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From: Ben Collins <ben.collins@ubuntu.com>
To: "Martin J. Bligh" <mbligh@mbligh.org>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org>, Greg KH <gregkh@suse.de>,
	Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net>, Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org>,
	"Michael K. Edwards" <medwards.linux@gmail.com>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19]
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:12:25 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <1166105545.6748.212.camel@gullible> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <4580E37F.8000305@mbligh.org>

On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 21:39 -0800, Martin J. Bligh wrote:
> The Ubuntu feisty fawn mess was a dangerous warning bell of where we're
> going. If we don't stand up at some point, and ban binary drivers, we
> will, I fear, end up with an unsustainable ecosystem for Linux when
> binary drivers become pervasive. I don't want to see Linux destroyed
> like that.

Yes, people have been worried about this for years, and to my knowledge,
it seems like things have been getting better with drivers, not worse
(look at Intel). And yet, people want to enforce more and more
restrictions against binary-only drivers, when it appears that we are
already winning.

You can't talk about drivers that don't exist for Linux. Things like
bcm43xx aren't effected by this new restriction for GPL-only drivers.
There's no binary-only driver for it (ndiswrapper doesn't count). If the
hardware vendor doesn't want to write a driver for linux, you can't make
them. You can buy other hardware, but that's about it.

Here's the list of proprietary drivers that are in Ubuntu's restricted
modules package:

	madwifi (closed hal implementation, being replaced in openhal)
	fritz
	ati
	nvidia
	ltmodem (does that even still work?)
	ipw3945d (not a kernel module, but just the daemon)

In over a year that list has only grown by ipw3945d. None of our users
are asking for new proprietary drivers. Believe me, if they needed them,
I'd hear about it. We have more cases of new unsupported hardware than
we do of new hardware with binary-only drivers. This proposed
restriction doesn't fix that.

You know what I think hurts us more than anything? You know what
probably keeps companies from writing drivers or releasing specs? It's
because they know some non-paid kernel hackers out there will eventually
reverse engineer it and write the drivers for them. Free development,
and they didn't even have to release their precious specs.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing reverse engineering, or writing our
own drivers. It's how Linux got started. But the problem isn't as narrow
as people would like to think. And proprietary code isn't a growing
problem. At best, it's just a distraction that will eventually go away
on it's own.

The whole hardware vendor landscape is showing this, and it's not
because we locked down the kernel, it's because we've shown how well we
play with others, and how easy it is to get along with the whole
community. Do we want to destroy this good will?

