From: NeilBrown <neil@brown.name> To: esr@thyrsus.com, "Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu>, Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>, visionsofalice@redchan.it, linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, rms@gnu.org, bruce@perens.com, moglen@columbia.edu, bkuhn@sfconservancy.org, editor@lwn.net, Laura Abbott <labbott@redhat.com>, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>, ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>, Olof Johansson <olof@lixom.net>, Chris Mason <clm@fb.com>, Mishi Choudhary <mishi@linux.com>, linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] The linux devs can rescind their license grant. Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 09:12:21 +1100 [thread overview] Message-ID: <87a7n165h6.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> (raw) In-Reply-To: <20181025214123.GA2448@thyrsus.com> [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2999 bytes --] On Thu, Oct 25 2018, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Theodore Y. Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu>: >> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 03:39:01PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >> > Under Jacobsen vs. Katzer (535 f 3d 1373 fed cir 2008) authors of >> > GPLed software have a specific right to relief (including injunctive >> > relief) against misappropriation of their software. That ruling (which >> > was the case of first impression on the binding status of the GPL) >> > reputational damage is *specifically* recognized as grounds for relief. >> >> I've read the legal briefs, and I'm pretty sure they don't say what >> you are claiming they say. Yes, I'm not a lawyer --- but that's OK >> --- neither are you. > > How much are you willing to gamble on not being wrong? > >> The *vast* majority of the "anti-CoC dissidents" who have been >> advancing this argument, have, as near as I can tell, little or no >> copyright ownership in the kernel. > > I do not have any facts with which to dispute this specific claim. > However, I do notice that a significant number of long-time > contributors have put themselves in the anti-CoC camp. I note Al Viro > as a recent example. I think you are blurring two groups here. Ted describes "anti-CoC dissidents" as people who are advancing an argument about rescinding their license. This is a smaller groups than the "ant-CoC camp" who don't really like the CoC. I suspect is it is a much smaller group when restricting to actual copyright holders. I am against the CoC as it stands, but rescinding any license is such an enormous over-reaction, I find the concept laughable. NeilBrown > > Even supposing you are right about most of the anti-Coc people being > outsiders, a tiny minority of people with a genuine IP stake could do a > lot of damage. I ask again: how much are you willing to gamble on not > being wrong? > > I definitely do not want to see the kind of explosion we could witness. > I think you are making it more likely rather than less by appearing > high-handed and dismissive. Because, whatever the merits of the > CoC itself, there has been a process failure here. It doesn't look > good to be defending that failure. > > A change like the CoC adoption was not a good thing to do without > proper public notice, discussion, and consensus-building *beforehand*. > This was an unforced error on the part of the leadership group; > please, *please* don't compound it by digging in around the error. Do > you really think you're going to win hearts and minds among insider > dissidents - people with a genuine stake - by dismissing the > opposition as a troll job? > > Instead of declaiming about "trolls", how about we fix the process > failure instead? > -- > <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a> > > My work is funded by the Internet Civil Engineering Institute: https://icei.org > Please visit their site and donate: the civilization you save might be your own. [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --]
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: NeilBrown <neil@brown.name> To: esr@thyrsus.com, "Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu>, Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>, visionsofalice@redchan.it, linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, rms@gnu.org, bruce@perens.com, moglen@columbia.edu, bkuhn@sfconservancy.org, editor@lwn.net, Laura Abbott <labbott@redhat.com>, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>, ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>, Olof Johansson <olof@lixom.net>, Chris Mason <clm@fb.com>, Mishi Choudhary <mishi@linux.com>, linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: The linux devs can rescind their license grant. Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 09:12:21 +1100 [thread overview] Message-ID: <87a7n165h6.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> (raw) In-Reply-To: <20181025214123.GA2448@thyrsus.com> [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2999 bytes --] On Thu, Oct 25 2018, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Theodore Y. Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu>: >> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 03:39:01PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >> > Under Jacobsen vs. Katzer (535 f 3d 1373 fed cir 2008) authors of >> > GPLed software have a specific right to relief (including injunctive >> > relief) against misappropriation of their software. That ruling (which >> > was the case of first impression on the binding status of the GPL) >> > reputational damage is *specifically* recognized as grounds for relief. >> >> I've read the legal briefs, and I'm pretty sure they don't say what >> you are claiming they say. Yes, I'm not a lawyer --- but that's OK >> --- neither are you. > > How much are you willing to gamble on not being wrong? > >> The *vast* majority of the "anti-CoC dissidents" who have been >> advancing this argument, have, as near as I can tell, little or no >> copyright ownership in the kernel. > > I do not have any facts with which to dispute this specific claim. > However, I do notice that a significant number of long-time > contributors have put themselves in the anti-CoC camp. I note Al Viro > as a recent example. I think you are blurring two groups here. Ted describes "anti-CoC dissidents" as people who are advancing an argument about rescinding their license. This is a smaller groups than the "ant-CoC camp" who don't really like the CoC. I suspect is it is a much smaller group when restricting to actual copyright