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From: "Michael K. Edwards" <medwards.linux@gmail.com>
To: "Andrew Morton" <akpm@osdl.org>
Cc: "Martin Bligh" <mbligh@mbligh.org>, "Greg KH" <gregkh@suse.de>,
	"Linus Torvalds" <torvalds@osdl.org>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:20:35 -0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <f2b55d220612131420l5f956e05qb10ef233670fb588@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20061213134721.d8ff8c11.akpm@osdl.org>

On 12/13/06, Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:32:50 -0800
> Martin Bligh <mbligh@mbligh.org> wrote:
>
> > So let's come out and ban binary modules, rather than pussyfooting
> > around, if that's what we actually want to do.
>
> Give people 12 months warning (time to work out what they're going to do,
> talk with the legal dept, etc) then make the kernel load only GPL-tagged
> modules.

IIRC, Linus has deliberately and explicitly estopped himself from
claiming that loading a binary-only driver is a GPL violation.  Do you
really want to create an arbitrage opportunity for intermediaries who
undo technical measures that don't match Linus's declared policy or,
in many people's opinion, the law in at least some jurisdictions?
(I'm not going to go all amateur-lawyer on you, but the transcript of
oral argument at the Supreme Court level in Lotus v. Borland makes
really interesting reading no matter where you live or what your
stance is on GPL-and-linking.)

> I think I'd favour that.  It would aid those people who are trying to
> obtain device specs, and who are persuading organisations to GPL their drivers.

I don't think it would.  There is a strong argument that GPL drivers
in the mainline kernel are a good idea on technical and business
grounds.  Making a federal case out of it is a distraction at best.

There is a widespread delusion that closed driver code is an asset in
an accounting sense.  It costs a lot of money to create and even more
to maintain in any kind of usable condition.  As long as managers of
chip development projects get away with shifting some of the real cost
of creating yet another buggy undocumented one-off CPU interface onto
a "software" team in a different cost center, the pressure to label
the code base an intangible asset is overwhelming.  It usually takes a
reorg or two to diffuse the responsibility enough to call it a sunk
cost, at which point someone might be brave enough to argue that
opening it up would save money and/or sell more chips.

As things stand, there is a slippery slope (in a good way) from a
totally-closed, one-off, buggy vendor driver to a GPL'ed driver in the
mainline kernel.  Customers get impatient for drivers that work, the
vendor allows a customer or a mutually acceptable third party to work
on the code, the sky doesn't fall.  There are some situations where
the business strategy of keeping the driver closed is defensible on
both engineering and regulatory/barrier-to-entry grounds, but they're
fairly rare; and some fraction of vendors come around to that view in
time.

> (Whereas the patch which is proposed in this thread hinders those people)

There we agree.

