From: Arnd Bergmann <arnd-r2nGTMty4D4@public.gmane.org> To: Russell King - ARM Linux <linux-lFZ/pmaqli7XmaaqVzeoHQ@public.gmane.org> Cc: Olof Johansson <olof-nZhT3qVonbNeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>, Mark Rutland <mark.rutland-5wv7dgnIgG8@public.gmane.org>, Grant Likely <grant.likely-s3s/WqlpOiPyB63q8FvJNQ@public.gmane.org>, "devicetree-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org" <devicetree-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org>, "linux-arm-kernel-IAPFreCvJWM7uuMidbF8XUB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org" <linux-arm-kernel-IAPFreCvJWM7uuMidbF8XUB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org> Subject: Re: ACPI vs DT at runtime Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 16:05:37 +0100 [thread overview] Message-ID: <201311181605.37300.arnd@arndb.de> (raw) In-Reply-To: <20131115232109.GT16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org> On Saturday 16 November 2013, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote: > On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 08:56:47PM +0100, Arnd Bergmann wrote: > > > > For all I know, doing this in ACPI is something that is only now being > > discussed as Intel wants to be able to reuse the existing features from > > DT enabled drivers in the kernel and share the implementation between > > embedded x86 SoCs and embedded ARM/PowerPC/MIPS/... SoCs. That part actually > > isn't as crazy. > > > > The existing ACPI usage however is basically all binary and cannot be > > shared with DT, in particular it won't help for the orthogonal problem of > > using ACPI to get "enterprise server" features on ARM64. > > That's strange, because the patches I've seen from people who want to > add ACPI support to AMBA are all based around very similar strings to > those in DT to lookup the same data in ACPI. Can you point to specific patches? I can't say I'm an expert on this, but everything I've seen with ACPI is tables of binary data with four-letter identifiers that are defined by the ACPI group, but not using strings in a similar manner to DT. Apple has an extension to do DT-style properties in their phones, and we had a discussion at the kernel summit to do a more generic variation of the same idea that Darren Hart presented, but that is still in prototype stage. > What's been done there is the function which reads from DT has been > duplicated, and instead of reading the information from DT, it reads it > from ACPI instead using string names without the vendor prefix. The recently posted x-gene ahci driver does this, but from what I can tell, the implementation is inappropriate on both DT (because of the use of unreadable four-character upper-case identifiers) and on ACPI (because of the use of non-standard identifiers). > That tells me that what I've stated in my previous email to which you > replied is _definitely_ possible to do. That means it's certainly > possible to do this without reinventing the wheel, and without having > to rewrite lots of parsing code, precisely along the lines I set out > in my original email. To clarify my complaint: while we can do simple (boolean, integer, text, or arrays of those three) properties with Darren's approach as long as they are private to one device, that won't suffice for anything that requires links between devices. We have phandles on DT that can be freely mixed with integers for things like GPIO or clock references. ACPI has similar references, but uses a different syntax for doing the same things, and these have to be standardized per subsystem (i.e. per type of connection) to make sense. As a result, every subsystem that has a producer-consumer type connection requires different code for DT and for ACPI. If the subsystem-to-driver interface is done well, we can have a common device driver, but in a lot of cases there will be a leaky abstraction. As Olof pointed out, even migrating from a DT-only interface to a generic interface would require changing each driver, even if the result is no more ugly than the current state. Arnd -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe devicetree" in the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