holders. I am against the CoC as it stands, but rescinding any license is such an enormous over-reaction, I find the concept laughable. NeilBrown > > Even supposing you are right about most of the anti-Coc people being > outsiders, a tiny minority of people with a genuine IP stake could do a > lot of damage. I ask again: how much are you willing to gamble on not > being wrong? > > I definitely do not want to see the kind of explosion we could witness. > I think you are making it more likely rather than less by appearing > high-handed and dismissive. Because, whatever the merits of the > CoC itself, there has been a process failure here. It doesn't look > good to be defending that failure. > > A change like the CoC adoption was not a good thing to do without > proper public notice, discussion, and consensus-building *beforehand*. > This was an unforced error on the part of the leadership group; > please, *please* don't compound it by digging in around the error. Do > you really think you're going to win hearts and minds among insider > dissidents - people with a genuine stake - by dismissing the > opposition as a troll job? > > Instead of declaiming about "trolls", how about we fix the process > failure instead? > -- > <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a> > > My work is funded by the Internet Civil Engineering Institute: https://icei.org > Please visit their site and donate: the civilization you save might be your own. [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --]
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2018-10-25 22:12 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 177+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2018-10-20 13:49 [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:49 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:49 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 1/7] Code of conduct: Fix wording around maintainers enforcing the code of conduct Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:49 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 2/7] Code of Conduct Interpretation: Add document explaining how the Code of Conduct is to be interpreted Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 3/7] Code of Conduct Interpretation: Properly reference the TAB correctly Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 4/7] Code of Conduct: Provide links between the two documents Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 5/7] Code of Conduct Interpretation: Put in the proper URL for the committee Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 19:01 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-10-20 19:01 ` Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-10-21 7:18 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Greg KH 2018-10-21 7:18 ` Greg KH 2018-10-20 13:51 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 6/7] Code of Conduct: Change the contact email address Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:51 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 18:28 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Alan Cox 2018-10-20 18:28 ` Alan Cox 2018-10-20 18:45 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Trond Myklebust 2018-10-20 18:45 ` Trond Myklebust 2018-10-20 19:14 ` jonsmirl 2018-10-20 19:14 ` jonsmirl 2018-10-21 8:27 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-21 8:27 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-21 9:23 ` Greg KH 2018-10-21 9:23 ` Greg KH 2018-10-20 19:24 ` Tim.Bird 2018-10-20 19:24 ` Tim.Bird 2018-10-20 20:07 ` Trond Myklebust 2018-10-20 20:07 ` Trond Myklebust 2018-10-21 0:13 ` Alan Cox 2018-10-21 0:13 ` Alan Cox 2018-10-21 6:19 ` Thomas Gleixner 2018-10-21 6:19 ` Thomas Gleixner 2018-10-20 20:13 ` James Bottomley 2018-10-20 20:13 ` James Bottomley 2018-10-20 13:51 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 7/7] MAINTAINERS: Add an entry for the code of conduct Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:51 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-21 21:20 ` [Ksummit-discuss] Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document NeilBrown 2018-10-21 21:20 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-21 22:26 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Josh Triplett 2018-10-21 22:26 ` Josh Triplett 2018-10-21 23:37 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-21 23:37 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 1:44 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-22 20:26 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-22 20:26 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-22 22:46 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-22 22:46 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 1:31 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 1:31 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 6:26 ` Dan Carpenter 2018-10-23 6:40 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 6:40 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 6:46 ` Dan Carpenter 2018-10-23 6:46 ` Dan Carpenter 2018-10-23 3:31 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 3:31 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 4:25 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 4:25 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 4:52 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 4:52 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 5:28 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 5:28 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 6:00 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 6:00 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 20:45 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 20:45 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 8:11 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 8:11 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 14:22 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-23 14:22 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-23 15:43 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 15:43 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 17:51 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-23 21:14 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 21:14 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-24 12:16 ` Josh Triplett 2018-10-24 12:16 ` Josh Triplett 2018-10-25 21:14 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-25 21:14 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-27 1:10 ` Josh Triplett 2018-10-27 1:10 ` Josh Triplett 2018-10-28 21:48 