
>> available?
>
>I cannot promise that I would implement something which I do not know
>how is working... It depends on how complicated TexFAT is and also how
>future exfat support in kernel would look like.
>
>But I'm interesting in implementing it.

It looks like the reason this wasn't made public along with the exFAT
spec is that TexFAT is pretty much dead - it's old, there are no users
we are aware of, and digging it out of it's grave to make it public is
actually quite the headache.

Is this something you actually have a need for? an entity that has a
requirement for TexFAT? I'd would rather spend my time elsewhere than
digging TexFAT out of it's grave.

Is there anything else in the exFAT spec that is missing (and someone
actually wants/uses)?

-- 
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Sasha
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Valdis Klētnieks]

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On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 16:33:17 -0400, Sasha Levin said:

> It looks like the reason this wasn't made public along with the exFAT
> spec is that TexFAT is pretty much dead - it's old, there are no users
> we are aware of, and digging it out of it's grave to make it public is
> actually quite the headache.

Ahh.. For some reason I had convinced myself that base exfat implementations
used at least the 'keep a backup FAT' part of TexFAT, because on a terabyte
external USB drive, losing the FAT would be painful.  But if Windows 10 doesn't
do that either, then it's no great sin for Linux to not do it (and may cause
problems if Linux says "currently using FAT 2", and the disk is next used on a
Windows 10 box that only looks at FAT 1....)


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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Pali Rohár]

On Wednesday 16 October 2019 17:53:43 Valdis Klētnieks wrote:
> and may cause problems if Linux says "currently using FAT 2", and the
> disk is next used on a Windows 10 box that only looks at FAT 1....

You should use same algorithm which is used for FAT32. Primary FAT is
first. And all operations are done on Secondary FAT and then is
Secondary FAT copied to Primary. This is backward compatible with
systems which operates only with first primary FAT. And other systems
which see both FATs can benefit from redundancy/recovery.

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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Pali Rohár]

On Wednesday 16 October 2019 16:33:17 Sasha Levin wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:03:49PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
> > On Wednesday 16 October 2019 10:31:13 Sasha Levin wrote:
> > > On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 04:03:53PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
> > > > On Friday 30 August 2019 09:56:47 Pali Rohár wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday 29 August 2019 19:35:06 Sasha Levin wrote:
> > > > > > With regards to missing specs/docs/whatever - our main concern with this
> > > > > > release was that we want full interoperability, which is why the spec
> > > > > > was made public as-is without modifications from what was used
> > > > > > internally. There's no "secret sauce" that Microsoft is hiding here.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, if it was just drop of "current version" of documentation then it
> > > > > makes sense.
> > > > >
> > > > > > How about we give this spec/code time to get soaked and reviewed for a
> > > > > > bit, and if folks still feel (in a month or so?) that there are missing
> > > > > > bits of information related to exfat, I'll be happy to go back and try
> > > > > > to get them out as well.
> > > >
> > > > Hello Sasha!
> > > >
> > > > Now one month passed, so do you have some information when missing parts
> > > > of documentation like TexFAT would be released to public?
> > > 
> > > Sure, I'll see if I can get an approval to open it up.
> > 
> > Ok!
> > 
> > > Can I assume you will be implementing TexFAT support once the spec is
> > > available?
> > 
> > I cannot promise that I would implement something which I do not know
> > how is working... It depends on how complicated TexFAT is and also how
> > future exfat support in kernel would look like.
> > 
> > But I'm interesting in implementing it.
> 
> It looks like the reason this wasn't made public along with the exFAT
> spec is that TexFAT is pretty much dead - it's old, there are no users
> we are aware of, and digging it out of it's grave to make it public is
> actually quite the headache.
> 
> Is this something you actually have a need for? an entity that has a
> requirement for TexFAT?

Hi!

I do not have device with requirements for TexFAT. The first reason why
I wanted to use TexFAT was that it it the only way how to use more FAT
tables (e.g. secondary for backup) and information for that is missing
in released exFAT specification. This could bring better data recovery.

> I'd would rather spend my time elsewhere than digging TexFAT out of it's grave.

Ok.

I was hoping that it would be possible to easily use secondary FAT table
(from TexFAT extension) for redundancy without need to implement full
TexFAT, which could be also backward compatible with systems which do
not implement TexFAT extension at all. Similarly like using FAT32 disk
with two FAT tables is possible also on system which use first FAT
table.

> Is there anything else in the exFAT spec that is missing (and someone
> actually wants/uses)?

Currently I do not know.

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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Pali Rohár]

Hello!

On Thursday 17 October 2019 09:50:08 Pali Rohár wrote:
> On Wednesday 16 October 2019 16:33:17 Sasha Levin wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:03:49PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
> > > On Wednesday 16 October 2019 10:31:13 Sasha Levin wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 04:03:53PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
> > > > > On Friday 30 August 2019 09:56:47 Pali Rohár wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday 29 August 2019 19:35:06 Sasha Levin wrote:
> > > > > > > With regards to missing specs/docs/whatever - our main concern with this
> > > > > > > release was that we want full interoperability, which is why the spec
> > > > > > > was made public as-is without modifications from what was used
> > > > > > > internally. There's no "secret sauce" that Microsoft is hiding here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ok, if it was just drop of "current version" of documentation then it
> > > > > > makes sense.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > How about we give this spec/code time to get soaked and reviewed for a
> > > > > > > bit, and if folks still feel (in a month or so?) that there are missing
> > > > > > > bits of information related to exfat, I'll be happy to go back and try
> > > > > > > to get them out as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Sasha!
> > > > >
> > > > > Now one month passed, so do you have some information when missing parts
> > > > > of documentation like TexFAT would be released to public?
> > > > 
> > > > Sure, I'll see if I can get an approval to open it up.
> > > 
> > > Ok!
> > > 
> > > > Can I assume you will be implementing TexFAT support once the spec is
> > > > available?
> > > 
> > > I cannot promise that I would implement something which I do not know
> > > how is working... It depends on how complicated TexFAT is and also how
> > > future exfat support in kernel would look like.
> > > 
> > > But I'm interesting in implementing it.
> > 
> > It looks like the reason this wasn't made public along with the exFAT
> > spec is that TexFAT is pretty much dead - it's old, there are no users
> > we are aware of, and digging it out of it's grave to make it public is
> > actually quite the headache.
> > 
> > Is this something you actually have a need for? an entity that has a
> > requirement for TexFAT?
> 
> Hi!
> 
> I do not have device with requirements for TexFAT. The first reason why
> I wanted to use TexFAT was that it it the only way how to use more FAT
> tables (e.g. secondary for backup) and information for that is missing
> in released exFAT specification. This could bring better data recovery.
> 
> > I'd would rather spend my time elsewhere than digging TexFAT out of it's grave.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> I was hoping that it would be possible to easily use secondary FAT table
> (from TexFAT extension) for redundancy without need to implement full
> TexFAT, which could be also backward compatible with systems which do
> not implement TexFAT extension at all. Similarly like using FAT32 disk
> with two FAT tables is possible also on system which use first FAT
> table.

By the chance, is there any possibility to release TexFAT specification?
Usage of more FAT tables (even for Linux) could help with data recovery.

