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From: Jason Gunthorpe <jgunthorpe-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
To: Mark Rutland <mark.rutland-5wv7dgnIgG8@public.gmane.org>
Cc: Olof Johansson <olof-nZhT3qVonbNeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>,
	Grant Likely
	<grant.likely-s3s/WqlpOiPyB63q8FvJNQ@public.gmane.org>,
	"devicetree-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org"
	<devicetree-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org>,
	Arnd Bergmann <arnd-r2nGTMty4D4@public.gmane.org>,
	"linux-arm-kernel-IAPFreCvJWM7uuMidbF8XUB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org"
	<linux-arm-kernel-IAPFreCvJWM7uuMidbF8XUB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: ACPI vs DT at runtime
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 11:28:26 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20131115182826.GB14920@obsidianresearch.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20131115095717.GC1709-NuALmloUBlrZROr8t4l/smS4ubULX0JqMm0uRHvK7Nw@public.gmane.org>

On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 09:57:17AM +0000, Mark Rutland wrote:

> first-class citizen. We don't need to modify every driver and subsystem
> to support ACPI, only those necessary to support the minimal set of
> platforms using ACPI. ACPI is new in the arm space, and we can enforce
> quality standards on ACPI _now_ above what we're allowing for DT, and
> avoid future problems.

I think to replicate the kind of 'success' ACPI sees in x86-land you
really need to push back on the HW folks and limit what drivers will
be supported on ACPI systems.

ACPI should be coupled with a standard basic HW environment -
analogous to the stable APIC, PCI and HPET standards we have in
x86. (ARMv8 only?)

Other essential devices (ethernet, graphics, etc) should fit within
the PCI framework. Again, mostly like x86.

If you don't fit in that model then use DT.

If you need the kernel to control clk, pinctrl, regulator, etc then
you should be using DT.

If you need a special one-off HW driver to boot to a console then you
should be using DT ;)

DT is here, it is working, it seems viable to set a strong goal for
ACPI and shift everything else to DT:

 ACPI systems should have the broad compatability we see in x86. New
 hardware bought today should still boot a 3 year old OS.

Jason
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WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: jgunthorpe@obsidianresearch.com (Jason Gunthorpe)
To: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org
Subject: ACPI vs DT at runtime
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 11:28:26 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20131115182826.GB14920@obsidianresearch.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20131115095717.GC1709@e106331-lin.cambridge.arm.com>

On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 09:57:17AM +0000, Mark Rutland wrote:

> first-class citizen. We don't need to modify every driver and subsystem
> to support ACPI, only those necessary to support the minimal set of
> platforms using ACPI. ACPI is new in the arm space, and we can enforce
> quality standards on ACPI _now_ above what we're allowing for DT, and
> avoid future problems.

I think to replicate the kind of 'success' ACPI sees in x86-land you
really need to push back on the HW folks and limit what drivers will
be supported on ACPI systems.

ACPI should be coupled with a standard basic HW environment -
analogous to the stable APIC, PCI and HPET standards we have in
x86. (ARMv8 only?)

Other essential devices (ethernet, graphics, etc) should fit within
the PCI framework. Again, mostly like x86.

If you don't fit in that model then use DT.

If you need the kernel to control clk, pinctrl, regulator, etc then
you should be using DT.

If you need a special one-off HW driver to boot to a console then you
should be using DT ;)

DT is here, it is working, it seems viable to set a strong goal for
ACPI and shift everything else to DT:

 ACPI systems should have the broad compatability we see in x86. New
 hardware bought today should still boot a 3 year old OS.

