From: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> To: Rainer Fiebig <jrf@mailbox.org> Cc: ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Mishi Choudhary <mishi@linux.com>, Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>, t@thunk.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, NeilBrown <neil@brown.name> Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:43:41 -0400 [thread overview] Message-ID: <20181023154341.GF6850@thunk.org> (raw) In-Reply-To: <1917804.q5V88l7eEq@siriux> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:22:54PM +0200, Rainer Fiebig wrote: > > And whether that CoC does come with a political agenda or is just being > *perceived* so, is irrelevant: the perception *is* the reality. And by > embracing this CoC, Linux is now being perceived as also supporting the agenda > that comes with it. But perhaps that was intended? > > In my view you now have a new, probably even bigger problem: namely that by > adopting *this* CoC and by unyieldingly clinging to it, you have alienated > many, if not the majority of loyal Linux-users/supporters. Citation Needed: What's your *proof* the majority of Linux users/supports have been alienated? Many people have actually been quite supportive of the CoC. And perception is a funny thing. I have no doubt that there are people who will claim that some CoC's that might more be acceptable to you would be "useless" or "means nothing". (Note how simply removing three lines that troubled ***many*** Maintainers caused Josh to complain that it ruined the CoC). And there are others for whom the Contributor's Convenant automatically seems to mean kangaroo courts and harsh punishments with no accountability for minor issues. I suspect that both you *and* Josh are unhappy, in opposite directions, might be a hint that we've mostly gotten things right. Another example of this is that zero-day testing bot changed its message in order to be more welcoming to newcomers. ("Thank you for the patch! Yet something to improve...".) At the Maintainer's Summit, someone from Germany pointed out that in European and especially German cultures, being ultra polite is often a signal that the person is considered stupid/incompetent, and he actually viewed it the change in the testing bot as making it be *less* welcoming, not *more*. Not that he cared, because he has a thick skin and after all, it's only a 'bot --- but in his view he thought it was quite funny that the change was welcomed by some as being an improvement when he viewed it completely the other way 'round. Ultimately, we are a world-wide effort, and it's really hard to predict or control how people from different cultures will perceive an e-mail or some document. That doesn't mean we shouldn't *try*, and there may very well be times when someone will file a complaint for what is perceived to be a Code of Conduct which is really a misunderstanding due to a cultural mismatch. (And *obviously* that's not a CoC violation either, despite some people trying to spread FUD by making the case that it would be.) > In my view, the Linux-CoC stands for exactly that sort of extreme "Political > Correctness" that is infesting our societies and has proven its destructive > nature in more than enough instances. For some examples see [1][2][3][4][5]. > > To me it feels more and more like the dark times of witch-hunts are back or > when it was politically in-correct to say that the earth revolves around the > sun. In those days offenders like Galilei were at least offered the choice > between recanting and the funeral-pile. Today you may recant but you get > publicly burnt anyway. Yeah, and that's precisely the FUD that I'm talking about. I understand that is your view. Let's see if it's actually true. I haven't seen any witch trials or burnings in the GoLang community, which also uses the Contributor hConvenant as their CoC. Can you be open-minded enough to accept the fact that you might be wrong? And are you prepared to change your views if we don't see Maintainers getting "impeached" or otherwise burned at the stake in the next year or so? And on the flip side, if we continue to have newcomers saying that they are feeling more welcomed, I'm hoping that Josh is also open minded to understand that the changes the we made didn't completely destroy the whole point of the CoC. Best regards, - Ted
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> To: Rainer Fiebig <jrf@mailbox.org> Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, t@thunk.org, NeilBrown <neil@brown.name>, Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>, Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org>, Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>, ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Mishi Choudhary <mishi@linux.com> Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:43:41 -0400 [thread overview] Message-ID: <20181023154341.GF6850@thunk.org> (raw) In-Reply-To: <1917804.q5V88l7eEq@siriux> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:22:54PM +0200, Rainer Fiebig wrote: > > And whether that CoC does come with a political agenda or is just being > *perceived* so, is irrelevant: the perception *is* the reality. And by > embracing this CoC, Linux is now being perceived as also supporting the agenda > that comes with it. But perhaps that was intended? > > In my view you now have a new, probably even bigger problem: namely that by > adopting *this* CoC and by unyieldingly clinging to it, you have alienated > many, if not the majority of loyal Linux-users/supporters. Citation Needed: What's your *proof* the majority of Linux users/supports have been alienated? Many people have actually been quite supportive of the CoC. And perception is a funny thing. I have no doubt that there are people who will claim that some CoC's that might more be acceptable to you would be "useless" or "means nothing". (Note how simply removing three lines that troubled ***many*** Maintainers caused Josh to complain that it ruined the CoC). And there are others for whom the Contributor's Convenant automatically seems to mean kangaroo courts and harsh punishments with no accountability for minor issues. I suspect that both you *and* Josh are unhappy, in opposite directions, might be a hint that we've mostly gotten things right. Another example of this is that zero-day testing bot changed its message in order to be more welcoming to newcomers. ("Thank you for the patch! Yet something to improve...".) At the Maintainer's Summit, someone from Germany pointed out that in European and especially German cultures, being ultra polite is often a signal that the person is considered stupid/incompetent, and he actually viewed it the change in the testing bot as making it be *less* welcoming, not *more*. Not that he cared, because he has a thick skin and after all, it's only a 'bot --- but in his view he thought it was quite funny that the change was welcomed by some as being an improvement when he viewed it completely the other way 'round. Ultimately, we are a world-wide effort, and it's really hard to predict or control how people from different cultures will perceive an e-mail or some document. That doesn't mean we shouldn't *try*, and there may very well be times when someone will file a complaint for what is perceived to be a Code of Conduct which is really a misunderstanding due to a cultural mismatch. (And *obviously* that's not a CoC violation either, despite some people trying to spread FUD by making the case that it would be.) > In my view, the Linux-CoC stands for exactly that sort of extreme "Political > Correctness" that is infesting our societies and has proven its destructive > nature in more than enough instances. For some examples see [1][2][3][4][5]. > > To me it feels more and more like the dark times of witch-hunts are back or > when it was politically in-correct to say that the earth revolves around the > sun. In those days offenders like Galilei were at least offered the choice > between recanting and the funeral-pile. Today you may recant but you get > publicly burnt anyway. Yeah, and that's precisely the FUD that I'm talking about. I understand that is your view. Let's see if it's actually true. I haven't seen any witch trials or burnings in the GoLang community, which also uses the Contributor hConvenant as their CoC. Can you be open-minded enough to accept the fact that you might be wrong? And are you prepared to change your views if we don't see Maintainers getting "impeached" or otherwise burned at the stake in the next year or so? And on the flip side, if we continue to have newcomers saying that they are feeling more welcomed, I'm hoping that Josh is also open minded to understand that the changes the we made didn't completely destroy the whole point of the CoC. Best regards, - Ted
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2018-10-23 15:43 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 177+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2018-10-20 13:49 [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:49 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:49 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 1/7] Code of conduct: Fix wording around maintainers enforcing the code of conduct Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:49 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 2/7] Code of Conduct Interpretation: Add document explaining how the Code of Conduct is to be interpreted Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 3/7] Code of Conduct Interpretation: Properly reference the TAB correctly Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 4/7] Code of Conduct: Provide links between the two documents Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 5/7] Code of Conduct Interpretation: Put in the proper URL for the committee Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 19:01 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-10-20 19:01 ` Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-10-21 7:18 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Greg KH 2018-10-21 7:18 ` Greg KH 2018-10-20 13:51 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 6/7] Code of Conduct: Change the contact email address Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:51 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 18:28 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Alan Cox 2018-10-20 18:28 ` Alan Cox 2018-10-20 18:45 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Trond Myklebust 2018-10-20 18:45 ` Trond Myklebust 2018-10-20 19:14 ` jonsmirl 2018-10-20 19:14 ` jonsmirl 2018-10-21 8:27 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-21 8:27 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-21 9:23 ` Greg KH 2018-10-21 9:23 ` Greg KH 2018-10-20 19:24 ` Tim.Bird 2018-10-20 19:24 ` Tim.Bird 2018-10-20 20:07 ` Trond Myklebust 2018-10-20 20:07 ` Trond Myklebust 2018-10-21 0:13 ` Alan Cox 2018-10-21 0:13 ` Alan Cox 2018-10-21 6:19 ` Thomas Gleixner 2018-10-21 6:19 ` Thomas Gleixner 2018-10-20 20:13 ` James Bottomley 2018-10-20 20:13 ` James Bottomley 2018-10-20 13:51 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 7/7] MAINTAINERS: Add an entry for the code of conduct Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:51 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-21 21:20 ` [Ksummit-discuss] Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document NeilBrown 2018-10-21 21:20 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-21 22:26 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Josh Triplett 2018-10-21 22:26 ` Josh Triplett 2018-10-21 23:37 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-21 23:37 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 1:44 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-22 20:26 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-22 20:26 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-22 22:46 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-22 22:46 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 1:31 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 1:31 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 6:26 ` Dan Carpenter 2018-10-23 6:40 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 6:40 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 6:46 ` Dan Carpenter 2018-10-23 6:46 ` Dan Carpenter 2018-10-23 3:31 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 3:31 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 4:25 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 4:25 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 4:52 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 4:52 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 5:28 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 5:28 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 6:00 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 6:00 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 20:45 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 20:45 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 8:11 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 8:11 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 14:22 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-23 14:22 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-23 15:43 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o [this message] 2018-10-23 15:43 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 17:51 