  parent reply	other threads:[~2006-12-14 14:12 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 239+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2006-12-13 19:52 [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19 Greg KH
     [not found] ` <1166039585152-git-send-email-greg@kroah.com>
     [not found]   ` <11660395913232-git-send-email-greg@kroah.com>
     [not found]     ` <11660395951158-git-send-email-greg@kroah.com>
     [not found]       ` <11660395998-git-send-email-greg@kroah.com>
2006-12-13 19:52         ` [PATCH 5/14] Driver core: show "initstate" of module Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:52           ` [PATCH 6/14] driver core: delete virtual directory on class_unregister() Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:52             ` [PATCH 7/14] DebugFS : inotify create/mkdir support Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:52               ` [PATCH 8/14] DebugFS : coding style fixes Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                 ` [PATCH 9/14] DebugFS : file/directory creation error handling Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                   ` [PATCH 10/14] DebugFS : more " Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                     ` [PATCH 11/14] DebugFS : file/directory removal fix Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                       ` [PATCH 12/14] Driver core: "platform_driver_probe() can save codespace": save codespace Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                         ` [PATCH 13/14] Driver core: Make platform_device_add_data accept a const pointer Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                           ` [PATCH 14/14] Driver core: deprecate PM_LEGACY, default it to N Greg KH
2006-12-13 20:12 ` [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19 Linus Torvalds
2006-12-13 20:31   ` Greg KH
2006-12-13 20:58     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-13 21:08       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-13 21:15         ` Arjan van de Ven
2006-12-14  9:30           ` Muli Ben-Yehuda
2006-12-14 10:13             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-13 21:36       ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 21:46       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 23:40       ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  8:49       ` Duncan Sands
2006-12-14  9:56         ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 11:51           ` Olivier Galibert
2006-12-14 12:45             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 19:16               ` Olivier Galibert
2006-12-14 12:39           ` Alan
2006-12-14 13:08             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 17:02           ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:17             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 17:57               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-16 20:13             ` Lee Revell
2006-12-16 20:28               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:34           ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-12-14 17:47             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 17:59               ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-12-14 12:27         ` James Courtier-Dutton
2006-12-13 20:38   ` Michael K. Edwards
2006-12-13 21:02     ` Greg KH
2006-12-13 21:32       ` Martin Bligh
2006-12-13 21:47         ` Andrew Morton
2006-12-13 22:09           ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Greg KH
2006-12-14  0:32             ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  0:43               ` Jonathan Corbet
2006-12-14  0:55                 ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  1:00                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14  1:08                     ` Michael K. Edwards
2006-12-14  1:30                   ` Grzegorz Kulewski
2006-12-14  1:58                     ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  4:15                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14  5:39                     ` Martin J. Bligh
2006-12-14  6:01                       ` Hua Zhong
2006-12-14 11:14                         ` Alan
2006-12-14 11:31                           ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 12:42                             ` Alan
2006-12-14 12:54                               ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 16:59                                 ` Greg KH
2006-12-14 18:26                                   ` Alan
2006-12-14 21:16                                     ` Greg KH
2006-12-14 12:55                               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 13:10                                 ` Arjan van de Ven
2006-12-14 17:17                                   ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-17 10:54                                     ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2006-12-14  8:03                       ` James Morris
2006-12-14 15:39                         ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-14 20:08                           ` David Schwartz
2006-12-15 14:05                             ` Paolo Ornati
2006-12-17 10:11                             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2006-12-17 10:56                               ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-12-19 12:57                               ` Marek Wawrzyczny
2006-12-19 13:56                                 ` Diego Calleja
2006-12-19 16:46                                   ` Gene Heskett
2006-12-19 17:11                                     ` Bill Nottingham
2006-12-19 17:24                                       ` Gene Heskett
2006-12-19 17:13                                     ` Diego Calleja
2006-12-20  5:11                                 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-12-20 19:29                                   ` David Schwartz
2006-12-20 20:52                                     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-12-20 21:10                                       ` alan
2006-12-21 15:34                                   ` Marek Wawrzyczny
2006-12-21 16:43                                     ` Horst H. von Brand
2006-12-21 19:28                                     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-12-24  3:11                                       ` Horst H. von Brand
2006-12-20  4:27                               ` Steven Rostedt
2006-12-14 13:07                       ` Dave Jones
2006-12-14 15:05                         ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-14 16:11                           ` Dave Jones
2006-12-14 16:31                             ` Olivier Galibert
2006-12-14 15:36                         ` Martin J. Bligh
2006-12-14 17:20                         ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 14:12                       ` Ben Collins [this message]
2006-12-14 15:10                         ` James Courtier-Dutton
2006-12-14 16:09                           ` Dave Jones
2006-12-14 16:36                           ` Ben Collins
2006-12-14 17:34                         ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 19:29                         ` Michael Buesch
2006-12-14 20:19                           ` Ben Collins
2006-12-14  7:24                     ` Jeffrey V. Merkey
2006-12-14  8:21                     ` David Woodhouse
2006-12-14 11:25                       ` Alan
2007-01-22 23:37                         ` dfsg isn't fsf (Re: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19]) Oleg Verych
2006-12-14 14:53                       ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Theodore Tso
2006-12-14 16:52                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 17:33                         ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-14 18:01                           ` Martin J. Bligh
2006-12-14 18:12                             ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-14 18:37                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 18:30                                 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-14  9:34                     ` James Courtier-Dutton