> > Is there anything else in the exFAT spec that is missing (and someone
> > actually wants/uses)?
> 
> Currently I do not know.

I found one missing thing:

In released exFAT specification is not written how are Unicode code
points above U+FFFF represented in exFAT upcase table. Normally in
UTF-16 are Unicode code points above U+FFFF represented by surrogate
pairs but compression format of exFAT upcase table is not clear how to
do it there.

Are you able to send question about this problem to relevant MS people?

New Linux implementation of exfat which is waiting on mailing list just
do not support Unicode code points above U+FFFF in exFAT upcase table.

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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Sasha Levin]

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 01:06:56AM +0100, Pali Rohár wrote:
>Hello!
>
>On Thursday 17 October 2019 09:50:08 Pali Rohár wrote:
>> On Wednesday 16 October 2019 16:33:17 Sasha Levin wrote:
>> > On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:03:49PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
>> > > On Wednesday 16 October 2019 10:31:13 Sasha Levin wrote:
>> > > > On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 04:03:53PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
>> > > > > On Friday 30 August 2019 09:56:47 Pali Rohár wrote:
>> > > > > > On Thursday 29 August 2019 19:35:06 Sasha Levin wrote:
>> > > > > > > With regards to missing specs/docs/whatever - our main concern with this
>> > > > > > > release was that we want full interoperability, which is why the spec
>> > > > > > > was made public as-is without modifications from what was used
>> > > > > > > internally. There's no "secret sauce" that Microsoft is hiding here.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Ok, if it was just drop of "current version" of documentation then it
>> > > > > > makes sense.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > How about we give this spec/code time to get soaked and reviewed for a
>> > > > > > > bit, and if folks still feel (in a month or so?) that there are missing
>> > > > > > > bits of information related to exfat, I'll be happy to go back and try
>> > > > > > > to get them out as well.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Hello Sasha!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Now one month passed, so do you have some information when missing parts
>> > > > > of documentation like TexFAT would be released to public?
>> > > >
>> > > > Sure, I'll see if I can get an approval to open it up.
>> > >
>> > > Ok!
>> > >
>> > > > Can I assume you will be implementing TexFAT support once the spec is
>> > > > available?
>> > >
>> > > I cannot promise that I would implement something which I do not know
>> > > how is working... It depends on how complicated TexFAT is and also how
>> > > future exfat support in kernel would look like.
>> > >
>> > > But I'm interesting in implementing it.
>> >
>> > It looks like the reason this wasn't made public along with the exFAT
>> > spec is that TexFAT is pretty much dead - it's old, there are no users
>> > we are aware of, and digging it out of it's grave to make it public is
>> > actually quite the headache.
>> >
>> > Is this something you actually have a need for? an entity that has a
>> > requirement for TexFAT?
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>> I do not have device with requirements for TexFAT. The first reason why
>> I wanted to use TexFAT was that it it the only way how to use more FAT
>> tables (e.g. secondary for backup) and information for that is missing
>> in released exFAT specification. This could bring better data recovery.
>>
>> > I'd would rather spend my time elsewhere than digging TexFAT out of it's grave.
>>
>> Ok.
>>
>> I was hoping that it would be possible to easily use secondary FAT table
>> (from TexFAT extension) for redundancy without need to implement full
>> TexFAT, which could be also backward compatible with systems which do
>> not implement TexFAT extension at all. Similarly like using FAT32 disk
>> with two FAT tables is possible also on system which use first FAT
>> table.
>
>By the chance, is there any possibility to release TexFAT specification?
>Usage of more FAT tables (even for Linux) could help with data recovery.

This would be a major pain in the arse to pull off (even more that
releasing exFAT itself) because TexFAT is effectively dead and no one
here cares about it. It's not even the case that there are devices which
are now left unsupported, the whole TexFAT scheme is just dead and gone.

Could I point you to the TexFAT patent instead
(https://patents.google.com/patent/US7613738B2/en)? It describes well
how TexFAT used to work.

>> > Is there anything else in the exFAT spec that is missing (and someone
>> > actually wants/uses)?
>>
>> Currently I do not know.
>
>I found one missing thing:
>
>In released exFAT specification is not written how are Unicode code
>points above U+FFFF represented in exFAT upcase table. Normally in
>UTF-16 are Unicode code points above U+FFFF represented by surrogate
>pairs but compression format of exFAT upcase table is not clear how to
>do it there.
>
>Are you able to send question about this problem to relevant MS people?
>
>New Linux implementation of exfat which is waiting on mailing list just
>do not support Unicode code points above U+FFFF in exFAT upcase table.

Sure, I'll forward this question on. I'll see if I can get someone from
their team who could be available to answer questions such as these in
the future - Microsoft is interested in maintaining compatiblity between
Linux and Windows exFAT implementations.

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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Valdis Klētnieks]

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On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:18:47 -0500, Sasha Levin said:

> >> I was hoping that it would be possible to easily use secondary FAT table
> >> (from TexFAT extension) for redundancy without need to implement full
> >> TexFAT, which could be also backward compatible with systems which do
> >> not implement TexFAT extension at all. Similarly like using FAT32 disk
> >> with two FAT tables is possible also on system which use first FAT
> >> table.

OK.. maybe I'm not sufficiently caffeinated, but how do you use 2 FAT tables on
a physical device and expect it to work properly on a system that uses just the
first FAT table, if the device is set to "use second table" when you mount it?
That sounds just too much like the failure modes of running fsck on a mounted
filesystem....

> >By the chance, is there any possibility to release TexFAT specification?
> >Usage of more FAT tables (even for Linux) could help with data recovery.
>
> This would be a major pain in the arse to pull off (even more that
> releasing exFAT itself) because TexFAT is effectively dead and no one
> here cares about it. It's not even the case that there are devices which
> are now left unsupported, the whole TexFAT scheme is just dead and gone.
>
> Could I point you to the TexFAT patent instead
> (https://patents.google.com/patent/US7613738B2/en)? It describes well
> how TexFAT used to work.

I don't think anybody wants the full TexFAT support - but having a backup copy
of the FAT would be nice in some circumstances.

Actually, that raises an question....

What the published spec says:

The File Allocation Table (FAT) region may contain up to two FATs, one in the
First FAT sub-region and another in the Second FAT sub-region. The NumberOfFats
field describes how many FATs this region contains. The valid values for the
NumberOfFats field are 1 and 2. Therefore, the First FAT sub-region always
contains a FAT. If the NumberOfFats field is two, then the Second FAT
sub-region also contains a FAT.

The ActiveFat field of the VolumeFlags field describes which FAT is active.
Only the VolumeFlags field in the Main Boot Sector is current. Implementations
shall treat the FAT which is not active as stale. Use of the inactive FAT and
switching between FATs is implementation specific.

Sasha:  can you find out what the Windows implementation does regarding that
last sentence?  Does it actively use both FAT sub-regions and switch between
them (probably not), or does it read the ActiveFAT value and use that one, or
does Windows just use NumberOfFats == 1?

I'm assuming that the fact the doc also says "NumberOfFats == 2 is only valid
for TexFAT volumes" possibly means "Microsoft thinks that's hardcoded at 1"
given the death of TexFAT.  That would make adding alternate FAT support a
major challenge.

