From: Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org> To: NeilBrown <neil@brown.name> Cc: Mishi Choudhary <mishi@linux.com>, Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>, linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 02:10:10 +0100 [thread overview] Message-ID: <20181027011010.GA29769@localhost> (raw) In-Reply-To: <87ftwt6850.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 08:14:51AM +1100, NeilBrown wrote: > On Wed, Oct 24 2018, Josh Triplett wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 07:26:06AM +1100, NeilBrown wrote: > >> On Sun, Oct 21 2018, Josh Triplett wrote: > >> > >> > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 08:20:11AM +1100, NeilBrown wrote: > >> >> I call on you, Greg: > >> >> - to abandon this divisive attempt to impose a "Code of Conduct" > >> >> - to revert 8a104f8b5867c68 > >> >> - to return to your core competence of building a great team around > >> >> a great kernel > >> >> > >> >> #Isupportreversion > >> >> > >> >> I call on the community to consider what *does* need to be said, about > >> >> conduct, to people outside the community and who have recently joined. > >> >> What is the document that you would have liked to have read as you were > >> >> starting out? It is all too long ago for me to remember clearly, and so > >> >> much has changed. > >> > > >> > The document I would have liked to have read when starting out is > >> > currently checked into the source tree in > >> > Documentation/process/code-of-conduct.rst . > >> > >> I'm curious - what would you have gained by reading that document? > > > > I would have then had rather less of a pervasive feeling of "if I make > > even a single mistake I get made an example of in ways that will feed > > people's quotes files for years to come". > > Thanks for your reply. Certainly feeling safe is important, and having > clear statements that the community values and promotes psychological > safety is valuable. > > The old "code of conflict" said > If however, anyone feels personally abused, threatened, or otherwise > uncomfortable due to this process, that is not acceptable. > > would you have not found this a strong enough statement to ward off that > pervasive feeling? Not when that document started out effectively saying, in an elaborate way, "code > people". (Leaving aside that the more important detail would be the community actually acting consistently with the code of conduct it espoused.) > In the current code, would The "Our Pledge" section have been > sufficient, or do you think the other sections would have actually > helped you? "Our Standards" would have been at least as important to me personally, as would "Enforcement" (and more importantly, examples of that applying in practice and not just as empty words).
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org> To: NeilBrown <neil@brown.name> Cc: Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>, linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>, ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Mishi Choudhary <mishi@linux.com> Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 02:10:10 +0100 [thread overview] Message-ID: <20181027011010.GA29769@localhost> (raw) In-Reply-To: <87ftwt6850.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 08:14:51AM +1100, NeilBrown wrote: > On Wed, Oct 24 2018, Josh Triplett wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 07:26:06AM +1100, NeilBrown wrote: > >> On Sun, Oct 21 2018, Josh Triplett wrote: > >> > >> > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 08:20:11AM +1100, NeilBrown wrote: > >> >> I call on you, Greg: > >> >> - to abandon this divisive attempt to impose a "Code of Conduct" > >> >> - to revert 8a104f8b5867c68 > >> >> - to return to your core competence of building a great team around > >> >> a great kernel > >> >> > >> >> #Isupportreversion > >> >> > >> >> I call on the community to consider what *does* need to be said, about > >> >> conduct, to people outside the community and who have recently joined. > >> >> What is the document that you would have liked to have read as you were > >> >> starting out? It is all too long ago for me to remember clearly, and so > >> >> much has changed. > >> > > >> > The document I would have liked to have read when starting out is > >> > currently checked into the source tree in > >> > Documentation/process/code-of-conduct.rst . > >> > >> I'm curious - what would you have gained by reading that document? > > > > I would have then had rather less of a pervasive feeling of "if I make > > even a single mistake I get made an example of in ways that will feed > > people's quotes files for years to come". > > Thanks for your reply. Certainly feeling safe is important, and having > clear statements that the community values and promotes psychological > safety is valuable. > > The old "code of conflict" said > If however, anyone feels personally abused, threatened, or otherwise > uncomfortable due to this process, that is not acceptable. > > would you have not found this a strong enough statement to ward off that > pervasive feeling? Not when that document started out effectively saying, in an elaborate way, "code > people". (Leaving aside that the more important detail would be the community actually acting consistently with the code of conduct it espoused.) > In the current code, would The "Our Pledge" section have been > sufficient, or do you think the other sections would have actually > helped you? "Our Standards" would have been at least as important to me personally, as would "Enforcement" (and more importantly, examples of that applying in practice and not just as empty words).