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From: arnd@arndb.de (Arnd Bergmann) To: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org Subject: ACPI vs DT at runtime Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 16:05:37 +0100 [thread overview] Message-ID: <201311181605.37300.arnd@arndb.de> (raw) In-Reply-To: <20131115232109.GT16735@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk> On Saturday 16 November 2013, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote: > On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 08:56:47PM +0100, Arnd Bergmann wrote: > > > > For all I know, doing this in ACPI is something that is only now being > > discussed as Intel wants to be able to reuse the existing features from > > DT enabled drivers in the kernel and share the implementation between > > embedded x86 SoCs and embedded ARM/PowerPC/MIPS/... SoCs. That part actually > > isn't as crazy. > > > > The existing ACPI usage however is basically all binary and cannot be > > shared with DT, in particular it won't help for the orthogonal problem of > > using ACPI to get "enterprise server" features on ARM64. > > That's strange, because the patches I've seen from people who want to > add ACPI support to AMBA are all based around very similar strings to > those in DT to lookup the same data in ACPI. Can you point to specific patches? I can't say I'm an expert on this, but everything I've seen with ACPI is tables of binary data with four-letter identifiers that are defined by the ACPI group, but not using strings in a similar manner to DT. Apple has an extension to do DT-style properties in their phones, and we had a discussion at the kernel summit to do a more generic variation of the same idea that Darren Hart presented, but that is still in prototype stage. > What's been done there is the function which reads from DT has been > duplicated, and instead of reading the information from DT, it reads it > from ACPI instead using string names without the vendor prefix. The recently posted x-gene ahci driver does this, but from what I can tell, the implementation is inappropriate on both DT (because of the use of unreadable four-character upper-case identifiers) and on ACPI (because of the use of non-standard identifiers). > That tells me that what I've stated in my previous email to which you > replied is _definitely_ possible to do. That means it's certainly > possible to do this without reinventing the wheel, and without having > to rewrite lots of parsing code, precisely along the lines I set out > in my original email. To clarify my complaint: while we can do simple (boolean, integer, text, or arrays of those three) properties with Darren's approach as long as they are private to one device, that won't suffice for anything that requires links between devices. We have phandles on DT that can be freely mixed with integers for things like GPIO or clock references. ACPI has similar references, but uses a different syntax for doing the same things, and these have to be standardized per subsystem (i.e. per type of connection) to make sense. As a result, every subsystem that has a producer-consumer type connection requires different code for DT and for ACPI. If the subsystem-to-driver interface is done well, we can have a common device driver, but in a lot of cases there will be a leaky abstraction. As Olof pointed out, even migrating from a DT-only interface to a generic interface would require changing each driver, even if the result is no more ugly than the current state. Arnd
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2013-11-18 15:05 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 186+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2013-11-15 1:44 ACPI vs DT at runtime Olof Johansson 2013-11-15 1:44 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-15 9:57 ` Mark Rutland 2013-11-15 9:57 ` Mark Rutland [not found] ` <20131115175241. GB27174@quad.lixom.net> [not found] ` <20131115095717.GC1709-NuALmloUBlrZROr8t4l/smS4ubULX0JqMm0uRHvK7Nw@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-15 17:52 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-15 17:52 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-15 18:13 ` David Goodenough 2013-11-21 16:15 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-18 17:47 ` Jon Masters 2013-11-18 17:47 ` Jon Masters [not found] ` <20131115175241.GB27174-O5ziIzlqnXUVNXGz7ipsyg@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-15 18:08 ` Russell King - ARM Linux 2013-11-15 18:08 ` Russell King - ARM Linux [not found] ` <20131115180832.GR16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-15 