On the other hand, if Windows actually looks at the NumberOfFats value, finds
a 2, and ActiveFAT ==1 (meaning use second table) and says "OK, whatever" and
just uses the second table from there on out, it becomes a lot easier.



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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Pali Rohár]

On Friday 14 February 2020 17:16:18 Valdis Klētnieks wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:18:47 -0500, Sasha Levin said:
> 
> > >> I was hoping that it would be possible to easily use secondary FAT table
> > >> (from TexFAT extension) for redundancy without need to implement full
> > >> TexFAT, which could be also backward compatible with systems which do
> > >> not implement TexFAT extension at all. Similarly like using FAT32 disk
> > >> with two FAT tables is possible also on system which use first FAT
> > >> table.
> 
> OK.. maybe I'm not sufficiently caffeinated, but how do you use 2 FAT tables on
> a physical device and expect it to work properly on a system that uses just the
> first FAT table, if the device is set to "use second table" when you mount it?
> That sounds just too much like the failure modes of running fsck on a mounted
> filesystem....

Idea is simple. Expects that we have a clean filesystem in correct
state. We load primary/active/main FAT table (just call it FAT1) and all
changes to filesystem would be done via second non-active FAT table
(FAT2). At unmount or sync or flush buffer times, FAT2 would be copied
back to the FAT1 and filesystem would be back in clean state.

So this should not break support for implementations which use just
FAT1. And if above implementation which use both FAT1 and FAT2 "crash"
during write operations to FAT2 it may be possible to reconstruct and
repair some parts of filesystem from FAT1 (as it would contain previous
state of some filesystem parts).

Via dirty bit can be detected if proper unmount occurred or not, and
fsck implementation could do use this fact and try to do repairing
(possible by asking user what should do).

Of course if implementation use only FAT1 we cannot use FAT2 for
repairing and therefore fsck should really ask user if it should use
FAT2 for repair or not.

If implementation use only FAT1, does not crash and let filesystem in
clean/correct state then there should not be any problem for
implementation which can use both FATs as it reads main state from FAT1.
Therefore these two implementations should be compatible and problem can
happen only if they let filesystem in inconsistent state. (But if they
let it in inconsistent state, then any implementation may have troubles
and fsck is needed).

I hope that it is more clear now...

> > >By the chance, is there any possibility to release TexFAT specification?
> > >Usage of more FAT tables (even for Linux) could help with data recovery.
> >
> > This would be a major pain in the arse to pull off (even more that
> > releasing exFAT itself) because TexFAT is effectively dead and no one
> > here cares about it. It's not even the case that there are devices which
> > are now left unsupported, the whole TexFAT scheme is just dead and gone.
> >
> > Could I point you to the TexFAT patent instead
> > (https://patents.google.com/patent/US7613738B2/en)? It describes well
> > how TexFAT used to work.
> 
> I don't think anybody wants the full TexFAT support - but having a backup copy
> of the FAT would be nice in some circumstances.

Main problem is that we do not know what "full TexFAT support" means as
currently it is secret.

My original question for TexFAT was also because of NumberOfFats set to
2 is according to released exFAT specification possible only for TexFAT
volumes.

And from reading whole exFAT specification I see that better data
recovery can be achieved only by having backup copy of FAT table (and
allocation bitmap), which is limited to (currently undocumented) TexFAT
extension.

-- 
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pali.rohar@gmail.com
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Valdis Klētnieks]

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> Idea is simple. Expects that we have a clean filesystem in correct
> state. We load primary/active/main FAT table (just call it FAT1) and all
> changes to filesystem would be done via second non-active FAT table
> (FAT2). At unmount or sync or flush buffer times, FAT2 would be copied
> back to the FAT1 and filesystem would be back in clean state.

Somehow, scribbling on the non-active table for actual changes sounds like a
bad idea waiting to happen (partly because if you do that and crash, after the
reboot you remount, and it starts up with the now-stale FAT1 because you never
flagged that FAT as stale.

That means that if we started using the secondary FAT, we'd change the
ActiveFAT variable to indicate that.  And if we do that, we need to also set
num_fat to 2 because num_fat 1 and ActiveFAT pointing at the second FAT is
*definitely* bogus.

And that could result in us crashing and leaving the device with a header that
says 'num_fat == 2', ActiveFAT == second, and the dirty bit set - and the user
next uses the  filesystem on a system/device that hard-codes that there's only 1 FAT,
so it blindly goes on its merry way using a FAT that's stale and never realizing it.

And that's actually the same failure mode as in the first paragraph - you start
off using FAT1 because you don't see an indication that it's stale.

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exfat upcase table for code points above U+FFFF (Was: Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging)

[Pali Rohár]

On Thursday 13 February 2020 16:18:47 Sasha Levin wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 01:06:56AM +0100, Pali Rohár wrote:
> > In released exFAT specification is not written how are Unicode code
> > points above U+FFFF represented in exFAT upcase table. Normally in
> > UTF-16 are Unicode code points above U+FFFF represented by surrogate
> > pairs but compression format of exFAT upcase table is not clear how to
> > do it there.
> > 
> > Are you able to send question about this problem to relevant MS people?
> > 
> > New Linux implementation of exfat which is waiting on mailing list just
> > do not support Unicode code points above U+FFFF in exFAT upcase table.
> 
> Sure, I'll forward this question on. I'll see if I can get someone from
> their team who could be available to answer questions such as these in
> the future - Microsoft is interested in maintaining compatiblity between
> Linux and Windows exFAT implementations.

Hello Sasha! Have you got any answer from exfat MS team about upcase
table for Unicode code points above U+FFFF?
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Re: exfat upcase table for code points above U+FFFF (Was: Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging)

[Sasha Levin]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:30:45PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
>On Thursday 13 February 2020 16:18:47 Sasha Levin wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 01:06:56AM +0100, Pali Rohár wrote:
>> > In released exFAT specification is not written how are Unicode code
>> > points above U+FFFF represented in exFAT upcase table. Normally in
>> > UTF-16 are Unicode code points above U+FFFF represented by surrogate
>> > pairs but compression format of exFAT upcase table is not clear how to
>> > do it there.
>> >
>> > Are you able to send question about this problem to relevant MS people?
>> >
>> > New Linux implementation of exfat which is waiting on mailing list just
>> > do not support Unicode code points above U+FFFF in exFAT upcase table.
>>
>> Sure, I'll forward this question on. I'll see if I can get someone from
>> their team who could be available to answer questions such as these in
>> the future - Microsoft is interested in maintaining compatiblity between
>> Linux and Windows exFAT implementations.
>
>Hello Sasha! Have you got any answer from exfat MS team about upcase
>table for Unicode code points above U+FFFF?

Sorry for taking so long. This is my understanding from the Windows
folks: Windows filesystems just don't support variable encoding length,
and expect UCS-2 strings.