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-23 21:14 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 21:14 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-24 12:16 ` Josh Triplett 2018-10-24 12:16 ` Josh Triplett 2018-10-25 21:14 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-25 21:14 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-27 1:10 ` Josh Triplett 2018-10-27 1:10 ` Josh Triplett 2018-10-28 21:48 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-28 21:48 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-01 16:45 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-01 16:45 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-01 21:11 ` Josh Triplett 2018-11-01 21:11 ` Josh Triplett 2018-11-02 13:13 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-02 13:13 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-01 21:50 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-02 13:33 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-02 13:33 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-03 8:36 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-03 8:36 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-03 17:37 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-03 17:37 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-03 21:06 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-03 21:06 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-03 22:23 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-03 22:23 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-02 13:52 ` James Bottomley 2018-11-03 9:19 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-11-04 10:35 ` Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-11-04 10:35 ` Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-10-21 22:33 ` Joe Perches 2018-10-21 22:33 ` Joe Perches 2018-10-21 22:37 ` Randy Dunlap 2018-10-21 22:37 ` Randy Dunlap 2018-10-22 9:09 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-22 9:09 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-22 11:02 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " James Bottomley 2018-10-22 11:02 ` James Bottomley 2018-10-24 8:49 ` Laura Abbott 2018-10-24 8:49 ` Laura Abbott 2018-10-25 7:56 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant visionsofalice 2018-10-25 8:19 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-25 8:19 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-25 19:39 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-25 20:47 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-25 20:47 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-25 21:41 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-25 22:12 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " NeilBrown 2018-10-25 22:12 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-25 22:38 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-25 22:52 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " NeilBrown 2018-10-25 22:52 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-04 10:47 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-11-04 10:47 ` Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-10-25 23:06 ` Al Viro 2018-10-25 23:06 ` Al Viro 2018-10-26 2:28 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-26 5:49 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Al Viro 2018-10-26 5:49 ` Al Viro 2018-10-27 6:52 ` visionsofalice 2018-10-27 7:32 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Al Viro 2018-10-27 7:32 ` Al Viro 2018-10-27 16:18 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Tim.Bird 2018-10-27 16:18 ` Tim.Bird 2018-10-27 22:09 ` Jiri Kosina 2018-10-27 22:09 ` Jiri Kosina [not found] ` <CAK2MWOtNUTjWy5pTcGco5DNurqNCc=9CfDJ-Ko-K+6HDC55ikg@mail.gmail.com> 2018-10-27 23:07 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-27 23:40 ` Al Viro 2018-10-27 23:40 ` Al Viro 2018-10-28 21:13 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-28 21:13 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-25 23:32 ` Iván Chavero 2018-10-26 13:15 ` Eben Moglen 2018-10-26 15:50 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-26 15:53 ` Eben Moglen 2018-10-26 17:32 ` visionsofalice 2018-10-26 18:31 ` Eben Moglen 2018-10-27 7:12 ` visionsofalice 2018-12-18 18:53 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant. - Analysis published? visionsofalice 2018-10-26 10:34 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant visionsofalice 2018-10-29 22:31 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Bradley M. Kuhn 2018-10-29 22:31 ` Bradley M. Kuhn 2018-12-18 19:17 ` visionsofalice 2018-10-27 5:04 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant. - Additional restrictive terms visionsofalice 2018-12-18 20:55 ` The CoC regime is a License violation " visionsofalice 2018-12-19 1:17 ` visionsofalice 2018-12-23 16:05 ` visionsofalice 2018-10-25 22:02 ` [Ksummit-discuss] Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document NeilBrown 2018-10-25 22:02 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-25 8:06 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Pavel Machek 2018-10-25 8:06 ` Pavel Machek 2018-10-25 11:20 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-25 22:18 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " NeilBrown 2018-10-25 22:18 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-26 8:33 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-26 22:40 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " NeilBrown 2018-10-26 22:40 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-27 11:49 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-21 23:36 ` Eric S. Raymond
Reply instructions: You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email using any one of the following methods: * Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client, and reply-to-all from there: mbox Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style * Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to switches of git-send-email(1): git send-email \ --in-reply-to=20181023154341.GF6850@thunk.org \ --to=tytso@mit.edu \ --cc=gregkh@linuxfoundation.org \ --cc=jrf@mailbox.org \ --cc=ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org \ --cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \ --cc=mishi@linux.com \ --cc=neil@brown.name \ --cc=t@thunk.org \ /path/to/YOUR_REPLY https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html * If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header via mailto: links, try the mailto: linkBe sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is an external index of several public inboxes, see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror all data and code used by this external index.