From: Martin Steigerwald <Martin@lichtvoll.de>
To: Sarah Sharp <sarah.a.sharp@linux.intel.com>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
Ingo Molnar <mingo@kernel.org>,
Guenter Roeck <linux@roeck-us.net>,
Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
Dave Jones <davej@redhat.com>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
stable <stable@vger.kernel.org>,
Darren Hart <dvhart@linux.intel.com>,
ksummit-2013-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 22:03:57 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <8946487.gDYKKVgS4U@merkaba> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20130715225003.GK15531@xanatos>
Am Montag, 15. Juli 2013, 15:50:03 schrieb Sarah Sharp:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 03:38:42PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>
> > wrote:
> > > Can we please make this into a Kernel Summit discussion. I highly doubt
> > > we would solve anything, but it certainly would be a fun segment to
> > > watch :-)
> >
> > I think we should, because I think it's the kind of thing we really
> > need at the KS - talking about "process".
> >
> > At the same time, I really don't know what the format would possibly
> > be like for it to really work as a reasonable discussion. And I think
> > that is important, because this kind of subject is *not* likely
> > possible in the traditional "people sit around tables and maybe
> > somebody has a few slides" format.
> >
> > A small panel discussion with a few people (fiveish?) that have very
> > different viewpoints, along with baskets of rotten fruit set out on
> > the tables? That could be fun. And I'm serious, although we might want
> > to limit the size of the fruit to smaller berries ;)
> >
> > Sarah will bring the brownies.
>
> Peace pot brownies! I love it!
I wish you good luck for that KS session!
As someone who brought up this topic before¹ I applaud for your courage to
raise this as a kernel developer, Sarah. I took way less risk cause my only
direct contribution to the kernel was a documentation patch in 2.6.28 and thus
I have much less too loose. And Ingo treated me absolutely professionally back
then. (You will find my name more often in changelog, regarding bug reporting
and testing of fixes which is also an important activity I think.)
I didn´t think much about it since I brought up the topic and didn´t even yet
search for studies that cursing is healthy as Linus suggested to me… partly
due to putting focus to other more important topics in my life and partly
possibly due to the thought that its just me having a problem with some of the
tone on this list after having got the reactions I got in that thread.
I share some random thoughts for you, Linus and others, use them or leave them
aside as you wish:
- I think that it is possible to a) clearly express one´s own oppinion and get
a across the point and b) clearly make it obvious that this is about the
matter at hand and no attack of the person on the receiving side of the
feedback. Actually I do think this is just a plain simple communication
*skill*, thus learnable. Well I studied something like this. I can share some
key points of non-violent but still bringing across the point way of
communicating if interested.
- I am with Linus in that its important to express own emotions before at
times. And heck I saw you expressing your emotions here in this thread as
well. There is never anything wrong with expressing a emotion as there is
never anything wrong with the emotion as it is. But I do think its important
to clearly do it as an *own* emotion. A emotion I have has to do with one
person: Myself. It might be a reaction to a thought I have, maybe as a
reaction to a feedback I got, buts it totally I am who is feeling that emotion
and I am always in charge. Thus I have absolutely no issue with "I am totally
feed up with this and this" or "I am really angry at this and this happening
just again after having it explained here and there". But a comment like "you
suck cause you did this" and "its your fault" is not okay for me. I am
changing my behavior from avoiding these situations altogether to have it not
happen to me – which is a typical pattern of people feeling abused and not
guarenteed to work out – to expressing that it is so for me. And even more
importantly to accept me as a person no matter whether Linus would be calling
me names or what not as this helps me to get the courage to stand for myself.
However at times I am still reluctant to post here for fear of getting
attacked personally.
- I did read quite some of Linus posts, also angrier ones, and on a closer
look I see that many of them do *not* contain a personal attack. I agree with
some here that calling certain code crap *with* providing a reason for this
actually is beneficial. And I think that if that is a personal attack for
someone it is so cause the person identifies with her or his code.