18:42 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-15 18:42 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-15 19:56 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-15 19:56 ` Arnd Bergmann [not found] ` <201311152056.47846.arnd-r2nGTMty4D4@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-15 23:21 ` Russell King - ARM Linux 2013-11-15 23:21 ` Russell King - ARM Linux [not found] ` <20131115232109.GT16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-18 15:05 ` Arnd Bergmann [this message] 2013-11-18 15:05 ` Arnd Bergmann [not found] ` <201311181605.37300.arnd-r2nGTMty4D4@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-18 15:19 ` Russell King - ARM Linux 2013-11-18 15:19 ` Russell King - ARM Linux 2013-11-18 15:46 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-18 15:46 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-21 16:10 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-21 16:10 ` Grant Likely [not found] ` <20131121161037.C528CC406A3-WNowdnHR2B42iJbIjFUEsiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-21 18:26 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-21 18:26 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-21 19:40 ` Mark Brown 2013-11-21 19:40 ` Mark Brown [not found] ` <20131118151900.GF16735@ n2100.arm.linux.org.uk> [not found] ` <20131118151900.GF16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-21 16:11 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-21 16:11 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-21 16:00 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-21 16:00 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-19 11:30 ` Mark Rutland 2013-11-19 11:30 ` Mark Rutland 2013-11-19 11:35 ` Mark Rutland 2013-11-19 11:35 ` Mark Rutland [not found] ` <20131119113557.GI5914-NuALmloUBlrZROr8t4l/smS4ubULX0JqMm0uRHvK7Nw@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-19 11:51 ` Leif Lindholm 2013-11-19 11:51 ` Leif Lindholm [not found] ` <20131119113015.GH5914-NuALmloUBlrZROr8t4l/smS4ubULX0JqMm0uRHvK7Nw@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-19 11:57 ` Russell King - ARM Linux 2013-11-19 11:57 ` Russell King - ARM Linux 2013-11-19 13:56 ` Stefano Stabellini 2013-11-19 13:56 ` Stefano Stabellini 2013-11-19 14:38 ` Mark Rutland 2013-11-19 14:38 ` Mark Rutland [not found] ` <20131119143840.GN5914-NuALmloUBlrZROr8t4l/smS4ubULX0JqMm0uRHvK7Nw@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-19 14:59 ` Leif Lindholm 2013-11-19 14:59 ` Leif Lindholm 2013-11-19 18:23 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-19 18:23 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-19 14:05 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-19 14:05 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-19 15:21 ` Mark Rutland 2013-11-19 15:21 ` Mark Rutland [not found] ` <20131119152157.GO5914-NuALmloUBlrZROr8t4l/smS4ubULX0JqMm0uRHvK7Nw@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-19 16:19 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-19 16:19 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-19 18:34 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-19 18:34 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-19 19:06 ` Tom Rini 2013-11-19 19:06 ` Tom Rini 2013-11-19 18:19 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-19 18:19 ` Olof Johansson [not found] ` <20131119181959.GA20967-O5ziIzlqnXUVNXGz7ipsyg@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-21 16:37 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-21 16:37 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-21 16:29 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-21 16:29 ` Grant Likely [not found] ` <20131121170122. GB22960@srcf.ucam.org> [not found] ` <20131121170122.GB22960-1xO5oi07KQx4cg9Nei1l7Q@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-21 18:38 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-21 18:38 ` Grant Likely [not found] ` <20131121162944.F087FC406A3-WNowdnHR2B42iJbIjFUEsiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-21 17:01 ` Matthew Garrett 2013-11-21 17:01 ` Matthew Garrett 2013-11-21 17:58 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-21 17:58 ` Olof Johansson [not found] ` <20131121175822.GA9590-O5ziIzlqnXUVNXGz7ipsyg@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-21 18:19 ` Matthew Garrett 2013-11-21 18:19 ` Matthew Garrett 2013-11-21 18:33 