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Re: exfat upcase table for code points above U+FFFF (Was: Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging)

[Pali Rohár]

On Monday 27 April 2020 11:49:13 Sasha Levin wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:30:45PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:
> > On Thursday 13 February 2020 16:18:47 Sasha Levin wrote:
> > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 01:06:56AM +0100, Pali Rohár wrote:
> > > > In released exFAT specification is not written how are Unicode code
> > > > points above U+FFFF represented in exFAT upcase table. Normally in
> > > > UTF-16 are Unicode code points above U+FFFF represented by surrogate
> > > > pairs but compression format of exFAT upcase table is not clear how to
> > > > do it there.
> > > >
> > > > Are you able to send question about this problem to relevant MS people?
> > > >
> > > > New Linux implementation of exfat which is waiting on mailing list just
> > > > do not support Unicode code points above U+FFFF in exFAT upcase table.
> > > 
> > > Sure, I'll forward this question on. I'll see if I can get someone from
> > > their team who could be available to answer questions such as these in
> > > the future - Microsoft is interested in maintaining compatiblity between
> > > Linux and Windows exFAT implementations.
> > 
> > Hello Sasha! Have you got any answer from exfat MS team about upcase
> > table for Unicode code points above U+FFFF?
> 
> Sorry for taking so long. This is my understanding from the Windows
> folks: Windows filesystems just don't support variable encoding length,
> and expect UCS-2 strings.

Ok, so should I understand your answer as exFAT upcase table does not
support representing Unicode code points above U+FFFF and therefore
exFAT implementation should expect that toupper(u) = u and tolower(u) = u
for any Unicode code point u in range [U+10000, U+10FFFF]? This is how
current exfat linux driver behave.
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Valdis Klētnieks]

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On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:31:13 -0400, Sasha Levin said:
> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 04:03:53PM +0200, Pali Rohár wrote:

> >Now one month passed, so do you have some information when missing parts
> >of documentation like TexFAT would be released to public?
>
> Sure, I'll see if I can get an approval to open it up.
>
> Can I assume you will be implementing TexFAT support once the spec is
> available?

It's certainly something that *should* be supported. The exact timeframe, and
who the "you" that actually writes the patch is of course up in the air (and
will likely end up being a collaborative effort between the first author and
corrections from others).


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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Christoph Hellwig]

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 01:18:10PM +0200, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> Hey, that's not nice, erofs isn't a POS.  It could always use more
> review, which the developers asked for numerous times.
> 
> There's nothing different from a filesystem compared to a driver.  If
> its stand-alone, and touches nothing else, all issues with it are
> self-contained and do not bother anyone else in the kernel.  We merge
> drivers all the time that need more work because our review cycles are
> low.  And review cycles for vfs developers are even more scarce than
> driver reviewers.

A lot of the issue that are trivial to pick are really just very basic
issue that don't even require file system know how.  Or in other ways
just a little less lazy developer that looks out for similar code
outside their own little fiefdom.
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Dave Chinner]

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 01:18:10PM +0200, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 03:37:49AM -0700, Christoph Hellwig wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 11:50:19AM +0200, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> > > I know the code is horrible, but I will gladly take horrible code into
> > > staging.  If it bothers you, just please ignore it.  That's what staging
> > > is there for :)
> > 
> > And then after a while you decide it's been long enough and force move
> > it out of staging like the POS erofs code?
> 
> Hey, that's not nice, erofs isn't a POS.  It could always use more
> review, which the developers asked for numerous times.
> 
> There's nothing different from a filesystem compared to a driver.  If
> its stand-alone, and touches nothing else, all issues with it are
> self-contained and do not bother anyone else in the kernel.  We merge

I whole-heartedly disagree with that statement.

The major difference between filesystems and the rest of the kernel
that seems to be missed by most kernel developers is that
filesystems maintain persistent data - you can't fix a problem/bug
by rebooting or power cycling. Once the filesystem code screws up,
the user is left with a mess they have to fix and that invariably
results in data loss.

Users remember when a filesystem eats their data - they don't tend
to want to have anything to do with that filesystem ever again if it
happens to them. We still get people saying "XFS ate my data back in
2002, I dont trust it and I'll never use it again".

Users put up with shit hardware and drivers - it's an inconvenience
more than anything. They don't put up with buggy filesystems that
lose their data - that is completely unacceptible to users.  As a
result, the quality and stability standard for merging a new
filesystem needs to be far higher that what is acceptible for
merging a new driver.

The correct place for new filesystem review is where all the
experienced filesystem developers hang out - that's linux-fsdevel,
not the driver staging tree.

Cheers,

Dave.
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Valdis Klētnieks]

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On Sat, 31 Aug 2019 07:54:10 +1000, Dave Chinner said:

> The correct place for new filesystem review is where all the
> experienced filesystem developers hang out - that's linux-fsdevel,
> not the driver staging tree.

So far everything's been cc'ed to linux-fsdevel, which has been spending
more time discussing unlikely() usage in a different filesystem.



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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Dave Chinner]

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 06:31:45AM -0400, Valdis Klētnieks wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Aug 2019 07:54:10 +1000, Dave Chinner said:
> 
> > The correct place for new filesystem review is where all the
> > experienced filesystem developers hang out - that's linux-fsdevel,
> > not the driver staging tree.
> 
> So far everything's been cc'ed to linux-fsdevel, which has been spending
> more time discussing unlikely() usage in a different filesystem.

That's just noise - you'll get whitespace and other trivial
review on any list you post a patch series for review. Go back and
look at what other people have raised w.r.t. to that filesystem -
on-disk format validation, re-implementation of largely generic
code, lack of namespacing of functions leading to conflicts with
generic/VFS functionality, etc.

Review bandwidth for things like on-disk format definition and
manipulation, consistency with other filesystems, efficient
integration into the generic infrastructure, etc is limited.
Everyone has to juggle that around the load they have for their own
filesystem maintenance, and there's usually only bandwidth for a
single filesystem at a time.

Just be patient - trying to force the merging of code before there's
even been consensus on fundamental architecture choices doesn't make
things better for anyone.  Merging incomplete filesystem code early
in the development cycle has -always- been something we've regretted
in the long run.  We've learn this lesson many times before, yet we
seem doomed to repeat it yet again...

Cheers,

Dave.
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Chao Yu]

On 2019/8/30 19:51, David Sterba wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 10:06:25AM +0800, Chao Yu wrote:
>> On 2019/8/29 23:43, Dan Carpenter wrote:
>>>> p.s. There are 2947 (un)likely places in fs/ directory.
>>>
>>> I was complaining about you adding new pointless ones, not existing
>>> ones.  The likely/unlikely annotations are supposed to be functional and
>>> not decorative.  I explained this very clearly.
>>>
>>> Probably most of the annotations in fs/ are wrong but they are also
>>> harmless except for the slight messiness.  However there are definitely
>>> some which are important so removing them all isn't a good idea.
>>
>> Hi Dan,
>>
>> Could you please pick up one positive example using likely and unlikely
>> correctly? so we can follow the example, rather than removing them all blindly.
> 
> Remove all of them and re-add with explanation if and how each is going
> to make things better. If you can't reason about, prove by benchmarks or
> point to inefficient asm code generated, then don't add them again.

It seems the result of it is strongly related to arch and compiler, if we readd
it after we just prove its gain only in one combination, I doubt we may suffer
regression in other combination in between archs and comilers. It looks like we
don't have any cheaper way to readd it? instead of verifying all/most combinations.