Understandable, but it is the problem of that person just as if Linus has a
problem with a patch or a change it is *his* problem to deal with.
- I do think that a person won´t change cause I want him or her to change.
Thus I think that Linus won´t change until he really wants to, Sarah, and I
see absolutely no way how you can change him. Or vice versa. I can only ever
change myself. Actually I think I did already. I trained myself to look more
carefully at language which helped me to see that quite some of Linus language
does not contain attacks against a person, but against the code. And I allowed
myself to express my concerns about tone in this list *regardless* of the
feedback that I may get. And I assured that I will stand for myself, no matter
what others do to me. (Actually I still do not buy into the bad guy role that
Linus plays at times. This I did not change.)
- Lastly I think I would be careful with the term abuse. For me an abuse
implies that the abused is not able to avoid the treatment. Which may easily
the case for a child being abused. Or for a woman who has less physical
strength (and no experience with martial arts) than an abusive man. But as a
grown up person posting and reading in a mailing list its always my own
decision whether I buy into what I perceive as verbal attack *or not*. Whether
I stand up and say "I am not taking this" or just take it in and hurt myself
by doing it. How I react to something I receive is solely at my disposal. So I
really enjoyed your "I won´t take this" to Linus.
So I think this is not about *changing* people. But I do think its important
that a kernel developer like you spoke up and raised issues with the tone in
this list.
So I end with a suggestion for the Kernel Summit discussion, take it or leave
it:
As a first step let each one just express how he or she feels about this topic
and what she or he expects to be treated as. And then as a first challenge just
let these likely highly different view points stand beside each other and work
from there.
PS: In my Linux trainings when I talk about that still most kernel developers
are male I usually mention your USB 3 stack contribution as a notable example
of a work by a female developer.
[1] Re: Linux 3.10-rc6, 16 Jun 2013:
https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/6/16/77
Regards,
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2013-07-16 20:04 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 279+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2013-07-15 15:52 [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review Sarah Sharp
2013-07-15 17:08 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-15 17:46 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-15 17:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-15 18:04 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-15 18:17 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-15 18:46 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-15 19:07 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-15 19:07 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-15 19:53 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-15 20:41 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-15 21:01 ` Kees Cook
2013-07-15 21:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-15 22:08 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Steven Rostedt
2013-07-15 22:27 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Randy Dunlap
2013-07-15 22:36 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Sarah Sharp
2013-07-15 23:15 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-07-16 0:17 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 3:14 ` NeilBrown
2013-07-16 3:34 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 3:37 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 4:12 ` Darren Hart
2013-07-16 5:12 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-17 7:46 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Dan Carpenter
2013-07-15 23:49 ` Darren Hart
2013-07-16 2:43 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Chris Ball
2013-07-16 3:06 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 3:36 ` H. Peter Anvin
2013-07-16 15:49 ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-07-16 16:16 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 16:58 ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-07-16 17:16 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 11:48 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2013-07-16 19:31 ` H. Peter Anvin
2013-07-17 9:17 ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-07-17 14:01 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-17 14:40 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 14:43 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-19 11:59 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-17 14:43 ` Kurt H Maier
2013-07-17 15:04 ` Anca Emanuel
2013-07-17 15:12 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-19 12:08 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-19 18:42 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-19 18:56 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-19 20:33 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " James Bottomley
2013-07-19 20:43 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-19 23:46 ` NeilBrown
2013-07-19 20:03 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2013-07-20 12:35 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-21 1:02 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Daniel Phillips
2013-07-21 1:02 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-24 0:51 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-24 0:51 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-24 1:26 ` James Bottomley
2013-07-24 1:26 ` James Bottomley
2013-07-24 1:38 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-24 1:38 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-24 16:23 ` James Bottomley
2013-07-24 16:23 ` James Bottomley