Cheers,
- Michael

  parent reply	other threads:[~2006-12-13 22:20 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 201+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2006-12-13 19:52 [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19 Greg KH
     [not found] ` <1166039585152-git-send-email-greg@kroah.com>
     [not found]   ` <11660395913232-git-send-email-greg@kroah.com>
     [not found]     ` <11660395951158-git-send-email-greg@kroah.com>
     [not found]       ` <11660395998-git-send-email-greg@kroah.com>
2006-12-13 19:52         ` [PATCH 5/14] Driver core: show "initstate" of module Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:52           ` [PATCH 6/14] driver core: delete virtual directory on class_unregister() Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:52             ` [PATCH 7/14] DebugFS : inotify create/mkdir support Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:52               ` [PATCH 8/14] DebugFS : coding style fixes Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                 ` [PATCH 9/14] DebugFS : file/directory creation error handling Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                   ` [PATCH 10/14] DebugFS : more " Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                     ` [PATCH 11/14] DebugFS : file/directory removal fix Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                       ` [PATCH 12/14] Driver core: "platform_driver_probe() can save codespace": save codespace Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                         ` [PATCH 13/14] Driver core: Make platform_device_add_data accept a const pointer Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                           ` [PATCH 14/14] Driver core: deprecate PM_LEGACY, default it to N Greg KH
2006-12-13 20:12 ` [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19 Linus Torvalds
2006-12-13 20:31   ` Greg KH
2006-12-13 20:58     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-13 21:08       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-13 21:15         ` Arjan van de Ven
2006-12-14  9:30           ` Muli Ben-Yehuda
2006-12-14 10:13             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-13 21:36       ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 21:46       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 23:40       ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  8:49       ` Duncan Sands
2006-12-14  9:56         ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 11:51           ` Olivier Galibert
2006-12-14 12:45             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 19:16               ` Olivier Galibert
2006-12-14 12:39           ` Alan
2006-12-14 13:08             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 17:02           ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:17             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 17:57               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-16 20:13             ` Lee Revell
2006-12-16 20:28               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:34           ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-12-14 17:47             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 17:59               ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-12-14 12:27         ` James Courtier-Dutton
2006-12-13 20:38   ` Michael K. Edwards
2006-12-13 21:02     ` Greg KH
2006-12-13 21:32       ` Martin Bligh
2006-12-13 21:47         ` Andrew Morton
2006-12-13 22:09           ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Greg KH
2006-12-14  0:32             ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  0:43               ` Jonathan Corbet
2006-12-14  0:55                 ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  1:00                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14  1:08                     ` Michael K. Edwards
2006-12-14  1:30                   ` Grzegorz Kulewski
2006-12-14  1:58                     ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  4:15                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14  5:39                     ` Martin J. Bligh
2006-12-14  6:01                       ` Hua Zhong
2006-12-14 11:14                         ` Alan
2006-12-14 11:31                           ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 12:42                             ` Alan
2006-12-14 12:54                               ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 16:59                                 ` Greg KH
2006-12-14 18:26                                   ` Alan
2006-12-14 21:16                                     ` Greg KH
2006-12-14 12:55                               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 13:10                                 ` Arjan van de Ven
2006-12-14 17:17                                   ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-17 10:54                                     ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2006-12-14  8:03                       ` James Morris
2006-12-14 15:39                         ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-14 20:08                           ` David Schwartz
2006-12-15 14:05                             ` Paolo Ornati
2006-12-17 10:11                             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2006-12-17 10:56                               ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-12-19 12:57                               ` Marek Wawrzyczny
2006-12-19 13:56                                 ` Diego Calleja
2006-12-19 16:46                                   ` Gene Heskett
2006-12-19 17:11                                     ` Bill Nottingham
2006-12-19 17:24                                       ` Gene Heskett
2006-12-19 17:13                                     ` Diego Calleja
2006-12-20  5:11                                 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-12-20 19:29                                   ` David Schwartz
2006-12-20 20:52                                     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-12-20 21:10                                       ` alan
2006-12-21 15:34                                   ` Marek Wawrzyczny
2006-12-21 16:43                                     ` Horst H. von Brand
2006-12-21 19:28                                     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-12-24  3:11                                       ` Horst H. von Brand
2006-12-20  4:27                               ` Steven Rostedt
2006-12-14 13:07                       ` Dave Jones
2006-12-14 15:05                         ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-14 16:11                           ` Dave Jones
2006-12-14 16:31                             ` Olivier Galibert
2006-12-14 15:36                         ` Martin J. Bligh
2006-12-14 17:20                         ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 14:12                       ` Ben Collins
2006-12-14 15:10                         ` James Courtier-Dutton
2006-12-14 16:09                           ` Dave Jones
2006-12-14 16:36                           ` Ben Collins