> 
> The feedback I got from CPU and compiler people over the years is not to
> bother using the annotations. CPUs are doing dynamic branch prediction
> and compilers are applying tons of optimizations.
> 
> GCC docs state about the builtin: "In general, you should prefer to use
> actual profile feedback for this (-fprofile-arcs), as programmers are
> notoriously bad at predicting how their programs actually perform."
> (https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Other-Builtins.html)

Yes, I agree with this. Thanks a lot for sharing your experience. :)

The removal change has done and been merged into Greg's tree, let's consider to
readd it later if possible as you suggested.

thanks,

> .
> 
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to

[Park Ju Hyung]

Hi.

I just noticed that this exfat-staging drivers are based on the old 
Samsung's 1.x exFAT drivers.

I've been working to get the newer Samsung's driver(now named "sdFAT") 
to fit better for general Linux users, and I believe it can provide a 
better base for the community to work on(and hopefully complies better 
to the mainline coding standard).

GitHub link
https://github.com/arter97/exfat-linux

I also included some rudimentary benchmark results.

I encourage mainline developers to explore this driver base and see if 
it's worth to switch, since it's the early days of exfat-staging.

To others watching this thread:
It's more than likely that you can start using exFAT reliably right 
away by following the link above. It's tested on all major LTS kernels 
ranging from 3.4 to 4.19 and the ones Canonical uses for Ubuntu: 3.4, 
3.10, 3.18, 4.1, 4.4, 4.9, 4.14, 4.19 and 4.15, 5.0, 5.2, and 5.3-rc.

Thanks.
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to

[Greg KH]

On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 10:39:51PM +0900, Park Ju Hyung wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> I just noticed that this exfat-staging drivers are based on the old 
> Samsung's 1.x exFAT drivers.
> 
> I've been working to get the newer Samsung's driver(now named "sdFAT") 
> to fit better for general Linux users, and I believe it can provide a 
> better base for the community to work on(and hopefully complies better 
> to the mainline coding standard).
> 
> GitHub link
> https://github.com/arter97/exfat-linux
> 
> I also included some rudimentary benchmark results.
> 
> I encourage mainline developers to explore this driver base and see if 
> it's worth to switch, since it's the early days of exfat-staging.

Note, this just showed up publically on August 12, where were you with
all of this new code before then?  :)

> To others watching this thread:
> It's more than likely that you can start using exFAT reliably right 
> away by following the link above. It's tested on all major LTS kernels 
> ranging from 3.4 to 4.19 and the ones Canonical uses for Ubuntu: 3.4, 
> 3.10, 3.18, 4.1, 4.4, 4.9, 4.14, 4.19 and 4.15, 5.0, 5.2, and 5.3-rc.

For the in-kernel code, we would have to rip out all of the work you did
for all older kernels, so that's a non-starter right there.

As for what codebase to work off of, I don't want to say it is too late,
but really, this shows up from nowhere and we had to pick something so
we found the best we could at that point in time.

Is there anything specific in the codebase you have now, that is lacking
in the in-kernel code?  Old-kernel-support doesn't count here, as we
don't care about that as it is not applicable.  But functionality does
matter, what has been added here that we can make use of?

And do you have any "real" development history to look at instead of the
"one giant commit" of the initial code drop?  That is where we could
actually learn what has changed over time.  Your repo as-is shows none
of the interesting bits :(

thanks,

greg kh
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to

[Ju Hyung Park]

Hi Greg,

On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 10:54 PM Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Note, this just showed up publically on August 12, where were you with
> all of this new code before then?  :)

My sdFAT port, exfat-nofuse and the one on the staging tree, were all
made by Samsung.
And unless you guys had a chance to talk to Samsung developers
directly, those all share the same faith of lacking proper development
history.

The source I used was from http://opensource.samsung.com, which
provides kernel sources as tar.gz files.
There is no code history available.

> For the in-kernel code, we would have to rip out all of the work you did
> for all older kernels, so that's a non-starter right there.

I'm aware.
I'm just letting mainline know that there is potentially another (much
better) base that could be upstreamed.

If you want me to rip out older kernel support for upstreaming, I'm
more than happy to do so.

> As for what codebase to work off of, I don't want to say it is too late,
> but really, this shows up from nowhere and we had to pick something so
> we found the best we could at that point in time.

To be honest, whole public exFAT sources are all from nowhere unless
you had internal access to Samsung's development archive.
The one in the current staging tree isn't any better.

I'm not even sure where the staging driver is from, actually.

Samsung used the 1.2.x versioning until they switched to a new code
base - sdFAT.
The one in the staging tree is marked version 1.3.0(exfat_super.c).
I failed to find anything 1.3.x from Samsung's public kernel sources.

The last time exFAT 1.2.x was used was in Galaxy S7(released in 2016).
Mine was originally based on sdFAT 2.1.10, used in Galaxy S10(released
in March 2019) and it just got updated to 2.2.0, used in Galaxy
Note10(released in August 2019).

> Is there anything specific in the codebase you have now, that is lacking
> in the in-kernel code?  Old-kernel-support doesn't count here, as we
> don't care about that as it is not applicable.  But functionality does
> matter, what has been added here that we can make use of?

This is more of a suggestion of
"Let's base on a *much more recent* snapshot for the community to work on",
since the current one on the staging tree also lacks development history.

The diff is way too big to even start understanding the difference.


With that said though, I do have some vague but real reason as to why
sdFAT base is better.

With some major Android vendors showing interests in supporting exFAT,
Motorola notably published their work on public Git repository with
full development history(the only vendor to do this that I'm aware
of).
Commits like this:
https://github.com/MotorolaMobilityLLC/kernel-msm/commit/7ab1657 is
not merged to exFAT(including the current staging tree one) while it
did for sdFAT.


The only thing I regret is not working on porting sdFAT sooner.
I definitely didn't anticipate Microsoft to suddenly lift legal issues
on upstreaming exFAT just around when I happen to gain interest in
porting sdFAT.

If my port happened sooner, it would have been a no-brainer for it to
be considered as a top candidate for upstreaming.

> And do you have any "real" development history to look at instead of the
> "one giant commit" of the initial code drop?  That is where we could
> actually learn what has changed over time.  Your repo as-is shows none
> of the interesting bits :(

As I mentioned, development history is unobtainable, even for the
current staging tree or exfat-nofuse.
(If you guys took exfat-nofuse, you can also see that there's barely
any real exFAT-related development done in that tree. Everything is
basically fixes for newer kernel versions.)

The best I could do, if someone's interested, is to diff all versions
of exFAT/sdFAT throughout the Samsung's kernel versions, but that
still won't give us reasons as to why the changes were made.

TL;DR
My suggestion - Let's base on a much newer driver that's matured more,
contains more fixes, gives (slightly?) better performance and
hopefully has better code quality.

Both drivers are horrible.
You said it yourself(for the current staging one), and even for my new
sdFAT-base proposal, I'm definitely not comfortable seeing this kind
of crap in mainline:
https://github.com/arter97/exfat-linux/commit/0f1ddde

However, it's clear to me that the sdFAT base is less-horrible.

Please let me know what you think.