Jason

  parent reply	other threads:[~2013-11-15 18:28 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 186+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2013-11-15  1:44 ACPI vs DT at runtime Olof Johansson
2013-11-15  1:44 ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-15  9:57 ` Mark Rutland
2013-11-15  9:57   ` Mark Rutland
     [not found]   ` <20131115175241. GB27174@quad.lixom.net>
     [not found]   ` <20131115095717.GC1709-NuALmloUBlrZROr8t4l/smS4ubULX0JqMm0uRHvK7Nw@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-15 17:52     ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-15 17:52       ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-15 18:13       ` David Goodenough
2013-11-21 16:15         ` Grant Likely
2013-11-18 17:47       ` Jon Masters
2013-11-18 17:47         ` Jon Masters
     [not found]       ` <20131115175241.GB27174-O5ziIzlqnXUVNXGz7ipsyg@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-15 18:08         ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-11-15 18:08           ` Russell King - ARM Linux
     [not found]           ` <20131115180832.GR16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-15 18:42             ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-15 18:42               ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-15 19:56             ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-15 19:56               ` Arnd Bergmann
     [not found]               ` <201311152056.47846.arnd-r2nGTMty4D4@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-15 23:21                 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-11-15 23:21                   ` Russell King - ARM Linux
     [not found]                   ` <20131115232109.GT16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 15:05                     ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-18 15:05                       ` Arnd Bergmann
     [not found]                       ` <201311181605.37300.arnd-r2nGTMty4D4@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 15:19                         ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-11-18 15:19                           ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-11-18 15:46                           ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-18 15:46                             ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-21 16:10                         ` Grant Likely
2013-11-21 16:10                           ` Grant Likely
     [not found]                           ` <20131121161037.C528CC406A3-WNowdnHR2B42iJbIjFUEsiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-21 18:26                             ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-21 18:26                               ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-21 19:40                               ` Mark Brown
2013-11-21 19:40                                 ` Mark Brown
     [not found]                       ` <20131118151900.GF16735@ n2100.arm.linux.org.uk>
     [not found]                         ` <20131118151900.GF16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-21 16:11                           ` Grant Likely
2013-11-21 16:11                             ` Grant Likely
2013-11-21 16:00                     ` Grant Likely
2013-11-21 16:00                       ` Grant Likely
2013-11-19 11:30         ` Mark Rutland
2013-11-19 11:30           ` Mark Rutland
2013-11-19 11:35           ` Mark Rutland
2013-11-19 11:35             ` Mark Rutland
     [not found]             ` <20131119113557.GI5914-NuALmloUBlrZROr8t4l/smS4ubULX0JqMm0uRHvK7Nw@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-19 11:51               ` Leif Lindholm
2013-11-19 11:51                 ` Leif Lindholm
     [not found]           ` <20131119113015.GH5914-NuALmloUBlrZROr8t4l/smS4ubULX0JqMm0uRHvK7Nw@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-19 11:57             ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-11-19 11:57               ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-11-19 13:56             ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-11-19 13:56               ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-11-19 14:38               ` Mark Rutland
2013-11-19 14:38                 ` Mark Rutland
     [not found]                 ` <20131119143840.GN5914-NuALmloUBlrZROr8t4l/smS4ubULX0JqMm0uRHvK7Nw@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-19 14:59                   ` Leif Lindholm
2013-11-19 14:59                     ` Leif Lindholm
2013-11-19 18:23                   ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-19 18:23                     ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-19 14:05             ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-19 14:05               ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-19 15:21               ` Mark Rutland
2013-11-19 15:21                 ` Mark Rutland
     [not found]                 ` <20131119152157.GO5914-NuALmloUBlrZROr8t4l/smS4ubULX0JqMm0uRHvK7Nw@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-19 16:19                   ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-19 16:19                     ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-19 18:34                   ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-19 18:34                     ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-19 19:06                   ` Tom Rini
2013-11-19 19:06                     ` Tom Rini
2013-11-19 18:19             ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-19 18:19               ` Olof Johansson
     [not found]               ` <20131119181959.GA20967-O5ziIzlqnXUVNXGz7ipsyg@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-21 16:37                 ` Grant Likely
2013-11-21 16:37                   ` Grant Likely
2013-11-21 16:29             ` Grant Likely
2013-11-21 16:29               ` Grant Likely
     [not found]               ` <20131121170122. GB22960@srcf.ucam.org>
     [not found]                 ` <20131121170122.GB22960-1xO5oi07KQx4cg9Nei1l7Q@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-21 18:38                   ` Grant Likely
