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From: James Courtier-Dutton <James@superbug.co.uk>
To: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org>
Cc: Greg KH <gregkh@suse.de>, Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org>, Martin Bligh <mbligh@mbligh.org>,
	"Michael K. Edwards" <medwards.linux@gmail.com>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19]
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:34:30 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <45811AA6.1070508@superbug.co.uk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612131954530.5718@woody.osdl.org>

Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006, Greg KH wrote:
>> Numerous kernel developers feel that loading non-GPL drivers into the
>> kernel violates the license of the kernel and their copyright.  Because
>> of this, a one year notice for everyone to address any non-GPL
>> compatible modules has been set.
> 
> Btw, I really think this is shortsighted.
> 
> It will only result in _exactly_ the crap we were just trying to avoid, 
> namely stupid "shell game" drivers that don't actually help anything at 
> all, and move code into user space instead.
> 
> What was the point again?
> 
> Was the point to alienate people by showing how we're less about the 
> technology than about licenses?
> 
> Was the point to show that we think we can extend our reach past derived 
> work boundaries by just saying so? 
> 
> The silly thing is, the people who tend to push most for this are the 
> exact SAME people who say that the RIAA etc should not be able to tell 
> people what to do with the music copyrights that they own, and that the 
> DMCA is bad because it puts technical limits over the rights expressly 
> granted by copyright law.
> 
> Doesn't anybody else see that as being hypocritical?
> 
> So it's ok when we do it, but bad when other people do it? Somehow I'm not 
> surprised, but I still think it's sad how you guys are showing a marked 
> two-facedness about this.
> 
> The fact is, the reason I don't think we should force the issue is very 
> simple: copyright law is simply _better_off_ when you honor the admittedly 
> gray issue of "derived work". It's gray. It's not black-and-white. But 
> being gray is _good_. Putting artificial black-and-white technical 
> counter-measures is actually bad. It's bad when the RIAA does it, it's bad 
> when anybody else does it.
> 
> If a module arguably isn't a derived work, we simply shouldn't try to say 
> that its authors have to conform to our worldview.
> 
> We should make decisions on TECHNICAL MERIT. And this one is clearly being 
> pushed on anything but.
> 

I agree with Linus on these points. The kernel should not be enforcing 
these issues. Leave the lawyers to do that bit. If companies want to 
play in the "Grey Area", then it is at their own risk. Binary drivers 
are already difficult and expensive for the companies because they have 
to keep updating them as we change the kernel versions. If they do open 
source drivers, we update them for them as we change the kernel 
versions, so it works out cheaper for the companies involved.

The open source community tends to be able to reverse engineer all 
drivers eventually anyway in order to ensure compatibility with all 
kernel versions and also ensure that the code is well reviewed and 
therefore contains fewer security loopholes, e.g. Atheros Wireless open 
source HAL. This also tends to make it rather pointless for companies to 
do binary drivers, because all it does is delay the open source version 
of the driver and increase the security risk to users. One other example 
I have, is that I reverse engineered a sound card driver so that we had 
an open source driver for it. Once I had manually documented the sound 
card, so we had details of all the registers and how to use them, the 
manufacturer finally sent the datasheet to me! A bit late really, but it 
certainly did encourage the manufacturer to pass datasheets to 
developers. I now have a large array of datasheets from this 
manufacturer that save me having to reverse engineer other sound cards 
in their range.
Making binary drivers is therefore not a viable way to protect IP. We 
are slowly removing the excuses that companies can hide behind as 
reasons for not releasing datasheets to open source driver developers.