> thanks,
>
> greg kh

Thanks.
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: rebase to sdFAT v2.2.0

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 04:59:20AM +0900, Park Ju Hyung wrote:
> The new sdFAT driver base brings many improvements to the table.
> Quoting Namjae Jeon:
> 
> ======================================================================
> 1. sdfat has been refactored to improve compatibility, readability and
> to be linux friendly.(included support mass storages larger than 2TB.)
> 
> 2. sdfat has been optimized for the performance of SD-cards.
>   - Support SD-card friendly block allocation and delayed allocation
>     for vfat-fs only.
>   - Support aligned_mpage_write for both vfat-fs and exfat-fs
> 
> 3. sdfat has been optimized for the performance of general operations
>     like create,lookup and readdir.
> 
> 4. Fix many critical and minor bugs
>  - Handle many kinds of error conditions gracefully to prevent panic.
>  - Fix critical bugs related to rmdir, truncate behavior and so on...
> 
> 5. Fix NLS functions
> ======================================================================
> 
> sdFAT v2.2.0 (from N970FXXU1ASHE) was forked and then cleaned up to better
> suit mainline's standards:
> 
>  * Remove fat12/16/32 handlings and rename to exFAT.
>  * Remove older kernel compatibilities.
>  * Remove Samsung's userspace-specific code (e.g. defrag).
>  * Fix compilation warnings on modern compiler.
>  * Remove unused functions.
>  * Rename non-static functions for avoiding global symbol table pollutions.
>  * Declare functions as static whenever possible.
>  * Fix checkpatch.pl errors.
>  * Remove aligned mpage write for portability.
> 
> Full rebase history can be found on:
> https://github.com/arter97/exfat-linux/commits/for-next
> 
> Signed-off-by: Park Ju Hyung <qkrwngud825@gmail.com>
> ---
>  drivers/staging/exfat/Kconfig        |   88 +-
>  drivers/staging/exfat/Makefile       |   11 +-
>  drivers/staging/exfat/TODO           |   15 +-
>  drivers/staging/exfat/api.h          |  265 ++
>  drivers/staging/exfat/blkdev.c       |  330 +++
>  drivers/staging/exfat/cache.c        |  785 +++++
>  drivers/staging/exfat/config.h       |   32 +
>  drivers/staging/exfat/core.c         | 3169 ++++++++++++++++++++
>  drivers/staging/exfat/core.h         |  149 +
>  drivers/staging/exfat/core_exfat.c   | 1485 ++++++++++
>  drivers/staging/exfat/exfat.h        | 1261 +++-----
>  drivers/staging/exfat/exfat_blkdev.c |  136 -
>  drivers/staging/exfat/exfat_cache.c  |  724 -----
>  drivers/staging/exfat/exfat_core.c   | 3701 -----------------------
>  drivers/staging/exfat/exfat_fs.h     |  398 +++
>  drivers/staging/exfat/exfat_nls.c    |  404 ---
>  drivers/staging/exfat/exfat_super.c  | 4049 --------------------------
>  drivers/staging/exfat/exfat_upcase.c |  740 -----
>  drivers/staging/exfat/extent.c       |  329 +++
>  drivers/staging/exfat/fatent.c       |  113 +
>  drivers/staging/exfat/misc.c         |  356 +++
>  drivers/staging/exfat/nls.c          |  323 ++
>  drivers/staging/exfat/super.c        | 3168 ++++++++++++++++++++
>  drivers/staging/exfat/upcase.h       |  394 +++
>  drivers/staging/exfat/xattr.c        |   76 +
>  25 files changed, 11777 insertions(+), 10724 deletions(-)

That's a lot of rewriting :(

How about at least keeping the file names the same to make it easier to
see what happened here?

Then send a follow-on patch that just does the rename?

And by taking something like this, are you agreeing that Samsung will
help out with the development of this code to clean it up and get it
into "real" mergable shape?

Also, I can't take this patch for this simple reason alone:

> --- a/drivers/staging/exfat/Makefile
> +++ b/drivers/staging/exfat/Makefile
> @@ -1,10 +1,5 @@
> -# SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0
> -

Don't delete SPDX lines :)

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: rebase to sdFAT v2.2.0

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 04:59:20AM +0900, Park Ju Hyung wrote:
> --- a/drivers/staging/exfat/exfat.h
> +++ b/drivers/staging/exfat/exfat.h
> @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
> -/* SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0 */
> +// SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0-or-later

You just changed the license of this file.  Are you SURE about that?

I would like to get a signed-off-by from a samsung developer/lawyer to
have on the record for this, otherwise I can't take such a thing.

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: rebase to sdFAT v2.2.0

[Ju Hyung Park]

Hi Greg,

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 5:12 AM Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> That's a lot of rewriting :(
>
> How about at least keeping the file names the same to make it easier to
> see what happened here?
>
> Then send a follow-on patch that just does the rename?

That's still not quite useful tbh, lemme bring the diff stat I wrote
in previous email just in case you missed it:
<Full diff stat>
 Kconfig      |   79 +-
 Makefile     |   46 +-
 api.c        |  423 ----
 api.h        |  310 ---
 blkdev.c     |  409 +---
 cache.c      | 1142 ++++-----
 config.h     |   49 -
 core.c       | 5583 ++++++++++++++++++++++++--------------------
 core.h       |  196 --
 core_exfat.c | 1553 ------------
 exfat.h      | 1309 +++++++----
 exfat_fs.h   |  417 ----
 extent.c     |  351 ---
 fatent.c     |  182 --
 misc.c       |  401 ----
 nls.c        |  490 ++--
 super.c      | 5103 +++++++++++++++++++++-------------------
 upcase.c     |  740 ++++++
 upcase.h     |  407 ----
 version.h    |   29 -
 xattr.c      |  136 --
 21 files changed, 8186 insertions(+), 11169 deletions(-)

<diff-filter=M>
 Kconfig  |   79 +-
 Makefile |   46 +-
 blkdev.c |  409 +---
 cache.c  | 1142 +++++-----
 core.c   | 5583 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++----------------------
 exfat.h  | 1309 ++++++++----
 nls.c    |  490 ++---
 super.c  | 5103 ++++++++++++++++++++++---------------------
 8 files changed, 7446 insertions(+), 6715 deletions(-)

These diff stats were taken by removing "exfat_" prefix from the
current staging drivers.

But if that's still what you want, I'll do it.
btw, removing "exfat_" prefix from the current one makes more sense imo.

If we add "exfat_" prefix to the new one, we get weird file names like
"exfat_core_exfat.c".

> And by taking something like this, are you agreeing that Samsung will
> help out with the development of this code to clean it up and get it
> into "real" mergable shape?

Well, I think you got me confused with Namjae.
(Yeah Korean names are confusing I know :) )

Namjae (or anyone else from Samsung) should answer that, not me.

I just prepared a patch as we were getting nowhere like you mentioned :)

> Also, I can't take this patch for this simple reason alone:
> Don't delete SPDX lines :)

Sorry.
I'll add that back for v2.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 5:13 AM Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 04:59:20AM +0900, Park Ju Hyung wrote:
> > --- a/drivers/staging/exfat/exfat.h
> > +++ b/drivers/staging/exfat/exfat.h
> > @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
> > -/* SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0 */
> > +// SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0-or-later
>
> You just changed the license of this file.  Are you SURE about that?