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2018-10-27 1:10 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 177+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2018-10-20 13:49 [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:49 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:49 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 1/7] Code of conduct: Fix wording around maintainers enforcing the code of conduct Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:49 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 2/7] Code of Conduct Interpretation: Add document explaining how the Code of Conduct is to be interpreted Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 3/7] Code of Conduct Interpretation: Properly reference the TAB correctly Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 4/7] Code of Conduct: Provide links between the two documents Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 5/7] Code of Conduct Interpretation: Put in the proper URL for the committee Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:50 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 19:01 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-10-20 19:01 ` Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-10-21 7:18 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Greg KH 2018-10-21 7:18 ` Greg KH 2018-10-20 13:51 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 6/7] Code of Conduct: Change the contact email address Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:51 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 18:28 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Alan Cox 2018-10-20 18:28 ` Alan Cox 2018-10-20 18:45 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Trond Myklebust 2018-10-20 18:45 ` Trond Myklebust 2018-10-20 19:14 ` jonsmirl 2018-10-20 19:14 ` jonsmirl 2018-10-21 8:27 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-21 8:27 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-21 9:23 ` Greg KH 2018-10-21 9:23 ` Greg KH 2018-10-20 19:24 ` Tim.Bird 2018-10-20 19:24 ` Tim.Bird 2018-10-20 20:07 ` Trond Myklebust 2018-10-20 20:07 ` Trond Myklebust 2018-10-21 0:13 ` Alan Cox 2018-10-21 0:13 ` Alan Cox 2018-10-21 6:19 ` Thomas Gleixner 2018-10-21 6:19 ` Thomas Gleixner 2018-10-20 20:13 ` James Bottomley 2018-10-20 20:13 ` James Bottomley 2018-10-20 13:51 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH 7/7] MAINTAINERS: Add an entry for the code of conduct Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-20 13:51 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-21 21:20 ` [Ksummit-discuss] Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document NeilBrown 2018-10-21 21:20 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-21 22:26 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Josh Triplett 2018-10-21 22:26 ` Josh Triplett 2018-10-21 23:37 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-21 23:37 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 1:44 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-22 20:26 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-22 20:26 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-22 22:46 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-22 22:46 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 1:31 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 1:31 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 6:26 ` Dan Carpenter 2018-10-23 6:40 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 6:40 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 6:46 ` Dan Carpenter 2018-10-23 6:46 ` Dan Carpenter 2018-10-23 3:31 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 3:31 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 4:25 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 4:25 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 4:52 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 4:52 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 5:28 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 5:28 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 6:00 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 6:00 ` Al Viro 2018-10-23 20:45 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 20:45 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 8:11 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 8:11 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 14:22 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-23 14:22 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-23 15:43 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 15:43 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-23 17:51 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-23 21:14 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-23 21:14 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-24 12:16 ` Josh Triplett 2018-10-24 12:16 ` Josh Triplett 2018-10-25 21:14 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-25 21:14 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-27 1:10 ` Josh Triplett [this message] 2018-10-27 1:10 ` Josh Triplett 2018-10-28 21:48 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-28 21:48 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-01 16:45 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-01 16:45 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-01 21:11 ` Josh Triplett 2018-11-01 21:11 ` Josh Triplett 2018-11-02 13:13 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-02 13:13 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-01 21:50 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-02 13:33 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-02 13:33 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-03 8:36 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-03 8:36 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-03 17:37 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-03 17:37 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-03 21:06 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-03 21:06 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-03 22:23 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-03 22:23 ` Paul E. McKenney 2018-11-02 13:52 ` James Bottomley 2018-11-03 9:19 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-11-04 10:35 ` Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-11-04 10:35 ` Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-10-21 22:33 ` Joe Perches 2018-10-21 22:33 ` Joe Perches 2018-10-21 22:37 ` Randy Dunlap 2018-10-21 22:37 ` Randy Dunlap 2018-10-22 9:09 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-22 9:09 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-22 11:02 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " James Bottomley 2018-10-22 11:02 ` James Bottomley 2018-10-24 8:49 ` Laura Abbott 2018-10-24 8:49 ` Laura Abbott 2018-10-25 7:56 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant visionsofalice 2018-10-25 8:19 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-25 8:19 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman 2018-10-25 19:39 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-25 20:47 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-25 20:47 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o 2018-10-25 21:41 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-25 22:12 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " NeilBrown 2018-10-25 22:12 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-25 22:38 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-25 22:52 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " NeilBrown 2018-10-25 22:52 ` NeilBrown 2018-11-04 10:47 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-11-04 10:47 ` Geert Uytterhoeven 2018-10-25 23:06 ` Al Viro 2018-10-25 23:06 ` Al Viro 2018-10-26 2:28 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-26 5:49 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Al Viro 2018-10-26 5:49 ` Al Viro 2018-10-27 6:52 ` visionsofalice 2018-10-27 7:32 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Al Viro 2018-10-27 7:32 ` Al Viro 2018-10-27 16:18 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Tim.Bird 2018-10-27 16:18 ` Tim.Bird 2018-10-27 22:09 ` Jiri Kosina 2018-10-27 22:09 ` Jiri Kosina [not found] ` <CAK2MWOtNUTjWy5pTcGco5DNurqNCc=9CfDJ-Ko-K+6HDC55ikg@mail.gmail.com> 2018-10-27 23:07 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-27 23:40 ` Al Viro 2018-10-27 23:40 ` Al Viro 2018-10-28 21:13 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-28 21:13 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-25 23:32 ` Iván Chavero 2018-10-26 13:15 ` Eben Moglen 2018-10-26 15:50 ` Eric S. Raymond 2018-10-26 15:53 ` Eben Moglen 2018-10-26 17:32 ` visionsofalice 2018-10-26 18:31 ` Eben Moglen 2018-10-27 7:12 ` visionsofalice 2018-12-18 18:53 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant. - Analysis published? visionsofalice 2018-10-26 10:34 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant visionsofalice 2018-10-29 22:31 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Bradley M. Kuhn 2018-10-29 22:31 ` Bradley M. Kuhn 2018-12-18 19:17 ` visionsofalice 2018-10-27 5:04 ` The linux devs can rescind their license grant. - Additional restrictive terms visionsofalice 2018-12-18 20:55 ` The CoC regime is a License violation " visionsofalice 2018-12-19 1:17 ` visionsofalice 2018-12-23 16:05 ` visionsofalice 2018-10-25 22:02 ` [Ksummit-discuss] Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document NeilBrown 2018-10-25 22:02 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-25 8:06 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Pavel Machek 2018-10-25 8:06 ` Pavel Machek 2018-10-25 11:20 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-25 22:18 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " NeilBrown 2018-10-25 22:18 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-26 8:33 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-26 22:40 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " NeilBrown 2018-10-26 22:40 ` NeilBrown 2018-10-27 11:49 ` Rainer Fiebig 2018-10-21 23:36 ` Eric S. Raymond
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