[Ksummit-discuss] [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Talking code or talking in code!

[Ksummit-discuss] [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Talking code or talking in code!

[Shuah Khan]

We as a community talk code in emails. Do we talk in code at times? How
effective are we in communicating with each other?

I would like to propose a topic to explore our communication styles to
get a better understanding of how effective we are. I am hoping, we
could become more productive, if we get some insight into whether or not
we talk in code while we talk code.

We could do this by inviting Isabella Ferreira, PhD Student in Computer
Engineering, Polytechnique Montréal to tell us about Sentimine,
which is a plugin on top of the cregit platform focused on analyzing
communication in open source communities. It will include a short survey
focused on analyzing a few emails for clarity and perception.

I participated in one of her previous presentations and found it a
useful experiment, as it made me stop and think about my understanding
and perception of interactions.

thanks,
-- Shuah

Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Talking code or talking in code!

[Theodore Ts'o]

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 04:19:20PM -0600, Shuah Khan wrote:
> We as a community talk code in emails. Do we talk in code at times? How
> effective are we in communicating with each other?
> 
> I would like to propose a topic to explore our communication styles to
> get a better understanding of how effective we are. I am hoping, we
> could become more productive, if we get some insight into whether or not
> we talk in code while we talk code.
> 
> We could do this by inviting Isabella Ferreira, PhD Student in Computer
> Engineering, Polytechnique Montréal to tell us about Sentimine,
> which is a plugin on top of the cregit platform focused on analyzing
> communication in open source communities. It will include a short survey
> focused on analyzing a few emails for clarity and perception.

Hi Shuah,

If the goal is to get Isabella's ideas more exposure, perhaps it would
be better to ask if she would be willing to give a presentation at the
more open Kernel Summit track during the LPC?

It would appear that it's fairly early days for her work, from doing
some web searching, the only thing I could really find was her 2019
Open Source Leadership Summit presentations (slides here[1]) and the
more formal academic paper[2].

[1] https://events.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/OSS_Summit_Presentation.pdf
[2] http://mcis.polymtl.ca/publications/2019/SEMotion_2019.pdf

As near as I can tell the talk was not video recorded; which is a
shame, since I wasn't able to pick up from the slide presentation the
same kind of excitement that you clearly have over her work.  I was
also very confused about how cregit (which analyzes code) mentioned in
the last two slides relates to the work described in the first 80% of
the slide deck, which appears to be analyzing mailing list text.

I'd also think that if the goal is to have a conversation about
communication styles, having that discussion with a wider circle might
be more productive.  Or did you have something in mind about some
decision that might get made at the Maintainer's Summit?

	      	    	     	    - Ted

Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Talking code or talking in code!

[Matthew Wilcox]

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I'd be interested to know how this compares to Dawn Foster's work that was
presented last year:
https://ossna18.sched.com/event/FAON/kernel-mailing-list-collaboration-dawn-m-foster-the-scale-factory

On Thu., May 30, 2019, 22:15 Theodore Ts'o, <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:

