From: Phil Pokorny <ppokorny@penguincomputing.com> To: Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net> Cc: Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>, linux-nvdimm <linux-nvdimm@lists.01.org>, "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, Christoph Hellwig <hch@lst.de>, Jens Axboe <axboe@fb.com>, "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>, Ingo Molnar <mingo@kernel.org> Subject: Re: [Linux-nvdimm] [PATCH v2 11/20] libnd, nd_pmem: add libnd support to the pmem driver Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 17:17:15 -0700 [thread overview] Message-ID: <CAAek22GqgtvhSV44AzQNbD1wMKpN74GADLXbUiTNXrApfFhHQw@mail.gmail.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <CALCETrWcH76_P8pzK+cur50pk--VppkjG9z3ueXMAS_=x9jd1w@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net> wrote: > On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Phil Pokorny > <ppokorny@penguincomputing.com> wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net> wrote: >>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com> wrote: >>>> +config ND_E820 >>>> + tristate "E820: Support the E820-type-12 PMEM convention" >>>> + depends on X86_PMEM_LEGACY >>>> + default m if X86_PMEM_LEGACY >>>> + select LIBND >>>> + help >>>> + Prior to ACPI 6 some platforms advertised peristent memory >>>> + via type-12 e820 memory ranges. Create a libnd bus and >>>> + attach an instance of the pmem driver to these ranges. >>>> + >>> >>> How about something like: >>> >>> "This driver allows libnd to work with legacy, pre-ACPI 6 NVDIMMs. >>> This enables such devices to be exposed as block devices using PMEM. >>> >>> The legacy NVDIMM interface is problematic. This driver will not work >>> if you boot using UEFI, and some NVDIMMs and motherboards that work >>> with this driver may require proprietary code in order to work >>> reliably." >> >> Perhaps not "problematic" but "requires a BIOS in Legacy mode" >> >> It might also mention that if you use the kernel command line >> memmap=nn!ss syntax it adds >> a type 12 region to the e820 map and so you would want this support. >> >> If you have a motherboard with UEFI support for NVDIMM's that would be >> the recommended >> configuration. > > This is such a mess that I think this driver should maybe flat-out > refuse to load in this type of configuration without some scary module > option. I have some NVDIMMs that report as type 12 but need two extra > out-of-tree drivers to work safely. First, they need i2c_imc or the > equivalent (I'll try to resubmit that soon). Second, they need secret > magic NDAed register poking. The latter is very problematic. My current experience is that things may be changing to something of a de-facto standard in the area of register poking. In which case, we should be able to ask the de-facto vendor standard to be released under a non-NDA license so we can write a proper user-space library for it. Or at worst, get a proprietary source utility that can do the poking. The vendor isn't going to sell anything if they don't provide the tools their resellers and customers need. > At the very least, I think we should discourage people who don't > really know what they're doing from using this driver without care. What would be the fun in that... But seriously, speaking as Penguin Computing and a retailer of hardware, I'd rather not have the kernel telling my customers what's safe and what isn't when it's a matter of opinion. We provide a solution with support and having to tell my customers: "you need to load the module with the 'THIS_IS_UNSAFE' argument set to 3" isn't productive. Another intersesting possibility of the memmap= directive to declare a type 12 region of of memory is that you can test the driver (without the persistance) on any arbitrary region of memory in a machine. Other comments on this patch set talked about having to put virtual test hardware in qemu or kvm. Aside from the register poking, just adding memmap=xx!yy to the command line gives you something pmem can attach to and you can use to test with. I suppose you could even simulate persistance by saving off the contents and restoring it on a controlled reboot. Phil P. -- Philip Pokorny, RHCE Chief Technology Officer PENGUIN COMPUTING, Inc www.penguincomputing.com
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Phil Pokorny <ppokorny@penguincomputing.com> To: Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net> Cc: Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>, linux-nvdimm <linux-nvdimm@ml01.01.org>, "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, Christoph Hellwig <hch@lst.de>, Jens Axboe <axboe@fb.com>, "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>, Ingo Molnar <mingo@kernel.org> Subject: Re: [Linux-nvdimm] [PATCH v2 11/20] libnd, nd_pmem: add libnd support to the pmem driver Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 17:17:15 -0700 [thread overview] Message-ID: <CAAek22GqgtvhSV44AzQNbD1wMKpN74GADLXbUiTNXrApfFhHQw@mail.gmail.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <CALCETrWcH76_P8pzK+cur50pk--VppkjG9z3ueXMAS_=x9jd1w@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net> wrote: > On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Phil Pokorny > <ppokorny@penguincomputing.com> wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net> wrote: >>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com> wrote: >>>> +config ND_E820 >>>> + tristate "E820: Support the E820-type-12 PMEM convention" >>>> + depends on X86_PMEM_LEGACY >>>> + default m if X86_PMEM_LEGACY >>>> + select LIBND >>>> + help >>>> + Prior to ACPI 6 some platforms advertised peristent memory >>>> + via type-12 e820 memory ranges. Create a libnd bus and >>>> + attach an instance of the pmem driver to these ranges. >>>> + >>> >>> How about something like: >>> >>> "This driver allows libnd to work with legacy, pre-ACPI 6 NVDIMMs. >>> This enables such devices to be exposed as block devices using PMEM. >>> >>> The legacy NVDIMM interface is problematic. This driver will not work >>> if you boot using UEFI, and some NVDIMMs and motherboards that work >>> with this driver may require proprietary code in order to work >>> reliably." >> >> Perhaps not "problematic" but "requires a BIOS in Legacy mode" >> >> It might also mention that if you use the kernel command line >> memmap=nn!ss syntax it adds >> a type 12 region to the e820 map and so you would want this support. >> >> If you have a motherboard with UEFI support for NVDIMM's that would be >> the recommended >> configuration. > > This is such a mess that I think this driver should maybe flat-out > refuse to load in this type of configuration without some scary module > option. I have some NVDIMMs that report as type 12 but need two extra > out-of-tree drivers to work safely. First, they need i2c_imc or the > equivalent (I'll try to resubmit that soon). Second, they need secret > magic NDAed register poking. The latter is very problematic. My current experience is that things may be changing to something of a de-facto standard in the area of register poking. In which case, we should be able to ask the de-facto vendor standard to be released under a non-NDA license so we can write a proper user-space library for it. Or at worst, get a proprietary source utility that can do the poking. The vendor isn't going to sell anything if they don't provide the tools their resellers and customers need. > At the very least, I think we should discourage people who don't > really know what they're doing from using this driver without care. What would be the fun in that... But seriously, speaking as Penguin Computing and a retailer of hardware, I'd rather not have the kernel telling my customers what's safe and what isn't when it's a matter of opinion. We provide a solution with support and having to tell my customers: "you need to load the module with the 'THIS_IS_UNSAFE' argument set to 3" isn't productive. Another intersesting possibility of the memmap= directive to declare a type 12 region of of memory is that you can test the driver (without the persistance) on any arbitrary region of memory in a machine. Other comments on this patch set talked about having to put virtual test hardware in qemu or kvm. Aside from the register poking, just adding memmap=xx!yy to the command line gives you something pmem can attach to and you can use to test with. I suppose you could even simulate persistance by saving off the contents and restoring it on a controlled reboot. Phil P. -- Philip Pokorny, RHCE Chief Technology Officer PENGUIN COMPUTING, Inc www.penguincomputing.com
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-04-29 0:17 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 179+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2015-04-28 18:24 [PATCH v2 00/20] libnd: non-volatile memory device support Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:24 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:24 ` [PATCH v2 01/20] e820, efi: add ACPI 6.0 persistent memory types Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:24 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 20:49 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 20:49 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 20:57 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 20:57 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 21:05 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 21:05 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-05-15 15:43 ` [Linux-nvdimm] " Jeff Moyer 2015-05-15 15:48 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-18 19:28 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 18:24 ` [PATCH v2 02/20] libnd, nd_acpi: initial libnd infrastructure and NFIT support Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:24 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-30 23:23 ` Rafael J. Wysocki 2015-04-30 23:23 ` Rafael J. Wysocki 2015-05-01 0:39 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-01 0:39 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-01 1:21 ` Rafael J. Wysocki 2015-05-01 1:21 ` Rafael J. Wysocki 2015-05-01 16:23 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-01 16:23 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-04 23:58 ` Rafael J. Wysocki 2015-05-04 23:58 ` Rafael J. Wysocki 2015-05-04 23:46 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-04 23:46 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-15 19:44 ` [Linux-nvdimm] " Jeff Moyer 2015-05-15 20:41 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:24 ` [PATCH v2 03/20] nd_acpi, nfit-test: manufactured NFITs for interface development Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:24 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-15 20:25 ` [Linux-nvdimm] " Jeff Moyer 2015-05-15 20:50 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:24 ` [PATCH v2 04/20] libnd: ndctl class device, and nd bus attributes Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:24 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-15 21:00 ` [Linux-nvdimm] " Jeff Moyer 2015-04-28 18:24 ` [PATCH v2 05/20] libnd, nd_acpi: dimm/memory-devices Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:24 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-01 17:48 ` [Linux-nvdimm] " Toshi Kani 2015-05-01 17:48 ` Toshi Kani 2015-05-01 18:22 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-01 18:22 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-01 18:19 ` Toshi Kani 2015-05-01 18:19 ` Toshi Kani 2015-05-01 18:43 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-01 18:43 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-01 19:15 ` Toshi Kani 2015-05-01 19:15 ` Toshi Kani 2015-05-01 19:38 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-01 19:38 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-01 20:08 ` Toshi Kani 2015-05-01 20:08 ` Toshi Kani 2015-04-28 18:24 ` [PATCH v2 06/20] libnd: ndctl.h, the nd ioctl abi Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:24 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:24 ` [PATCH v2 07/20] libnd, nd_dimm: dimm driver and base libnd device-driver infrastructure Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:24 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-20 16:59 ` [Linux-nvdimm] " Elliott, Robert (Server Storage) 2015-05-20 16:59 ` Elliott, Robert (Server Storage) 2015-05-20 17:02 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-20 17:02 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:24 ` [PATCH v2 08/20] libnd, nd_acpi: regions (block-data-window, persistent memory, volatile memory) Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:24 