James


  parent reply	other threads:[~2006-12-24  9:36 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 239+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2006-12-13 19:52 [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19 Greg KH
     [not found] ` <1166039585152-git-send-email-greg@kroah.com>
     [not found]   ` <11660395913232-git-send-email-greg@kroah.com>
     [not found]     ` <11660395951158-git-send-email-greg@kroah.com>
     [not found]       ` <11660395998-git-send-email-greg@kroah.com>
2006-12-13 19:52         ` [PATCH 5/14] Driver core: show "initstate" of module Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:52           ` [PATCH 6/14] driver core: delete virtual directory on class_unregister() Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:52             ` [PATCH 7/14] DebugFS : inotify create/mkdir support Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:52               ` [PATCH 8/14] DebugFS : coding style fixes Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                 ` [PATCH 9/14] DebugFS : file/directory creation error handling Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                   ` [PATCH 10/14] DebugFS : more " Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                     ` [PATCH 11/14] DebugFS : file/directory removal fix Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                       ` [PATCH 12/14] Driver core: "platform_driver_probe() can save codespace": save codespace Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                         ` [PATCH 13/14] Driver core: Make platform_device_add_data accept a const pointer Greg KH
2006-12-13 19:53                           ` [PATCH 14/14] Driver core: deprecate PM_LEGACY, default it to N Greg KH
2006-12-13 20:12 ` [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19 Linus Torvalds
2006-12-13 20:31   ` Greg KH
2006-12-13 20:58     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-13 21:08       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-13 21:15         ` Arjan van de Ven
2006-12-14  9:30           ` Muli Ben-Yehuda
2006-12-14 10:13             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-13 21:36       ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 21:46       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 23:40       ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  8:49       ` Duncan Sands
2006-12-14  9:56         ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 11:51           ` Olivier Galibert
2006-12-14 12:45             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 19:16               ` Olivier Galibert
2006-12-14 12:39           ` Alan
2006-12-14 13:08             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 17:02           ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:17             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 17:57               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-16 20:13             ` Lee Revell
2006-12-16 20:28               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:34           ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-12-14 17:47             ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 17:59               ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-12-14 12:27         ` James Courtier-Dutton
2006-12-13 20:38   ` Michael K. Edwards
2006-12-13 21:02     ` Greg KH
2006-12-13 21:32       ` Martin Bligh
2006-12-13 21:47         ` Andrew Morton
2006-12-13 22:09           ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Greg KH
2006-12-14  0:32             ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  0:43               ` Jonathan Corbet
2006-12-14  0:55                 ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  1:00                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14  1:08                     ` Michael K. Edwards
2006-12-14  1:30                   ` Grzegorz Kulewski
2006-12-14  1:58                     ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  4:15                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14  5:39                     ` Martin J. Bligh
2006-12-14  6:01                       ` Hua Zhong
2006-12-14 11:14                         ` Alan
2006-12-14 11:31                           ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 12:42                             ` Alan
2006-12-14 12:54                               ` Hans-Jürgen Koch
2006-12-14 16:59                                 ` Greg KH
2006-12-14 18:26                                   ` Alan
2006-12-14 21:16                                     ` Greg KH
2006-12-14 12:55                               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 13:10                                 ` Arjan van de Ven
2006-12-14 17:17                                   ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-17 10:54                                     ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2006-12-14  8:03                       ` James Morris
2006-12-14 15:39                         ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-14 20:08                           ` David Schwartz
2006-12-15 14:05                             ` Paolo Ornati
2006-12-17 10:11                             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2006-12-17 10:56                               ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-12-19 12:57                               ` Marek Wawrzyczny
2006-12-19 13:56                                 ` Diego Calleja
2006-12-19 16:46                                   ` Gene Heskett
2006-12-19 17:11                                     ` Bill Nottingham
2006-12-19 17:24                                       ` Gene Heskett
2006-12-19 17:13                                     ` Diego Calleja
2006-12-20  5:11                                 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-12-20 19:29                                   ` David Schwartz
2006-12-20 20:52                                     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-12-20 21:10                                       ` alan
2006-12-21 15:34                                   ` Marek Wawrzyczny
2006-12-21 16:43                                     ` Horst H. von Brand
2006-12-21 19:28                                     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-12-24  3:11                                       ` Horst H. von Brand
2006-12-20  4:27                               ` Steven Rostedt
2006-12-14 13:07                       ` Dave Jones
2006-12-14 15:05                         ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-14 16:11                           ` Dave Jones
2006-12-14 16:31                             ` Olivier Galibert
2006-12-14 15:36                         ` Martin J. Bligh
2006-12-14 17:20                         ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 14:12                       ` Ben Collins
2006-12-14 15:10                         ` James Courtier-Dutton
2006-12-14 16:09                           ` Dave Jones
2006-12-14 16:36                           ` Ben Collins
2006-12-14 17:34                         ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 19:29                         ` Michael Buesch
2006-12-14 20:19                           ` Ben Collins
2006-12-14  7:24                     ` Jeffrey V. Merkey
2006-12-14  8:21                     ` David Woodhouse
2006-12-14 11:25                       ` Alan
2007-01-22 23:37                         ` dfsg isn't fsf (Re: GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19]) Oleg Verych
2006-12-14 14:53                       ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Theodore Tso
2006-12-14 16:52                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 17:33                         ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-14 18:01                           ` Martin J. Bligh
2006-12-14 18:12                             ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-14 18:37                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 18:30                                 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-14  9:34                     ` James Courtier-Dutton [this message]