> On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 04:19:20PM -0600, Shuah Khan wrote:
> > We as a community talk code in emails. Do we talk in code at times? How
> > effective are we in communicating with each other?
> >
> > I would like to propose a topic to explore our communication styles to
> > get a better understanding of how effective we are. I am hoping, we
> > could become more productive, if we get some insight into whether or not
> > we talk in code while we talk code.
> >
> > We could do this by inviting Isabella Ferreira, PhD Student in Computer
> > Engineering, Polytechnique Montréal to tell us about Sentimine,
> > which is a plugin on top of the cregit platform focused on analyzing
> > communication in open source communities. It will include a short survey
> > focused on analyzing a few emails for clarity and perception.
>
> Hi Shuah,
>
> If the goal is to get Isabella's ideas more exposure, perhaps it would
> be better to ask if she would be willing to give a presentation at the
> more open Kernel Summit track during the LPC?
>
> It would appear that it's fairly early days for her work, from doing
> some web searching, the only thing I could really find was her 2019
> Open Source Leadership Summit presentations (slides here[1]) and the
> more formal academic paper[2].
>
> [1]
> https://events.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/OSS_Summit_Presentation.pdf
> [2] http://mcis.polymtl.ca/publications/2019/SEMotion_2019.pdf
>
> As near as I can tell the talk was not video recorded; which is a
> shame, since I wasn't able to pick up from the slide presentation the
> same kind of excitement that you clearly have over her work.  I was
> also very confused about how cregit (which analyzes code) mentioned in
> the last two slides relates to the work described in the first 80% of
> the slide deck, which appears to be analyzing mailing list text.
>
> I'd also think that if the goal is to have a conversation about
> communication styles, having that discussion with a wider circle might
> be more productive.  Or did you have something in mind about some
> decision that might get made at the Maintainer's Summit?
>
>                                     - Ted
> _______________________________________________
> Ksummit-discuss mailing list
> Ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ksummit-discuss
>

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Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Talking code or talking in code!

[Laura Abbott]

On 5/30/19 10:42 PM, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
> I'd be interested to know how this compares to Dawn Foster's work that was presented last year: https://ossna18.sched.com/event/FAON/kernel-mailing-list-collaboration-dawn-m-foster-the-scale-factory
> 

I saw Dawn Fosters's talk a few times. Dawn Foster's work was focused more on properties
effecting communication (companies, time zones etc.) than communication style
from what I remember. I don't think actual sentiment behind the e-mails was
covered much. (I could also only be remembering the graphs I saw)

Thanks,
Laura
  

> On Thu., May 30, 2019, 22:15 Theodore Ts'o, <tytso@mit.edu <mailto:tytso@mit.edu>> wrote:
> 
>     On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 04:19:20PM -0600, Shuah Khan wrote:
>      > We as a community talk code in emails. Do we talk in code at times? How
>      > effective are we in communicating with each other?
>      >
>      > I would like to propose a topic to explore our communication styles to
>      > get a better understanding of how effective we are. I am hoping, we
>      > could become more productive, if we get some insight into whether or not
>      > we talk in code while we talk code.
>      >
>      > We could do this by inviting Isabella Ferreira, PhD Student in Computer
>      > Engineering, Polytechnique Montréal to tell us about Sentimine,
>      > which is a plugin on top of the cregit platform focused on analyzing
>      > communication in open source communities. It will include a short survey
>      > focused on analyzing a few emails for clarity and perception.
> 
>     Hi Shuah,
> 
>     If the goal is to get Isabella's ideas more exposure, perhaps it would
>     be better to ask if she would be willing to give a presentation at the
>     more open Kernel Summit track during the LPC?
> 
>     It would appear that it's fairly early days for her work, from doing
>     some web searching, the only thing I could really find was her 2019
>     Open Source Leadership Summit presentations (slides here[1]) and the
>     more formal academic paper[2].
> 
>     [1] https://events.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/OSS_Summit_Presentation.pdf
>     [2] http://mcis.polymtl.ca/publications/2019/SEMotion_2019.pdf
> 
>     As near as I can tell the talk was not video recorded; which is a
>     shame, since I wasn't able to pick up from the slide presentation the
>     same kind of excitement that you clearly have over her work.  I was
>     also very confused about how cregit (which analyzes code) mentioned in
>     the last two slides relates to the work described in the first 80% of
>     the slide deck, which appears to be analyzing mailing list text.
> 
>     I'd also think that if the goal is to have a conversation about
>     communication styles, having that discussion with a wider circle might
>     be more productive.  Or did you have something in mind about some
>     decision that might get made at the Maintainer's Summit?
> 
>                                          - Ted
>     _______________________________________________
>     Ksummit-discuss mailing list
>     Ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org <mailto:Ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>     https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ksummit-discuss
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ksummit-discuss mailing list
> Ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ksummit-discuss
> 

Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Talking code or talking in code!

