From: Alexey Kardashevskiy <aik@ozlabs.ru>
To: Paolo Bonzini <pbonzini@redhat.com>,
David Gibson <david@gibson.dropbear.id.au>
Cc: Christian Borntraeger <borntraeger@de.ibm.com>,
Thomas Huth <thuth@redhat.com>,
"qemu-devel@nongnu.org" <qemu-devel@nongnu.org>,
Cornelia Huck <conny@cornelia-huck.de>,
Stefano Garzarella <sgarzare@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: VW ELF loader
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2020 09:36:06 +1100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <d63ba962-ffbb-9f27-34fb-657188e90194@ozlabs.ru> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <8420784f-b4c7-9864-8534-b94dbc5f74ff@redhat.com>
On 04/02/2020 02:08, Paolo Bonzini wrote:
> On 03/02/20 11:58, Alexey Kardashevskiy wrote:
>>>> So really, the question isn't whether we implement things in firmware
>>>> or in qemu. It's whether we implement the firmware functionality as
>>>> guest cpu code, which needs to be coded to work with a limited
>>>> environment, built with a special toolchain, then emulated with TCG.
>>>> Or, do we just implement it in normal C code, with a full C library,
>>>> and existing device and backend abstractions inside qemu.
>>>
>>> ... which is adding almost 2000 lines of new code to the host despite
>>> the following limitations:
>>>
>>>> 4. no networking in OF CI at all;
>>>> 5. no vga;
>>>> 6. no disk partitions in CI, i.e. no commas to select a partition -
>>>> this relies on a bootloader accessing the disk as a whole;
>>
>> This is not going to be a lot really, especially supporting partitions -
>> the code is practically there already as I needed it to find GRUB, and
>> GRUB does the rest asking very little from the firmware to work.
>
> What partition formats would have to be supported?
MBR, GPT, is there anything else? "Support" is limited to converting a
number after command to [start, size] couple. I am not going for file
systems.
> But honestly I'm
> more worried about the networking part.
Fair enough.
>> btw what is the common way of netbooting in x86? NIC ROM or GRUB (but
>> this would be a disk anyway)? Can we consider having a precompiled GRUB
>> image somewhere in pc-bios/ to use for netboot? Or Uboot would do (it is
>> already in pc-bios/, no?), I suppose?
>
> GRUB netboot support is almost never used.
Huh. We use yaboot here in Ozlabs for netbooting quite a lot.
> There are three cases:
>
> - QEMU BIOS: the NIC ROM contain iPXE, which is both the driver code and
> the boot loader (which chains into GRUB).
>
> - Bare metal BIOS: same, but the boot loader is minimal so most of the
> time iPXE is loaded via TFTP and reuses the NIC ROM's driver code.
>
> - UEFI: the NIC ROM contains driver code only and the firmware does the
> rest.
Well, we never really had this luxury of NIC ROM, there were a couple of
NICs with fcode which never really worked in SLOF.
Oh well, this is probably the time to look into netbooting then.
>>> In other words you're not dropping SLOF, you're really dropping
>>> OpenFirmware completely.
>>
>> What is the exact benefit of having OpenFirmware's "interpret"?
>
> None, besides being able to play space invaders written in Forth. I'm
> not against dropping most OpenFirmware capabilities, I'm against adding
> a limited (or broken depending on what you're trying to do) version that
> runs in the host.
>
> Yes, SLOF is big and slow. petitboot is not petit at all either, and
> has the disadvantage that you have to find a way to run GRUB afterwards.
> But would a similarly minimal OF implementation (no network, almost no
> interpret so no Forth, device tree built entirely in the host, etc.)
The device tree is almost completely built in QEMU these days anyway,
twice during normal boot.
> be just as big and slow?
I doubt. We will be getting rid of unnecessary drivers, bus scanning
code (SCSI, PCI), device tree synchronization.
--
Alexey
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-02-03 22:38 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 48+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-02-01 13:39 VW ELF loader Alexey Kardashevskiy
2020-02-01 19:04 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-02 11:51 ` Alexey Kardashevskiy
2020-02-02 17:38 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-03 1:31 ` David Gibson
2020-02-03 1:28 ` David Gibson
2020-02-03 9:12 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-03 9:50 ` David Gibson
2020-02-03 10:58 ` Alexey Kardashevskiy
2020-02-03 15:08 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-03 22:36 ` Alexey Kardashevskiy [this message]
2020-02-03 22:56 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-03 23:19 ` Alexey Kardashevskiy
2020-02-03 23:26 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-04 6:16 ` Thomas Huth
2020-02-04 8:54 ` Cornelia Huck
2020-02-04 9:20 ` Restrictions of libnet (was: Re: VW ELF loader) Thomas Huth
2020-02-04 9:32 ` Thomas Huth
2020-02-04 9:33 ` Michal Suchánek
2020-02-05 5:30 ` David Gibson
2020-02-05 6:24 ` Thomas Huth
2020-02-10 7:55 ` David Gibson
2020-02-10 9:39 ` Michal Suchánek
2020-02-13 3:16 ` David Gibson
2020-02-04 23:18 ` VW ELF loader Alexey Kardashevskiy
2020-02-05 6:06 ` David Gibson
2020-02-05 9:28 ` Cornelia Huck
2020-02-06 4:47 ` David Gibson
2020-02-06 8:27 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-06 23:17 ` Alexey Kardashevskiy
2020-02-06 23:45 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-10 7:30 ` David Gibson
2020-02-10 10:37 ` Peter Maydell
2020-02-10 11:25 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-14 3:23 ` David Gibson
2020-02-10 7:28 ` David Gibson
2020-02-10 11:26 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-14 4:02 ` David Gibson
2020-02-05 5:58 ` David Gibson
2020-02-06 8:29 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-06 23:23 ` Alexey Kardashevskiy
2020-02-06 23:46 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-10 0:31 ` Alexey Kardashevskiy
2020-02-13 1:43 ` Alexey Kardashevskiy
2020-02-13 10:17 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-14 0:01 ` Alexey Kardashevskiy
2020-02-14 2:30 ` David Gibson
2020-02-04 9:40 ` Christian Borntraeger
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