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-21 18:33 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-21 18:54 ` Russell King - ARM Linux 2013-11-21 18:54 ` Russell King - ARM Linux [not found] ` <20131121185408.GX16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-21 18:59 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-21 18:59 ` Olof Johansson [not found] ` <CAOesGMgzUSMDy99XojipfRd5OM88UhfbCYO0aoc5m-Q8Fwnddg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-21 19:01 ` Russell King - ARM Linux 2013-11-21 19:01 ` Russell King - ARM Linux [not found] ` <20131121190126.GZ16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-21 19:31 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-21 19:31 ` Olof Johansson [not found] ` < CAOesGMgzUSMDy99XojipfRd5OM88UhfbCYO0aoc5m-Q8Fwnddg@mail.gmail.com> [not found] ` < 20131121190126.GZ16735@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk> [not found] ` < CAOesGMgxGq1Zmo+Dq-Rmy2F02-=12yUzB0AKn35yK2j3CacNRQ@mail.gmail.com> [not found] ` <CAOesGMgxGq1Zmo+Dq-Rmy2F02-=12yUzB0AKn35yK2j3CacNRQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-21 20:44 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-21 20:44 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-21 18:53 ` Mark Brown 2013-11-21 18:53 ` Mark Brown 2013-11-15 18:28 ` Jason Gunthorpe 2013-11-15 18:28 ` Jason Gunthorpe [not found] ` <20131115182826.GB14920-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-15 18:57 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-15 18:57 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-20 13:49 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-20 13:49 ` Grant Likely [not found] ` <20131120134942.95DBFC4079D-WNowdnHR2B42iJbIjFUEsiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-20 17:43 ` Stefano Stabellini 2013-11-20 17:43 ` Stefano Stabellini [not found] ` <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201737410.3198-7Z66fg9igcxYtxbxJUhB2Dgeux46jI+i@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-20 17:47 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-20 17:47 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-18 5:19 ` Jon Masters 2013-11-18 5:26 ` Jon Masters [not found] ` <5289A4F3.5040203-Zp4isUonpHBD60Wz+7aTrA@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-18 19:25 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-18 19:25 ` Olof Johansson [not found] ` <20131118192552.GD5886-O5ziIzlqnXUVNXGz7ipsyg@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-18 20:43 ` Jon Masters 2013-11-18 20:43 ` Jon Masters [not found] ` <528A7BFD.4020303-Zp4isUonpHBD60Wz+7aTrA@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-18 21:25 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-18 21:25 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-18 7:22 ` Richard Cochran 2013-11-18 13:55 ` Stefano Stabellini 2013-11-18 15:00 ` Mark Brown [not found] ` <20131118150052.GC24408-GFdadSzt00ze9xe1eoZjHA@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-18 19:13 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-18 19:13 ` Olof Johansson [not found] ` <20131118191336.GB5886-O5ziIzlqnXUVNXGz7ipsyg@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-19 9:12 ` Richard Cochran 2013-11-19 9:12 ` Richard Cochran 2013-11-19 18:48 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-19 18:48 ` Olof Johansson [not found] ` <20131119184827.GD20967-O5ziIzlqnXUVNXGz7ipsyg@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-20 6:40 ` Richard Cochran 2013-11-20 6:40 ` Richard Cochran 2013-11-21 18:16 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-21 18:16 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-21 19:21 ` Russell King - ARM Linux 2013-11-21 19:21 ` Russell King - ARM Linux [not found] ` < 20131121192136.GA16735@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk> [not found] ` <20131121192136.GA16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-21 20:47 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-21 20:47 ` Grant Likely [not found] ` <20131121204704.E4487C40753-WNowdnHR2B42iJbIjFUEsiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-22 11:43 ` Catalin Marinas 2013-11-22 11:43 ` Catalin Marinas [not found] ` <CAHkRjk5MstjD9JFk+co8k89i8geJBmSF6uObhGdmWSe0GJHo8g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-22 12:00 ` Pantelis Antoniou 2013-11-22 12:00 ` Pantelis Antoniou [not