[Shuah Khan]

On 5/31/19 6:12 AM, Laura Abbott wrote:
> On 5/30/19 10:42 PM, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
>> I'd be interested to know how this compares to Dawn Foster's work that 
>> was presented last year: 
>> https://ossna18.sched.com/event/FAON/kernel-mailing-list-collaboration-dawn-m-foster-the-scale-factory 
>>
>>
> 
> I saw Dawn Fosters's talk a few times. Dawn Foster's work was focused 
> more on properties
> effecting communication (companies, time zones etc.) than communication 
> style
> from what I remember. I don't think actual sentiment behind the e-mails was
> covered much. (I could also only be remembering the graphs I saw)
> 

Right. I helped Dawn Foster during her early stages of research.

The focus of her research collaboration across developers from different
companies with potentially different goals and working remotely with
people around the globe. It didn't look at sentiment in communication.

thanks,
-- Shuah

Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Talking code or talking in code!

[Shuah Khan]

Hi Ted,

On 5/30/19 8:14 PM, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 04:19:20PM -0600, Shuah Khan wrote:
>> We as a community talk code in emails. Do we talk in code at times? How
>> effective are we in communicating with each other?
>>
>> I would like to propose a topic to explore our communication styles to
>> get a better understanding of how effective we are. I am hoping, we
>> could become more productive, if we get some insight into whether or not
>> we talk in code while we talk code.
>>
>> We could do this by inviting Isabella Ferreira, PhD Student in Computer
>> Engineering, Polytechnique Montréal to tell us about Sentimine,
>> which is a plugin on top of the cregit platform focused on analyzing
>> communication in open source communities. It will include a short survey
>> focused on analyzing a few emails for clarity and perception.
> 
> Hi Shuah,
> 
> If the goal is to get Isabella's ideas more exposure, perhaps it would
> be better to ask if she would be willing to give a presentation at the
> more open Kernel Summit track during the LPC?

Isabella sent in a proposal for a BOF session at LPC. She is looking
to social her research and more importantly, she is looking to validate
her analysis engine with real data. She has been working on refining
it which is currently using various Linux email lists.

> 
> It would appear that it's fairly early days for her work, from doing
> some web searching, the only thing I could really find was her 2019
> Open Source Leadership Summit presentations (slides here[1]) and the
> more formal academic paper[2].
> 
> [1] https://events.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/OSS_Summit_Presentation.pdf
> [2] http://mcis.polymtl.ca/publications/2019/SEMotion_2019.pdf
> 

Right. It is early in some sense and ready for comparing human
perceptions with the analysis the tool is doing to validate and
refine the tool.

> As near as I can tell the talk was not video recorded; which is a
> shame, since I wasn't able to pick up from the slide presentation the
> same kind of excitement that you clearly have over her work.  I was
> also very confused about how cregit (which analyzes code) mentioned in
> the last two slides relates to the work described in the first 80% of
> the slide deck, which appears to be analyzing mailing list text.
> 

I went looking for recording as well prior to sending this proposal.
It would have been useful to get a better idea of the research, if
we had a recording.

> I'd also think that if the goal is to have a conversation about
> communication styles, having that discussion with a wider circle might
> be more productive.  Or did you have something in mind about some
> decision that might get made at the Maintainer's Summit?
> 

She is planning to cover wider audience from other open source
communities at the BOF if it gets accepted of course.

As for you second question:

"Or did you have something in mind about some decision that might get
  made at the Maintainer's Summit?"

The answer is no. I am not looking for any decisions and/or outcomes
based on this proposal.

Let me go over my vision for this time slot at the Maintainers Summit
if we choose to add it. This isn't going to be a long deep dive session
on the research. I asked Isabella to work with the following outline:

- A short summary of Sentimine
- A short survey of 2 or 3 emails. We do the survey - I can have her
   share the survey format ahead of time. Based on my recollection of
   the survey from OSLS presentation, it asks participants to identify
   the tone of the email. Positive/negative/neutral.
- Isabella compares these results to the tool's analysis. The goal
   is to see how far off the tool's analysis from real developers
   take on these emails.