2013-07-24 16:50 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-24 16:50 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-24 1:48 ` Paul Gortmaker
2013-07-24 1:48 ` Paul Gortmaker
2013-07-24 1:53 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-24 1:53 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-24 8:57 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-24 8:57 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-25 14:00 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-25 14:00 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-25 14:33 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-25 14:33 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-25 14:49 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-25 14:49 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-25 22:51 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-25 22:51 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-25 23:30 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-25 23:30 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-25 23:44 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-25 23:44 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-26 5:22 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-26 5:22 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-20 17:04 ` Ben Hutchings
2013-07-21 13:22 ` Ric Wheeler
2013-07-23 1:26 ` Li Zefan
2013-07-23 1:39 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-23 2:04 ` Li Zefan
2013-07-17 19:05 ` David Miller
2013-07-17 22:02 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-07-17 22:49 ` Randy Dunlap
2013-07-17 23:08 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Paul E. McKenney
2013-07-17 23:19 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-07-18 0:57 ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-07-16 22:54 ` Jiri Kosina
2013-07-16 23:03 ` Randy Dunlap
2013-07-16 23:11 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 23:14 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 9:38 ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-07-17 12:39 ` Al Viro
2013-07-17 8:04 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Dan Carpenter
2013-07-16 7:32 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) David Lang
2013-07-16 9:14 ` Olivier Galibert
2013-07-16 21:12 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-16 21:27 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Theodore Ts'o
2013-07-16 22:43 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-16 22:54 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 23:12 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-16 23:20 ` Joe Perches
2013-07-16 23:31 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Ric Wheeler
2013-07-16 23:53 ` Myklebust, Trond
2013-07-16 23:53 ` Myklebust, Trond
2013-07-17 1:21 ` Ric Wheeler
2013-07-17 1:21 ` Ric Wheeler
2013-07-17 7:36 ` CAI Qian
2013-07-17 14:48 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 15:09 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 17:00 ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-07-17 17:15 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-17 17:56 ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-07-17 18:05 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-17 18:42 ` Al Viro
2013-07-17 22:24 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-18 0:29 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-18 4:59 ` Al Viro
2013-07-17 17:28 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 19:02 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 17:57 ` Al Viro
2013-07-17 17:52 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-17 18:51 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 19:04 ` David Lang
2013-07-17 19:29 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 20:18 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2013-07-19 10:54 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-17 19:40 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-17 22:38 ` David Woodhouse
2013-07-17 23:05 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra
2013-07-18 2:40 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2013-07-18 3:00 ` CAI Qian
2013-07-16 23:38 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 23:46 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 14:01 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Paul Gortmaker
2013-07-17 0:32 ` Jeff Liu
2013-07-17 0:51 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 1:23 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 5:51 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-17 12:21 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 12:30 ` Ricardo Ferreira
2013-07-17 13:03 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 13:10 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-17 15:02 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 15:16 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 22:55 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-07-17 9:15 ` Jeff Liu
2013-07-17 10:58 ` James Bottomley
2013-07-17 11:13 ` Jeff Liu
2013-07-16 23:01 ` Randy Dunlap
2013-07-16 23:50 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Theodore Ts'o
2013-07-17 0:04 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 1:34 ` NeilBrown
2013-07-17 2:18 ` Ben Hutchings
2013-07-17 3:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-17 3:16 ` Ben Hutchings
2013-07-17 4:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-17 5:22 ` Darren Hart
2013-07-17 5:32 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 17:41 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Randy Dunlap
2013-07-17 17:59 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 22:18 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Willy Tarreau
2013-07-16 22:39 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-16 23:46 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Casey Schaufler
2013-07-17 1:02 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 10:10 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra
2013-07-17 14:27 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-17 18:24 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Luck, Tony
2013-07-17 18:24 ` Luck, Tony
2013-07-17 18:46 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-17 18:46 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-16 18:11 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Guenter Roeck
2013-07-15 22:38 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-15 22:50 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-16 4:03 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML David Ahern
2013-07-16 20:03 ` Martin Steigerwald [this message]
2013-07-16 1:02 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Raymond Jennings
2013-07-16 18:27 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " James Bottomley
2013-07-16 21:18 ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-07-17 6:14 ` James Bottomley
2013-07-17 21:51 ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-07-18 2:01 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2013-07-19 6:03 ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-07-19 16:58 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML H. Peter Anvin
2013-07-16 22:13 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) NeilBrown
2013-07-18 9:05 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Paolo Bonzini
2013-07-19 8:21 ` Dave Chiluk
2013-07-16 3:27 ` Li Zefan
2013-07-16 3:46 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 16:51 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) David Howells
2013-07-18 10:39 ` [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review Ingo Molnar
2013-07-18 14:32 ` J. Bruce Fields
2013-07-18 16:07 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-18 16:16 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-18 17:39 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-19 9:22 ` mistakes in code vs. maintainer flow mistakes (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Ingo Molnar
2013-07-19 10:03 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-19 12:16 ` Kurt H Maier
2013-07-19 19:01 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-19 19:16 ` Martin Steigerwald
2013-07-19 19:17 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-19 20:03 ` Kurt H Maier
2013-07-22 10:55 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-23 1:07 ` mistakes in code vs. maintainer flow mistakes Li Zefan
2013-07-23 1:16 ` Joe Perches
2013-07-22 11:04 ` mistakes in code vs. maintainer flow mistakes (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Ingo Molnar
2013-07-16 14:30 ` [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review Geert Uytterhoeven
2013-07-16 15:00 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 15:09 ` Kees Cook
2013-07-16 15:27 ` Darren Hart
2013-07-17 18:14 ` open conflicts vs. hidden conflicts (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Ingo Molnar
2013-07-17 22:42 ` NeilBrown
2013-07-18 9:32 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-18 0:42 ` [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review Thomas Gleixner
2013-07-18 3:16 ` CAI Qian
2013-07-18 3:47 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-18 4:01 ` CAI Qian
2013-07-18 5:03 ` H. Peter Anvin
2013-07-18 6:06 ` CAI Qian
2013-07-18 10:21 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-18 11:35 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-18 13:23 ` Theodore Ts'o
2013-07-18 13:30 ` Maybe it's time to shut this thread down (Was: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Theodore Ts'o
2013-07-18 15:54 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-20 21:35 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Daniel Phillips
2013-07-20 21:35 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-22 21:02 ` Luck, Tony
2013-07-22 21:02 ` Luck, Tony
2013-07-22 21:29 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-22 21:29 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-19 21:44 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-22 16:45 ` Kurt H Maier
2013-07-18 4:15 ` [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review CAI Qian
2013-07-18 15:48 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-19 10:35 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-24 10:43 ` Florian Holz
2013-07-16 14:45 ` Alex Elder
2013-07-15 19:17 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-15 19:23 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-15 19:39 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-15 22:50 ` Raymond Jennings
2013-07-16 4:52 ` Rusty Russell
2013-07-16 21:08 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-16 21:23 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-16 21:58 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2013-07-16 22:12 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-17 5:22 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-19 11:10 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-16 21:27 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 22:11 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-17 1:02 ` Rusty Russell
2013-07-17 1:37 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-17 1:54 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 3:28 ` Darren Hart
2013-07-15 22:40 ` NeilBrown
2013-07-16 6:13 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-16 15:40 ` Darren Hart
2013-07-16 18:18 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-16 2:44 ` Li Zefan
2013-07-15 19:05 ` J. Bruce Fields
2013-07-15 19:19 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-15 23:42 ` NeilBrown
2013-07-15 23:50 ` Joe Perches
2013-07-16 1:54 ` NeilBrown
2013-07-16 2:01 ` Joe Perches
2013-07-21 4:15 ` Rob Landley
2013-07-17 7:01 ` CAI Qian
2013-07-17 8:39 ` Janne Karhunen
2013-07-15 18:22 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-15 17:33 ` Darren Hart
2013-07-15 19:04 ` Rob Landley
2013-07-19 11:25 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-23 8:26 ` Rogelio Serrano
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