2006-12-24 11:57                       ` Mark Hounschell
2006-12-24 13:22                         ` Sean
2006-12-24 14:42                           ` Mark Hounschell
2006-12-14 10:49                     ` Xavier Bestel
2006-12-14 13:04                     ` Dave Jones
2006-12-14 13:46                     ` Ben Collins
2006-12-14 17:21                       ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:49                         ` Ben Collins
2006-12-14 15:46                     ` Jeff Garzik
2006-12-14 17:03                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 17:08                         ` Chris Wedgwood
2006-12-14 17:38                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2006-12-14 17:52                             ` Chris Wedgwood
2006-12-14 18:09                               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-18 10:28                                 ` GPL only modules Eric W. Biederman
2006-12-14 18:15                               ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Eric Sandeen
2006-12-14 18:39                                 ` Chris Wedgwood
2006-12-14 18:51                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 19:42                                   ` Scott Preece
2006-12-14 19:34                                     ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-15  5:28                                       ` GPL only modules Alexandre Oliva
2006-12-15 10:13                                       ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Eduard Bloch
2006-12-15 17:44                                       ` Dave Neuer
2006-12-18 10:55                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2006-12-18 17:05                                         ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-12-14 19:49                                     ` Hua Zhong
2006-12-17 10:57                             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2006-12-14 16:17                     ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-14 16:33                       ` Alan
2006-12-14 16:54                         ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-14 17:17                         ` Theodore Tso
2006-12-14 18:18                           ` Alan
2006-12-14 19:51                           ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-21 15:38                             ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-23 11:24                               ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-23 21:36                                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-24  1:07                                   ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-19 15:12                     ` free module selection Markus Elfring
2006-12-14  5:10                   ` GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] Bill Nottingham
2006-12-14  8:48                     ` Greg KH
2006-12-14 14:02                       ` Rik van Riel
2006-12-14 15:42                         ` Chris Friesen
2006-12-14 15:47                         ` Alan
2006-12-14 15:48                           ` Jeff Garzik
2006-12-14 22:21                             ` Dave Airlie
2006-12-14 22:26                               ` Michael Buesch
2006-12-14 22:39                                 ` Dave Airlie
2006-12-14 22:45                                   ` Michael Buesch
2006-12-14 19:32                         ` Bill Nottingham
2006-12-14  5:58                   ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-12-14  7:54                   ` David Schwartz
2006-12-14  8:21                   ` David Woodhouse
2006-12-14 10:36                 ` Alan
2006-12-14 14:57                   ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-24 14:27               ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-24 19:59                 ` Dmitry Torokhov
2006-12-13 22:20           ` [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19 Michael K. Edwards
2006-12-13 22:59             ` Kyle Moffett
2006-12-13 23:55             ` Alan
2006-12-14  2:11               ` Al Viro
2006-12-14 17:22               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 15:13             ` Rik van Riel
2006-12-13 21:48       ` Michael K. Edwards
2006-12-13 21:03     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16  9:05       ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-16 11:04         ` Jörn Engel
2006-12-17 10:49           ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-13 21:14   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 21:22     ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-13 23:28       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 11:18         ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 11:26           ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:32             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 18:04               ` Jan Engelhardt
2006-12-14 17:26           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 20:47             ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-14 22:59               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-14 23:37                 ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 21:26     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-13 22:14       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 22:30         ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 22:39           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 23:11             ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 23:39               ` Michael K. Edwards
2006-12-14  0:00               ` Alan
2006-12-13 23:56           ` Alan
2006-12-14  0:08             ` Greg KH
2006-12-14  9:15             ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-14 11:33               ` Alan
2006-12-13 22:40         ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-13 22:45           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-12-13 23:15             ` Thomas Gleixner
2006-12-15 23:56 GPL only modules [was Re: [GIT PATCH] more Driver core patches for 2.6.19] karderio
2006-12-16  0:24 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16  1:27   ` Alan
2006-12-16  1:53     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16  3:59     ` jdow
2006-12-16 17:08     ` David Nicol
2006-12-16  2:32   ` karderio
2006-12-16  2:55     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16  6:43       ` Willy Tarreau
2006-12-16 10:28         ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-12-16 10:50           ` Willy Tarreau
2006-12-16 11:09             ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-12-16 15:15           ` Gene Heskett
2006-12-17 11:04             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2006-12-16 16:33           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16 14:42         ` Theodore Tso
2006-12-16 16:30           ` Willy Tarreau
2006-12-16 20:23             ` Theodore Tso
2006-12-16 21:04               ` Willy Tarreau
2006-12-16 16:54           ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2006-12-16 16:28         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16 16:49           ` Willy Tarreau
2006-12-16 17:20             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-16 18:33               ` Dave Jones
2006-12-17  1:56                 ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-17  3:06                   ` Adrian Bunk
2006-12-17 20:23                 ` Gerhard Mack
2006-12-21 19:39                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-12-18 21:04       ` karderio
2006-12-18 22:05         ` Theodore Tso
2006-12-18 22:11         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-18 22:42           ` Scott Preece
2006-12-16 18:27 Ricardo Galli
2006-12-16 21:01 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-12-17  0:22   ` Ricardo Galli
2006-12-17  4:10     ` Theodore Tso
2006-12-18  2:43 Brendan Scott
2006-12-22 11:48 Niklas Steinkamp

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