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-28 21:48 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-01 16:45 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-01 16:45 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-01 21:11 ` Josh Triplett 2018-11-01 21:11 ` Josh Triplett 2018-11-02 13:13 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-02 13:13 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-01 21:50 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-02 13:33 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-02 13:33 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-03 8:36 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-03 8:36 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-03 17:37 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-03 17:37 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-03 21:06 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-03 21:06 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-03 22:23 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-03 22:23 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-02 13:52 ` James Bottomley 2018-11-03 9:19 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-11-04 10:35 ` Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-11-04 10:35 ` Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-10-21 22:33 ` Joe Perches 2018-10-21 22:33 ` Joe Perches 2018-10-21 22:37 ` Randy Dunlap 2018-10-21 22:37 ` Randy Dunlap 2018-10-22 9:09 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-22 9:09 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-22 11:02 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " James Bottomley 2018-10-22 11:02 ` James Bottomley 2018-10-24 8:49 ` Laura Abbott 2018-10-24 8:49 ` Laura Abbott 2018-10-25 7:56 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant visionsofalice 2018-10-25 8:19 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-25 8:19 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-25 19:39 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-25 20:47 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-25 20:47 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-25 21:41 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-25 22:12 ` NeilBrown [this message] 2018-10-25 22:12 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-25 22:38 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-25 22:52 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " NeilBrown 2018-10-25 22:52 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-04 10:47 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-11-04 10:47 ` Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-10-25 23:06 ` Al Viro 2018-10-25 23:06 ` Al Viro 2018-10-26 2:28 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-26 5:49 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Al Viro 2018-10-26 5:49 ` Al Viro 2018-10-27 6:52 ` visionsofalice 2018-10-27 7:32 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Al Viro 2018-10-27 7:32 ` Al Viro 2018-10-27 16:18 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Tim.Bird 2018-10-27 16:18 ` Tim.Bird 2018-10-27 22:09 ` Jiri Kosina 2018-10-27 22:09 ` Jiri Kosina [not found] ` <CAK2MWOtNUTjWy5pTcGco5DNurqNCc=9CfDJ-Ko-K+6HDC55ikg@mail.gmail.com> 2018-10-27 23:07 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-27 23:40 ` Al Viro 2018-10-27 23:40 ` Al Viro 2018-10-28 21:13 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-28 21:13 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-25 23:32 ` Iván Chavero 2018-10-26 13:15 ` Eben Moglen 2018-10-26 15:50 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-26 15:53 ` Eben Moglen 2018-10-26 17:32 ` visionsofalice 2018-10-26 18:31 ` Eben Moglen 2018-10-27 7:12 ` visionsofalice 2018-12-18 18:53 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant. - Analysis published? visionsofalice 2018-10-26 10:34 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant visionsofalice 2018-10-29 22:31 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Bradley M. Kuhn 2018-10-29 22:31 ` Bradley M. Kuhn 2018-12-18 19:17 ` visionsofalice 2018-10-27 5:04 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant. - Additional restrictive terms visionsofalice 2018-12-18 20:55 ` The CoC regime is a License violation " visionsofalice 2018-12-19 1:17 ` visionsofalice 2018-12-23 16:05 ` visionsofalice 2018-10-25 22:02 ` [Ksummit-discuss] Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document NeilBrown 2018-10-25 22:02 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-25 8:06 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Pavel Machek 2018-10-25 8:06 ` Pavel Machek 2018-10-25 11:20 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-25 22:18 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " NeilBrown 2018-10-25 22:18 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-26 8:33 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-26 22:40 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " NeilBrown 2018-10-26 22:40 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-27 11:49 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-21 23:36 ` Eric S. Raymond
Reply instructions: You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email using any one of the following methods: * Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client, and reply-to-all from there: mbox Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style * Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to switches of git-send-email(1): git send-email \ --in-reply-to=87a7n165h6.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name \ --to=neil@brown.name \ --cc=bkuhn@sfconservancy.org \ --cc=bruce@perens.com \ --cc=clm@fb.com \ --cc=editor@lwn.net \ --cc=esr@thyrsus.com \ --cc=gregkh@linuxfoundation.org \ --cc=ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org \ --cc=labbott@redhat.com \ --cc=linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org \ --cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \ --cc=mishi@linux.com \ --cc=moglen@columbia.edu \ --cc=olof@lixom.net \ --cc=rms@gnu.org \ --cc=tglx@linutronix.de \ --cc=torvalds@linux-foundation.org \ --cc=tytso@mit.edu \ --cc=visionsofalice@redchan.it \ /path/to/YOUR_REPLY https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html * If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header via mailto: links, try the mailto: linkBe sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is an external index of several public inboxes, see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror all data and code used by this external index.