My observation is that the tool is missing a subjective and context
component in the analysis. It might have improved since the OSLS time.

This research and tool based on this research is going to continue
with or without our participation. We as community and our emails
are the raw data fueling this research and tool. I think we can add
value with our direct feedback on the tool and its analysis to refine
it and tune it with real analysis.

This feedback coming from maintainers and developers that have
been doing the longest will be very valuable. I consider this group
of people at this summit is as close it gets to the heart of the
community. As a result, the feedback from this group can make this
tool stronger for the rest of the open source communities.

In addition, I think the tool should also look at clarity of
communication not just tone. To me this is the most useful part for
us. My motivation and goal is to explore if we can take this opportunity
to influence the direction of this research to look at what would be
useful to us as a community.

Hope this helps understand the reasoning behind this proposal.

thanks,
-- Shuah

Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Talking code or talking in code!

[Joe Perches]

On Fri, 2019-05-31 at 09:42 -0600, Shuah Khan wrote:
> Isabella sent in a proposal for a BOF session at LPC. She is looking
> to social her research

What does it mean to social her research?

> and more importantly, she is looking to validate
> her analysis engine with real data.

I expect validation will always be a difficult proposition.
case in point is the phrase "social her research".

Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Talking code or talking in code!

[Shuah Khan]

On 5/31/19 10:25 AM, Joe Perches wrote:
> On Fri, 2019-05-31 at 09:42 -0600, Shuah Khan wrote:
>> Isabella sent in a proposal for a BOF session at LPC. She is looking
>> to social her research
> 
> What does it mean to social her research?

It is supposed to be socialize - In any case, what I meant to say is
that she is looking for feedback and real data to fine tune her
research and tool.

> 
>> and more importantly, she is looking to validate
>> her analysis engine with real data.
> 
> I expect validation will always be a difficult proposition.
> case in point is the phrase "social her research".
> 
> 

Please see above. It is a typo on my part.

thanks,
-- Shuah

Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Talking code or talking in code!

[Mark Brown]

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On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 09:42:52AM -0600, Shuah Khan wrote:

> Let me go over my vision for this time slot at the Maintainers Summit
> if we choose to add it. This isn't going to be a long deep dive session
> on the research. I asked Isabella to work with the following outline:

> - A short summary of Sentimine
> - A short survey of 2 or 3 emails. We do the survey - I can have her
>   share the survey format ahead of time. Based on my recollection of
>   the survey from OSLS presentation, it asks participants to identify
>   the tone of the email. Positive/negative/neutral.
> - Isabella compares these results to the tool's analysis. The goal
>   is to see how far off the tool's analysis from real developers
>   take on these emails.

Does that need to be done at the summit or could it be done offline with
the summit attendees (or with a list of people pulled from the active
developers stats or something for that matter)?  But then...

> In addition, I think the tool should also look at clarity of
> communication not just tone. To me this is the most useful part for
> us. My motivation and goal is to explore if we can take this opportunity
> to influence the direction of this research to look at what would be
> useful to us as a community.

...it does sound like a useful way of kicking off a discussion.  Perhaps
the survey could be done in advance and then the discussion jump
straight on to any differences in evaluation?  I do agree that clarity
is worth looking at, especially with regard to non-native English
speakers.

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Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Talking code or talking in code!