2013-11-21 18:38                     ` Grant Likely
     [not found]               ` <20131121162944.F087FC406A3-WNowdnHR2B42iJbIjFUEsiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-21 17:01                 ` Matthew Garrett
2013-11-21 17:01                   ` Matthew Garrett
2013-11-21 17:58                 ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-21 17:58                   ` Olof Johansson
     [not found]                   ` <20131121175822.GA9590-O5ziIzlqnXUVNXGz7ipsyg@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-21 18:19                     ` Matthew Garrett
2013-11-21 18:19                       ` Matthew Garrett
2013-11-21 18:33                     ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-21 18:33                       ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-21 18:54                     ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-11-21 18:54                       ` Russell King - ARM Linux
     [not found]                       ` <20131121185408.GX16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-21 18:59                         ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-21 18:59                           ` Olof Johansson
     [not found]                           ` <CAOesGMgzUSMDy99XojipfRd5OM88UhfbCYO0aoc5m-Q8Fwnddg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-21 19:01                             ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-11-21 19:01                               ` Russell King - ARM Linux
     [not found]                               ` <20131121190126.GZ16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-21 19:31                                 ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-21 19:31                                   ` Olof Johansson
     [not found]                       ` < CAOesGMgzUSMDy99XojipfRd5OM88UhfbCYO0aoc5m-Q8Fwnddg@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                         ` < 20131121190126.GZ16735@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk>
     [not found]                           ` < CAOesGMgxGq1Zmo+Dq-Rmy2F02-=12yUzB0AKn35yK2j3CacNRQ@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                             ` <CAOesGMgxGq1Zmo+Dq-Rmy2F02-=12yUzB0AKn35yK2j3CacNRQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-21 20:44                               ` Grant Likely
2013-11-21 20:44                                 ` Grant Likely
2013-11-21 18:53                 ` Mark Brown
2013-11-21 18:53                   ` Mark Brown
2013-11-15 18:28     ` Jason Gunthorpe [this message]
2013-11-15 18:28       ` Jason Gunthorpe
     [not found]       ` <20131115182826.GB14920-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-15 18:57         ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-15 18:57           ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-20 13:49     ` Grant Likely
2013-11-20 13:49       ` Grant Likely
     [not found]       ` <20131120134942.95DBFC4079D-WNowdnHR2B42iJbIjFUEsiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-20 17:43         ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-11-20 17:43           ` Stefano Stabellini
     [not found]           ` <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201737410.3198-7Z66fg9igcxYtxbxJUhB2Dgeux46jI+i@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-20 17:47             ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-20 17:47               ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-18  5:19   ` Jon Masters
2013-11-18  5:26     ` Jon Masters
     [not found]       ` <5289A4F3.5040203-Zp4isUonpHBD60Wz+7aTrA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 19:25         ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-18 19:25           ` Olof Johansson
     [not found]           ` <20131118192552.GD5886-O5ziIzlqnXUVNXGz7ipsyg@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 20:43             ` Jon Masters
2013-11-18 20:43               ` Jon Masters
     [not found]               ` <528A7BFD.4020303-Zp4isUonpHBD60Wz+7aTrA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 21:25                 ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-18 21:25                   ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-18  7:22     ` Richard Cochran
2013-11-18 13:55     ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-11-18 15:00     ` Mark Brown
     [not found]       ` <20131118150052.GC24408-GFdadSzt00ze9xe1eoZjHA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 19:13         ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-18 19:13           ` Olof Johansson
     [not found]           ` <20131118191336.GB5886-O5ziIzlqnXUVNXGz7ipsyg@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-19  9:12             ` Richard Cochran
2013-11-19  9:12               ` Richard Cochran
2013-11-19 18:48               ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-19 18:48                 ` Olof Johansson
     [not found]                 ` <20131119184827.GD20967-O5ziIzlqnXUVNXGz7ipsyg@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-20  6:40                   ` Richard Cochran
2013-11-20  6:40                     ` Richard Cochran
2013-11-21 18:16                     ` Grant Likely
2013-11-21 18:16                       ` Grant Likely
2013-11-21 19:21                     ` Russell King - ARM Linux
2013-11-21 19:21                       ` Russell King - ARM Linux
     [not found]                     ` < 20131121192136.GA16735@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk>
     [not found]                       ` <20131121192136.GA16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-21 20:47                         ` Grant Likely
2013-11-21 20:47                           ` Grant Likely
     [not found]                           ` <20131121204704.E4487C40753-WNowdnHR2B42iJbIjFUEsiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-22 11:43                             ` Catalin Marinas
2013-11-22 11:43                               ` Catalin Marinas