The sdFAT code release explicitly states "either version 2 of the
License, or (at your option) any later version", so I thought that
makes sense:
https://github.com/arter97/exfat-linux/commit/d5393c4cbe0e5b50231aacd33d9b5b0ddf46a005

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks.
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: rebase to sdFAT v2.2.0

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 05:22:03AM +0900, Ju Hyung Park wrote:
> Hi Greg,
> 
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 5:12 AM Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > That's a lot of rewriting :(
> >
> > How about at least keeping the file names the same to make it easier to
> > see what happened here?
> >
> > Then send a follow-on patch that just does the rename?
> 
> That's still not quite useful tbh, lemme bring the diff stat I wrote
> in previous email just in case you missed it:
> <Full diff stat>
>  Kconfig      |   79 +-
>  Makefile     |   46 +-
>  api.c        |  423 ----
>  api.h        |  310 ---
>  blkdev.c     |  409 +---
>  cache.c      | 1142 ++++-----
>  config.h     |   49 -
>  core.c       | 5583 ++++++++++++++++++++++++--------------------
>  core.h       |  196 --
>  core_exfat.c | 1553 ------------
>  exfat.h      | 1309 +++++++----
>  exfat_fs.h   |  417 ----
>  extent.c     |  351 ---
>  fatent.c     |  182 --
>  misc.c       |  401 ----
>  nls.c        |  490 ++--
>  super.c      | 5103 +++++++++++++++++++++-------------------
>  upcase.c     |  740 ++++++
>  upcase.h     |  407 ----
>  version.h    |   29 -
>  xattr.c      |  136 --
>  21 files changed, 8186 insertions(+), 11169 deletions(-)
> 
> <diff-filter=M>
>  Kconfig  |   79 +-
>  Makefile |   46 +-
>  blkdev.c |  409 +---
>  cache.c  | 1142 +++++-----
>  core.c   | 5583 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++----------------------
>  exfat.h  | 1309 ++++++++----
>  nls.c    |  490 ++---
>  super.c  | 5103 ++++++++++++++++++++++---------------------
>  8 files changed, 7446 insertions(+), 6715 deletions(-)
> 
> These diff stats were taken by removing "exfat_" prefix from the
> current staging drivers.
> 
> But if that's still what you want, I'll do it.

It will show easier when you do funny things like take off the
formatting of the huge tables for no good reason :)

> btw, removing "exfat_" prefix from the current one makes more sense imo.

I agree.

> If we add "exfat_" prefix to the new one, we get weird file names like
> "exfat_core_exfat.c".

Agreed.

> > And by taking something like this, are you agreeing that Samsung will
> > help out with the development of this code to clean it up and get it
> > into "real" mergable shape?
> 
> Well, I think you got me confused with Namjae.
> (Yeah Korean names are confusing I know :) )

It was a general ask, that's all :)

> Namjae (or anyone else from Samsung) should answer that, not me.
> 
> I just prepared a patch as we were getting nowhere like you mentioned :)
> 
> > Also, I can't take this patch for this simple reason alone:
> > Don't delete SPDX lines :)
> 
> Sorry.
> I'll add that back for v2.
> 
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 5:13 AM Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 04:59:20AM +0900, Park Ju Hyung wrote:
> > > --- a/drivers/staging/exfat/exfat.h
> > > +++ b/drivers/staging/exfat/exfat.h
> > > @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
> > > -/* SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0 */
> > > +// SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0-or-later
> >
> > You just changed the license of this file.  Are you SURE about that?
> 
> The sdFAT code release explicitly states "either version 2 of the
> License, or (at your option) any later version", so I thought that
> makes sense:
> https://github.com/arter97/exfat-linux/commit/d5393c4cbe0e5b50231aacd33d9b5b0ddf46a005
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That differs from the original exfat code, so something is odd here.  I
need some sort of clarification from Samsung as to when they changed the
license in order to be able to relicense these files.

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: rebase to sdFAT v2.2.0

[Ju Hyung Park]

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 5:26 AM Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> That differs from the original exfat code, so something is odd here.  I
> need some sort of clarification from Samsung as to when they changed the
> license in order to be able to relicense these files.

We should probably ask Valdis on what happened there.

Even the old exFAT v1.2.24 from Galaxy S7 is using "either version 2
of the License, or (at your option) any later version".
You can go check it yourself by searching "G930F" from
http://opensource.samsung.com.

I'm guessing he probably used "GPL-2.0" during his clean-up.
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: rebase to sdFAT v2.2.0

[Valdis Klētnieks]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 856 bytes --]

On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 05:31:21 +0900, Ju Hyung Park said:

> We should probably ask Valdis on what happened there.
>
> Even the old exFAT v1.2.24 from Galaxy S7 is using "either version 2
> of the License, or (at your option) any later version".
> You can go check it yourself by searching "G930F" from
> http://opensource.samsung.com.
>
> I'm guessing he probably used "GPL-2.0" during his clean-up.

My  screw-up.

Original had:

/*
 *  Copyright (C) 2012-2013 Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
 *
 *  This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
 *  modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
 *  as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
 *  of the License, or (at your option) any later version.

So yes, I dorked up the SPDX tags, as I didn't realize GPL-2.0-or-later
was an actual thing for those...

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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: rebase to sdFAT v2.2.0

[kbuild test robot]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1845 bytes --]

Hi Park,

Thank you for the patch! Yet something to improve:

[auto build test ERROR on linus/master]
[cannot apply to v5.3 next-20190917]
[if your patch is applied to the wrong git tree, please drop us a note to help improve the system]

url:    https://github.com/0day-ci/linux/commits/Park-Ju-Hyung/staging-exfat-rebase-to-sdFAT-v2-2-0/20190919-040526
config: i386-allmodconfig (attached as .config)
compiler: gcc-7 (Debian 7.4.0-13) 7.4.0
reproduce:
        # save the attached .config to linux build tree
        make ARCH=i386 

If you fix the issue, kindly add following tag
Reported-by: kbuild test robot <lkp@intel.com>

All errors (new ones prefixed by >>):

   drivers/staging/exfat/misc.c: In function 'exfat_uevent_ro_remount':
>> drivers/staging/exfat/misc.c:57:2: error: implicit declaration of function 'ST_LOG'; did you mean 'PT_LOAD'? [-Werror=implicit-function-declaration]
     ST_LOG("[EXFAT](%s[%d:%d]): Uevent triggered\n",
     ^~~~~~
     PT_LOAD
   cc1: some warnings being treated as errors

vim +57 drivers/staging/exfat/misc.c

    43	
    44	void exfat_uevent_ro_remount(struct super_block *sb)
    45	{
    46		struct block_device *bdev = sb->s_bdev;
    47		dev_t bd_dev = bdev ? bdev->bd_dev : 0;
    48	
    49		char major[16], minor[16];
    50		char *envp[] = { major, minor, NULL };
    51	
    52		snprintf(major, sizeof(major), "MAJOR=%d", MAJOR(bd_dev));
    53		snprintf(minor, sizeof(minor), "MINOR=%d", MINOR(bd_dev));
    54	
    55		kobject_uevent_env(&exfat_uevent_kobj, KOBJ_CHANGE, envp);
    56	
  > 57		ST_LOG("[EXFAT](%s[%d:%d]): Uevent triggered\n",
    58				sb->s_id, MAJOR(bd_dev), MINOR(bd_dev));
    59	}
    60	#endif
    61	