found] ` <97692EF2-013E-4E4B-BC16-E0915D67EFEC-wVdstyuyKrO8r51toPun2/C9HSW9iNxf@public.gmane.org> 2014-05-05 7:06 ` Alexander Holler 2014-05-05 7:06 ` Alexander Holler [not found] ` <53673866.9000105-SXC+2es9fhnfWeYVQQPykw@public.gmane.org> 2014-05-05 14:41 ` Arnd Bergmann 2014-05-05 14:41 ` Arnd Bergmann 2014-05-05 15:29 ` Alexander Holler 2014-05-05 15:29 ` Alexander Holler [not found] ` <5367AE6B.3010105-SXC+2es9fhnfWeYVQQPykw@public.gmane.org> 2014-05-05 17:29 ` Arnd Bergmann 2014-05-05 17:29 ` Arnd Bergmann 2014-05-06 15:37 ` Grant Likely 2014-05-06 15:37 ` Grant Likely 2014-05-06 15:27 ` Grant Likely 2014-05-06 15:27 ` Grant Likely [not found] ` <20140506152725.E5B90C40959-WNowdnHR2B42iJbIjFUEsiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org> 2014-05-06 16:32 ` Olof Johansson 2014-05-06 16:32 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-18 15:28 ` Rob Herring [not found] ` <5289A356.4060004-Zp4isUonpHBD60Wz+7aTrA@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-18 19:09 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-18 19:09 ` Olof Johansson [not found] ` <20131118190929.GA5886-O5ziIzlqnXUVNXGz7ipsyg@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-18 20:54 ` Jon Masters 2013-11-18 20:54 ` Jon Masters [not found] ` <528A7EA0.9050101-Zp4isUonpHBD60Wz+7aTrA@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-18 21:50 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-18 21:50 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-18 21:32 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-18 21:32 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-18 22:47 ` David Goodenough 2013-11-19 12:48 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-19 12:48 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-19 13:34 ` David Goodenough 2013-11-19 16:52 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-21 18:23 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-19 14:33 ` Grant Likely [not found] ` <CAOesGMjKeRb=fFJM0MabDihbEiCGM4EqW9D5i_6-RFxTnpB4Qw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-15 20:58 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-15 20:58 ` Arnd Bergmann [not found] ` <201311152158.32644.arnd-r2nGTMty4D4@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-15 21:44 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-15 21:44 ` Olof Johansson [not found] ` <CAOesGMhkCn2zeJj_ZZAZu_wJya-4evWEqNHpVJEpjxzWHVWY3A-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-17 17:18 ` Stefano Stabellini 2013-11-17 17:18 ` Stefano Stabellini [not found] ` <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311171705130.4714-7Z66fg9igcxYtxbxJUhB2Dgeux46jI+i@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-17 18:10 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-17 18:10 ` Arnd Bergmann [not found] ` < CAOesGMiYyOcvr3Aqs-p8zc=XDwJM9NZtNxtxrTZssc6F=siZCw@mail.gmail.com> 2013-11-17 22:20 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-17 22:20 ` Olof Johansson [not found] ` <CAOesGMiYyOcvr3Aqs-p8zc=XDwJM9NZtNxtxrTZssc6F=siZCw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-18 8:45 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-18 8:45 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-18 17:33 ` Jon Masters 2013-11-18 17:38 ` Russell King - ARM Linux [not found] ` <528A4F5F.7080104-Zp4isUonpHBD60Wz+7aTrA@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-18 19:21 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-18 19:21 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-21 18:26 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-18 15:04 ` Mark Brown 2013-11-18 15:04 ` Mark Brown 2013-11-18 15:10 ` Arnd Bergmann 2013-11-18 15:10 ` Arnd Bergmann [not found] ` < 201311181610.33105.arnd@arndb.de> [not found] ` <201311181610.33105.arnd-r2nGTMty4D4@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-18 21:38 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-18 21:38 ` Grant Likely 2013-11-18 23:25 ` Leif Lindholm 2013-11-18 23:25 ` Leif Lindholm [not found] ` <20131118232536.GF1567-GZEopFhza0F985/tl1ce8aaDwS/vmuI7@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-18 23:29 ` Olof Johansson 2013-11-18 23:29 ` Olof Johansson [not found] ` <CAOesGMh373ZsLzoGHJm+xV3uFVjh2CBSA8SXY4PA+VxL3a5W1w-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> 2013-11-18 23:34 ` Leif Lindholm 2013-11-18 23:34 ` Leif Lindholm
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