2006-12-24 11:57                       ` Mark Hounschell
2006-12-24 13:22                         ` Sean
2006-12-24 14:42                           ` Mark Hounschell
2006-12-14 10:49                     ` Xavier Bestel
2006-12-14 13:04                     ` Dave Jones
2006-12-14 13:46                     ` Ben Collins
2006-12-14 17:21                       ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:49                         ` Ben Collins
2006-12-14 15:46                     ` Jeff Garzik
2006-12-14 17:03                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 17:08                         ` Chris Wedgwood
2006-12-14 17:38                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2006-12-14 17:52                             ` Chris Wedgwood
2006-12-14 18:09                               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-18 10:28                                 ` GPL only modules Eric W. Biederman
2006-12-14 18:15                               ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Eric Sandeen
2006-12-14 18:39                                 ` Chris Wedgwood
2006-12-14 18:51                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 19:42                                   ` Scott Preece
2006-12-14 19:34                                     ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-15  5:28                                       ` GPL only modules Alexandre Oliva
2006-12-15 10:13                                       ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Eduard Bloch
2006-12-15 17:44                                       ` Dave Neuer
2006-12-18 10:55                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2006-12-18 17:05                                         ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-14 19:49                                     ` Hua Zhong
2006-12-17 10:57                             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2006-12-14 16:17                     ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-14 16:33                       ` Alan
2006-12-14 16:54                         ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-14 17:17                         ` Theodore Tso
2006-12-14 18:18                           ` Alan
2006-12-14 19:51                           ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-21 15:38                             ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-23 11:24                               ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-23 21:36                                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-24  1:07                                   ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-19 15:12                     ` free module selection Markus Elfring
2006-12-14  5:10                   ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Bill Nottingham
2006-12-14  8:48                     ` Greg KH
2006-12-14 14:02                       ` Rik van Riel
2006-12-14 15:42                         ` Chris Friesen
2006-12-14 15:47                         ` Alan
2006-12-14 15:48                           ` Jeff Garzik
2006-12-14 22:21                             ` Dave Airlie
2006-12-14 22:26                               ` Michael Buesch
2006-12-14 22:39                                 ` Dave Airlie
2006-12-14 22:45                                   ` Michael Buesch
2006-12-14 19:32                         ` Bill Nottingham
2006-12-14  5:58                   ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-12-14  7:54                   ` David Schwartz
2006-12-14  8:21                   ` David Woodhouse
2006-12-14 10:36                 ` Alan
2006-12-14 14:57                   ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-24 14:27               ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-24 19:59                 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2006-12-13 22:20           ` [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19 Michael K. Edwards
2006-12-13 22:59             ` Kyle Moffett
2006-12-13 23:55             ` Alan
2006-12-14  2:11               ` Al Viro
2006-12-14 17:22               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 15:13             ` Rik van Riel
2006-12-13 21:48       ` Michael K. Edwards
2006-12-13 21:03     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16  9:05       ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-16 11:04         ` Jörn Engel
2006-12-17 10:49           ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-13 21:14   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 21:22     ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-13 23:28       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 11:18         ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 11:26           ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:32             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 18:04               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:26           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 20:47             ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-14 22:59               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 23:37                 ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 21:26     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-13 22:14       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 22:30         ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 22:39           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 23:11             ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 23:39               ` Michael K. Edwards
2006-12-14  0:00               ` Alan
2006-12-13 23:56           ` Alan
2006-12-14  0:08             ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  9:15             ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-14 11:33               ` Alan
2006-12-13 22:40         ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 22:45           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 23:15             ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-15 23:56 GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] karderio
2006-12-16  0:24 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16  1:27   ` Alan
2006-12-16  1:53     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16  3:59     ` jdow
2006-12-16 17:08     ` David Nicol
2006-12-16  2:32   ` karderio
2006-12-16  2:55     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16  6:43       ` Willy Tarreau
2006-12-16 10:28         ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-12-16 10:50           ` Willy Tarreau
2006-12-16 11:09             ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-12-16 15:15           ` Gene Heskett
2006-12-17 11:04             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2006-12-16 16:33           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16 14:42         ` Theodore Tso
2006-12-16 16:30           ` Willy Tarreau
2006-12-16 20:23             ` Theodore Tso
2006-12-16 21:04               ` Willy Tarreau
2006-12-16 16:54           ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2006-12-16 16:28         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16 16:49           ` Willy Tarreau
2006-12-16 17:20             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16 18:33               ` Dave Jones
2006-12-17  1:56                 ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-17  3:06                   ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-17 20:23                 ` Gerhard Mack
2006-12-21 19:39                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-18 21:04       ` karderio
2006-12-18 22:05         ` Theodore Tso
2006-12-18 22:11         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-18 22:42           ` Scott Preece
2006-12-16 18:27 Ricardo Galli
2006-12-16 21:01 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-17  0:22   ` Ricardo Galli
2006-12-17  4:10     ` Theodore Tso
2006-12-18  2:43 Brendan Scott
2006-12-22 11:48 Niklas Steinkamp

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