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-29 15:53 ` [Linux-nvdimm] " Elliott, Robert (Server Storage) 2015-04-29 15:53 ` Elliott, Robert (Server Storage) 2015-04-29 15:59 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-29 15:59 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-04 20:26 ` Toshi Kani 2015-05-04 20:26 ` Toshi Kani 2015-05-09 23:55 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-09 23:55 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-28 18:36 ` Toshi Kani 2015-05-28 18:36 ` Toshi Kani 2015-05-28 19:59 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-28 19:59 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-28 20:51 ` Linda Knippers 2015-05-28 20:51 ` Linda Knippers 2015-05-28 20:58 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-28 20:58 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` [PATCH v2 09/20] libnd: support for legacy (non-aliasing) nvdimms Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` [PATCH v2 10/20] pmem: use ida Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-29 18:25 ` [Linux-nvdimm] " Toshi Kani 2015-04-29 18:25 ` Toshi Kani 2015-04-29 18:59 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-29 18:59 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-29 18:53 ` Toshi Kani 2015-04-29 18:53 ` Toshi Kani 2015-04-29 20:49 ` Linda Knippers 2015-04-29 20:49 ` Linda Knippers 2015-04-29 21:36 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-29 21:36 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` [PATCH v2 11/20] libnd, nd_pmem: add libnd support to the pmem driver Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 21:04 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 21:04 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 22:21 ` [Linux-nvdimm] " Phil Pokorny 2015-04-28 22:21 ` Phil Pokorny 2015-04-28 22:58 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 22:58 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-29 0:17 ` Phil Pokorny [this message] 2015-04-29 0:17 ` Phil Pokorny 2015-04-29 0:28 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-29 0:28 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-29 15:55 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-29 15:55 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-29 18:36 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-29 18:36 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 18:25 ` [PATCH v2 12/20] libnd, nd_acpi: add interleave-set state-tracking infrastructure Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` [PATCH v2 13/20] libnd: namespace indices: read and validate Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` [PATCH v2 14/20] libnd: pmem label sets and namespace instantiation Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` [PATCH v2 15/20] libnd: blk labels " Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` [PATCH v2 16/20] libnd: write pmem label set Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` [PATCH v2 17/20] libnd: write blk " Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` [PATCH v2 18/20] libnd: infrastructure for btt devices Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-12 16:33 ` [Linux-nvdimm] " Toshi Kani 2015-05-12 16:33 ` Toshi Kani 2015-05-15 0:41 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-15 0:41 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-15 4:25 ` Elliott, Robert (Server Storage) 2015-05-15 4:25 ` Elliott, Robert (Server Storage) 2015-04-28 18:25 ` [PATCH v2 19/20] nd_btt: atomic sector updates Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:25 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-17 1:19 ` [Linux-nvdimm] " Elliott, Robert (Server Storage) 2015-05-17 1:19 ` Elliott, Robert (Server Storage) 2015-05-17 3:22 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-17 3:22 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-20 17:20 ` Elliott, Robert (Server Storage) 2015-05-20 17:20 ` Elliott, Robert (Server Storage) 2015-05-18 22:38 ` Verma, Vishal L 2015-05-18 22:38 ` Verma, Vishal L 2015-04-28 18:26 ` [PATCH v2 20/20] libnd, nd_acpi, nd_blk: driver for BLK-mode access persistent memory Dan Williams 2015-04-28 18:26 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 21:10 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 21:10 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 22:30 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 22:30 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 23:06 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 23:06 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-29 17:10 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-29 17:10 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-29 19:28 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-29 19:28 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 20:52 ` [PATCH v2 00/20] libnd: non-volatile memory device support Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 20:52 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 20:59 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 20:59 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 21:06 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 21:06 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 22:28 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 22:28 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 23:05 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-28 23:05 ` Andy Lutomirski 2015-04-30 20:56 ` Ross Zwisler 2015-04-30 20:56 ` Ross Zwisler 2015-04-28 21:24 ` [Linux-nvdimm] " Elliott, Robert (Server Storage) 2015-04-28 21:24 ` Elliott, Robert (Server Storage) 2015-04-28 22:15 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-28 22:15 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-07 7:29 ` Christoph Hellwig 2015-05-07 7:29 ` Christoph Hellwig 2015-04-29 0:25 ` Rafael J. Wysocki 2015-04-29 0:25 ` Rafael J. Wysocki 2015-04-29 1:22 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-29 1:22 ` Dan Williams 2015-04-29 1:22 ` Dan Williams 2015-05-05 0:06 ` Rafael J. Wysocki 2015-05-05 0:06 ` Rafael J. Wysocki 2015-05-05 0:06 ` Rafael J. Wysocki 2015-05-08 6:31 ` Williams, Dan J 2015-05-08 6:31 ` Williams, Dan J 2015-05-08 6:31 ` Williams, Dan J
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