[Shuah Khan]

On 6/3/19 9:51 AM, Mark Brown wrote:
> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 09:42:52AM -0600, Shuah Khan wrote:
> 
>> Let me go over my vision for this time slot at the Maintainers Summit
>> if we choose to add it. This isn't going to be a long deep dive session
>> on the research. I asked Isabella to work with the following outline:
> 
>> - A short summary of Sentimine
>> - A short survey of 2 or 3 emails. We do the survey - I can have her
>>    share the survey format ahead of time. Based on my recollection of
>>    the survey from OSLS presentation, it asks participants to identify
>>    the tone of the email. Positive/negative/neutral.
>> - Isabella compares these results to the tool's analysis. The goal
>>    is to see how far off the tool's analysis from real developers
>>    take on these emails.
> 
> Does that need to be done at the summit or could it be done offline with
> the summit attendees (or with a list of people pulled from the active
> developers stats or something for that matter)?  But then...
> 

I like this idea. This helps us gather data from more developers than
just the Maintainer summit attendees. We can do this after the trial
run at the Maintainer summit, provided we do add the topic to the
agenda.

>> In addition, I think the tool should also look at clarity of
>> communication not just tone. To me this is the most useful part for
>> us. My motivation and goal is to explore if we can take this opportunity
>> to influence the direction of this research to look at what would be
>> useful to us as a community.
> 
> ...it does sound like a useful way of kicking off a discussion.  Perhaps
> the survey could be done in advance and then the discussion jump
> straight on to any differences in evaluation?  I do agree that clarity
> is worth looking at, especially with regard to non-native English
> speakers.
> 

Doing survey ahead of time would help us spend more time on differences
in evaluation and help identify areas for improvement in the tool and
the assumptions it is making.

If we chose to go this route, I can work with Isabella to send the
survey out a day or two in advance to gather data.

thanks,
-- Shuah

Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] (withdrawn) Talking code or talking in code!

[Shuah Khan]

On 6/3/19 11:39 AM, Shuah Khan wrote:
> On 6/3/19 9:51 AM, Mark Brown wrote:
>> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 09:42:52AM -0600, Shuah Khan wrote:
>>
>>> Let me go over my vision for this time slot at the Maintainers Summit
>>> if we choose to add it. This isn't going to be a long deep dive session
>>> on the research. I asked Isabella to work with the following outline:
>>
>>> - A short summary of Sentimine
>>> - A short survey of 2 or 3 emails. We do the survey - I can have her
>>>    share the survey format ahead of time. Based on my recollection of
>>>    the survey from OSLS presentation, it asks participants to identify
>>>    the tone of the email. Positive/negative/neutral.
>>> - Isabella compares these results to the tool's analysis. The goal
>>>    is to see how far off the tool's analysis from real developers
>>>    take on these emails.
>>
>> Does that need to be done at the summit or could it be done offline with
>> the summit attendees (or with a list of people pulled from the active
>> developers stats or something for that matter)?  But then...
>>
> 
> I like this idea. This helps us gather data from more developers than
> just the Maintainer summit attendees. We can do this after the trial
> run at the Maintainer summit, provided we do add the topic to the
> agenda.
> 
>>> In addition, I think the tool should also look at clarity of
>>> communication not just tone. To me this is the most useful part for
>>> us. My motivation and goal is to explore if we can take this opportunity
>>> to influence the direction of this research to look at what would be
>>> useful to us as a community.
>>
>> ...it does sound like a useful way of kicking off a discussion.  Perhaps
>> the survey could be done in advance and then the discussion jump
>> straight on to any differences in evaluation?  I do agree that clarity
>> is worth looking at, especially with regard to non-native English
>> speakers.
>>
> 
> Doing survey ahead of time would help us spend more time on differences
> in evaluation and help identify areas for improvement in the tool and
> the assumptions it is making.
> 
> If we chose to go this route, I can work with Isabella to send the
> survey out a day or two in advance to gather data.
> 

Hi Ted,

The research to get clarity of communication hasn't produced results
that could of any value so far. It needs more work. Focusing on just
tone in my mind is one dimensional and not useful.

I don't see the point in wasting cycles at Maintainer and Kernel summits
on this topic.

I deiced to withdraw this proposal. Thanks for the time and discussion.

thanks,
-- Shuah