2006-12-14 17:34                         ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 19:29                         ` Michael Buesch
2006-12-14 20:19                           ` Ben Collins
2006-12-14  7:24                     ` Jeffrey V. Merkey
2006-12-14  8:21                     ` David Woodhouse
2006-12-14 11:25                       ` Alan
2007-01-22 23:37                         ` dfsg isn't fsf (Re: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19]) Oleg Verych
2006-12-14 14:53                       ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Theodore Tso
2006-12-14 16:52                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 17:33                         ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-14 18:01                           ` Martin J. Bligh
2006-12-14 18:12                             ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-14 18:37                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 18:30                                 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-14  9:34                     ` James Courtier-Dutton
2006-12-24 11:57                       ` Mark Hounschell
2006-12-24 13:22                         ` Sean
2006-12-24 14:42                           ` Mark Hounschell
2006-12-14 10:49                     ` Xavier Bestel
2006-12-14 13:04                     ` Dave Jones
2006-12-14 13:46                     ` Ben Collins
2006-12-14 17:21                       ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:49                         ` Ben Collins
2006-12-14 15:46                     ` Jeff Garzik
2006-12-14 17:03                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 17:08                         ` Chris Wedgwood
2006-12-14 17:38                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2006-12-14 17:52                             ` Chris Wedgwood
2006-12-14 18:09                               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-18 10:28                                 ` GPL only modules Eric W. Biederman
2006-12-14 18:15                               ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Eric Sandeen
2006-12-14 18:39                                 ` Chris Wedgwood
2006-12-14 18:51                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 19:42                                   ` Scott Preece
2006-12-14 19:34                                     ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-15  5:28                                       ` GPL only modules Alexandre Oliva
2006-12-15 10:13                                       ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Eduard Bloch
2006-12-15 17:44                                       ` Dave Neuer
2006-12-18 10:55                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2006-12-18 17:05                                         ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-14 19:49                                     ` Hua Zhong
2006-12-17 10:57                             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2006-12-14 16:17                     ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-14 16:33                       ` Alan
2006-12-14 16:54                         ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-14 17:17                         ` Theodore Tso
2006-12-14 18:18                           ` Alan
2006-12-14 19:51                           ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-21 15:38                             ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-23 11:24                               ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-23 21:36                                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-24  1:07                                   ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-19 15:12                     ` free module selection Markus Elfring
2006-12-14  5:10                   ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Bill Nottingham
2006-12-14  8:48                     ` Greg KH
2006-12-14 14:02                       ` Rik van Riel
2006-12-14 15:42                         ` Chris Friesen
2006-12-14 15:47                         ` Alan
2006-12-14 15:48                           ` Jeff Garzik
2006-12-14 22:21                             ` Dave Airlie
2006-12-14 22:26                               ` Michael Buesch
2006-12-14 22:39                                 ` Dave Airlie
2006-12-14 22:45                                   ` Michael Buesch
2006-12-14 19:32                         ` Bill Nottingham
2006-12-14  5:58                   ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-12-14  7:54                   ` David Schwartz
2006-12-14  8:21                   ` David Woodhouse
2006-12-14 10:36                 ` Alan
2006-12-14 14:57                   ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-24 14:27               ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-24 19:59                 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2006-12-13 22:20           ` Michael K. Edwards [this message]
2006-12-13 22:59             ` [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19 Kyle Moffett
2006-12-13 23:55             ` Alan
2006-12-14  2:11               ` Al Viro
2006-12-14 17:22               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 15:13             ` Rik van Riel
2006-12-13 21:48       ` Michael K. Edwards
2006-12-13 21:03     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16  9:05       ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-16 11:04         ` Jörn Engel
2006-12-17 10:49           ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-13 21:14   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 21:22     ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-13 23:28       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 11:18         ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 11:26           ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:32             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 18:04               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:26           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 20:47             ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-14 22:59               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 23:37                 ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 21:26     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-13 22:14       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 22:30         ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 22:39           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 23:11             ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 23:39               ` Michael K. Edwards
2006-12-14  0:00               ` Alan
2006-12-13 23:56           ` Alan
2006-12-14  0:08             ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  9:15             ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-14 11:33               ` Alan
2006-12-13 22:40         ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 22:45           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 23:15             ` Thomas Gleixner

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