     [not found]                               ` <CAHkRjk5MstjD9JFk+co8k89i8geJBmSF6uObhGdmWSe0GJHo8g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-22 12:00                                 ` Pantelis Antoniou
2013-11-22 12:00                                   ` Pantelis Antoniou
     [not found]                                   ` <97692EF2-013E-4E4B-BC16-E0915D67EFEC-wVdstyuyKrO8r51toPun2/C9HSW9iNxf@public.gmane.org>
2014-05-05  7:06                                     ` Alexander Holler
2014-05-05  7:06                                       ` Alexander Holler
     [not found]                                       ` <53673866.9000105-SXC+2es9fhnfWeYVQQPykw@public.gmane.org>
2014-05-05 14:41                                         ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-05 14:41                                           ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-05 15:29                                           ` Alexander Holler
2014-05-05 15:29                                             ` Alexander Holler
     [not found]                                             ` <5367AE6B.3010105-SXC+2es9fhnfWeYVQQPykw@public.gmane.org>
2014-05-05 17:29                                               ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-05 17:29                                                 ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-06 15:37                                             ` Grant Likely
2014-05-06 15:37                                               ` Grant Likely
2014-05-06 15:27                                       ` Grant Likely
2014-05-06 15:27                                         ` Grant Likely
     [not found]                                         ` <20140506152725.E5B90C40959-WNowdnHR2B42iJbIjFUEsiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
2014-05-06 16:32                                           ` Olof Johansson
2014-05-06 16:32                                             ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-18 15:28     ` Rob Herring
     [not found]     ` <5289A356.4060004-Zp4isUonpHBD60Wz+7aTrA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 19:09       ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-18 19:09         ` Olof Johansson
     [not found]         ` <20131118190929.GA5886-O5ziIzlqnXUVNXGz7ipsyg@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 20:54           ` Jon Masters
2013-11-18 20:54             ` Jon Masters
     [not found]             ` <528A7EA0.9050101-Zp4isUonpHBD60Wz+7aTrA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 21:50               ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-18 21:50                 ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-18 21:32           ` Grant Likely
2013-11-18 21:32             ` Grant Likely
2013-11-18 22:47             ` David Goodenough
2013-11-19 12:48               ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-19 12:48                 ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-19 13:34                 ` David Goodenough
2013-11-19 16:52                   ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-21 18:23               ` Grant Likely
2013-11-19 14:33     ` Grant Likely
     [not found] ` <CAOesGMjKeRb=fFJM0MabDihbEiCGM4EqW9D5i_6-RFxTnpB4Qw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-15 20:58   ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-15 20:58     ` Arnd Bergmann
     [not found]     ` <201311152158.32644.arnd-r2nGTMty4D4@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-15 21:44       ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-15 21:44         ` Olof Johansson
     [not found]         ` <CAOesGMhkCn2zeJj_ZZAZu_wJya-4evWEqNHpVJEpjxzWHVWY3A-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-17 17:18           ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-11-17 17:18             ` Stefano Stabellini
     [not found]             ` <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311171705130.4714-7Z66fg9igcxYtxbxJUhB2Dgeux46jI+i@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-17 18:10               ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-17 18:10                 ` Arnd Bergmann
     [not found]                 ` < CAOesGMiYyOcvr3Aqs-p8zc=XDwJM9NZtNxtxrTZssc6F=siZCw@mail.gmail.com>
2013-11-17 22:20                 ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-17 22:20                   ` Olof Johansson
     [not found]                   ` <CAOesGMiYyOcvr3Aqs-p8zc=XDwJM9NZtNxtxrTZssc6F=siZCw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18  8:45                     ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-18  8:45                       ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-18 17:33                       ` Jon Masters
2013-11-18 17:38                         ` Russell King - ARM Linux
     [not found]                         ` <528A4F5F.7080104-Zp4isUonpHBD60Wz+7aTrA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 19:21                           ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-18 19:21                             ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-21 18:26                         ` Grant Likely
2013-11-18 15:04                 ` Mark Brown
2013-11-18 15:04                   ` Mark Brown
2013-11-18 15:10                   ` Arnd Bergmann
2013-11-18 15:10                     ` Arnd Bergmann
     [not found]                   ` < 201311181610.33105.arnd@arndb.de>
     [not found]                     ` <201311181610.33105.arnd-r2nGTMty4D4@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 21:38                       ` Grant Likely
2013-11-18 21:38                         ` Grant Likely
2013-11-18 23:25   ` Leif Lindholm
2013-11-18 23:25     ` Leif Lindholm
     [not found]     ` <20131118232536.GF1567-GZEopFhza0F985/tl1ce8aaDwS/vmuI7@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 23:29       ` Olof Johansson
2013-11-18 23:29         ` Olof Johansson
     [not found]         ` <CAOesGMh373ZsLzoGHJm+xV3uFVjh2CBSA8SXY4PA+VxL3a5W1w-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 23:34           ` Leif Lindholm
2013-11-18 23:34             ` Leif Lindholm

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