---
0-DAY kernel test infrastructure                Open Source Technology Center
https://lists.01.org/pipermail/kbuild-all                   Intel Corporation

[-- Attachment #2: .config.gz --]
[-- Type: application/gzip, Size: 69834 bytes --]

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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: rebase to sdFAT v2.2.0

[kbuild test robot]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2298 bytes --]

Hi Park,

Thank you for the patch! Yet something to improve:

[auto build test ERROR on linus/master]
[cannot apply to v5.3 next-20190917]
[if your patch is applied to the wrong git tree, please drop us a note to help improve the system]

url:    https://github.com/0day-ci/linux/commits/Park-Ju-Hyung/staging-exfat-rebase-to-sdFAT-v2-2-0/20190919-040526
config: x86_64-allyesconfig (attached as .config)
compiler: gcc-7 (Debian 7.4.0-13) 7.4.0
reproduce:
        # save the attached .config to linux build tree
        make ARCH=x86_64 

If you fix the issue, kindly add following tag
Reported-by: kbuild test robot <lkp@intel.com>

All errors (new ones prefixed by >>):

   drivers/staging/exfat/super.c: In function 'exfat_debug_kill_sb':
>> drivers/staging/exfat/super.c:3079:4: error: implicit declaration of function 'exfat_cache_release'; did you mean 'exfat_dcache_release'? [-Werror=implicit-function-declaration]
       exfat_cache_release(sb);
       ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
       exfat_dcache_release
   cc1: some warnings being treated as errors
--
   drivers/staging/exfat/misc.c: In function 'exfat_uevent_ro_remount':
>> drivers/staging/exfat/misc.c:57:2: error: implicit declaration of function 'ST_LOG'; did you mean 'DT_REG'? [-Werror=implicit-function-declaration]
     ST_LOG("[EXFAT](%s[%d:%d]): Uevent triggered\n",
     ^~~~~~
     DT_REG
   cc1: some warnings being treated as errors

vim +3079 drivers/staging/exfat/super.c

  3063	
  3064	#ifdef CONFIG_EXFAT_DBG_IOCTL
  3065	static void exfat_debug_kill_sb(struct super_block *sb)
  3066	{
  3067		struct exfat_sb_info *sbi = EXFAT_SB(sb);
  3068		struct block_device *bdev = sb->s_bdev;
  3069	
  3070		long flags;
  3071	
  3072		if (sbi) {
  3073			flags = sbi->debug_flags;
  3074	
  3075			if (flags & EXFAT_DEBUGFLAGS_INVALID_UMOUNT) {
  3076				/* invalidate_bdev drops all device cache include dirty.
  3077				 * we use this to simulate device removal
  3078				 */
> 3079				exfat_cache_release(sb);
  3080				invalidate_bdev(bdev);
  3081			}
  3082		}
  3083	
  3084		kill_block_super(sb);
  3085	}
  3086	#endif /* CONFIG_EXFAT_DBG_IOCTL */
  3087	

---
0-DAY kernel test infrastructure                Open Source Technology Center
https://lists.01.org/pipermail/kbuild-all                   Intel Corporation

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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: rebase to sdFAT v2.2.0

[Ju Hyung Park]

Welp, looks like I didn't test debug configs properly.

Allow me 1-2 days to work on fixing it for v2.

Thanks in advance.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:31 AM kbuild test robot <lkp@intel.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Park,
>
> Thank you for the patch! Yet something to improve:
>
> [auto build test ERROR on linus/master]
> [cannot apply to v5.3 next-20190917]
> [if your patch is applied to the wrong git tree, please drop us a note to help improve the system]
>
> url:    https://github.com/0day-ci/linux/commits/Park-Ju-Hyung/staging-exfat-rebase-to-sdFAT-v2-2-0/20190919-040526
> config: x86_64-allyesconfig (attached as .config)
> compiler: gcc-7 (Debian 7.4.0-13) 7.4.0
> reproduce:
>         # save the attached .config to linux build tree
>         make ARCH=x86_64
>
> If you fix the issue, kindly add following tag
> Reported-by: kbuild test robot <lkp@intel.com>
>
> All errors (new ones prefixed by >>):
>
>    drivers/staging/exfat/super.c: In function 'exfat_debug_kill_sb':
> >> drivers/staging/exfat/super.c:3079:4: error: implicit declaration of function 'exfat_cache_release'; did you mean 'exfat_dcache_release'? [-Werror=implicit-function-declaration]
>        exfat_cache_release(sb);
>        ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>        exfat_dcache_release
>    cc1: some warnings being treated as errors
> --
>    drivers/staging/exfat/misc.c: In function 'exfat_uevent_ro_remount':
> >> drivers/staging/exfat/misc.c:57:2: error: implicit declaration of function 'ST_LOG'; did you mean 'DT_REG'? [-Werror=implicit-function-declaration]
>      ST_LOG("[EXFAT](%s[%d:%d]): Uevent triggered\n",
>      ^~~~~~
>      DT_REG
>    cc1: some warnings being treated as errors
>
> vim +3079 drivers/staging/exfat/super.c
>
>   3063
>   3064  #ifdef CONFIG_EXFAT_DBG_IOCTL
>   3065  static void exfat_debug_kill_sb(struct super_block *sb)
>   3066  {
>   3067          struct exfat_sb_info *sbi = EXFAT_SB(sb);
>   3068          struct block_device *bdev = sb->s_bdev;
>   3069
>   3070          long flags;
>   3071
>   3072          if (sbi) {
>   3073                  flags = sbi->debug_flags;
>   3074
>   3075                  if (flags & EXFAT_DEBUGFLAGS_INVALID_UMOUNT) {
>   3076                          /* invalidate_bdev drops all device cache include dirty.
>   3077                           * we use this to simulate device removal
>   3078                           */
> > 3079                          exfat_cache_release(sb);
>   3080                          invalidate_bdev(bdev);
>   3081                  }
>   3082          }
>   3083
>   3084          kill_block_super(sb);
>   3085  }
>   3086  #endif /* CONFIG_EXFAT_DBG_IOCTL */
>   3087
>
> ---
> 0-DAY kernel test infrastructure                Open Source Technology Center
> https://lists.01.org/pipermail/kbuild-all                   Intel Corporation
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Re: [PATCH] staging: exfat: add exfat filesystem code to staging

[Pali Rohár]

On Wednesday 28 August 2019 18:08:17 Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> The full specification of the filesystem can be found at:
>   https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/fileio/exfat-specification

FYI, it looks like that this released specification is just copy+paste
from exFAT patent https://patents.google.com/patent/US20150370821 which
was there publicly available for a while. And similar/same? copy was
available on the following site https://www.ntfs.com/exfat-overview.htm

-- 
Pali Rohár
pali.rohar@gmail.com
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