Linux-Fsdevel Archive on lore.kernel.org
 help / Atom feed
From: Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com>
To: Jerome Glisse <jglisse@redhat.com>
Cc: Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>,
	John Hubbard <jhubbard@nvidia.com>, Jan Kara <jack@suse.cz>,
	Matthew Wilcox <willy@infradead.org>,
	John Hubbard <john.hubbard@gmail.com>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	Linux MM <linux-mm@kvack.org>,
	tom@talpey.com, Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>,
	benve@cisco.com, Christoph Hellwig <hch@infradead.org>,
	Christopher Lameter <cl@linux.com>,
	"Dalessandro, Dennis" <dennis.dalessandro@intel.com>,
	Doug Ledford <dledford@redhat.com>,
	Jason Gunthorpe <jgg@ziepe.ca>, Michal Hocko <mhocko@kernel.org>,
	Mike Marciniszyn <mike.marciniszyn@intel.com>,
	rcampbell@nvidia.com,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/2] mm: introduce put_user_page*(), placeholder versions
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 09:51:27 +1100
Message-ID: <20190116225126.GS4205@dastard> (raw)
Message-ID: <20190116225127.-wm_xOPD9qTFAJaYcKSnW3NHnD1sQ_hOiv7j12EcCtU@z> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20190116145016.GB3617@redhat.com>

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 09:50:16AM -0500, Jerome Glisse wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 03:34:55PM +1100, Dave Chinner wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 09:23:12PM -0500, Jerome Glisse wrote:
> > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 06:01:09PM -0800, Dan Williams wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 5:56 PM Jerome Glisse <jglisse@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 04:44:41PM -0800, John Hubbard wrote:
> > > > [..]
> > > > > To make it clear.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lock code:
> > > > >     GUP()
> > > > >         ...
> > > > >         lock_page(page);
> > > > >         if (PageWriteback(page)) {
> > > > >             unlock_page(page);
> > > > >             wait_stable_page(page);
> > > > >             goto retry;
> > > > >         }
> > > > >         atomic_add(page->refcount, PAGE_PIN_BIAS);
> > > > >         unlock_page(page);
> > > > >
> > > > >     test_set_page_writeback()
> > > > >         bool pinned = false;
> > > > >         ...
> > > > >         pinned = page_is_pin(page); // could be after TestSetPageWriteback
> > > > >         TestSetPageWriteback(page);
> > > > >         ...
> > > > >         return pinned;
> > > > >
> > > > > Memory barrier:
> > > > >     GUP()
> > > > >         ...
> > > > >         atomic_add(page->refcount, PAGE_PIN_BIAS);
> > > > >         smp_mb();
> > > > >         if (PageWriteback(page)) {
> > > > >             atomic_add(page->refcount, -PAGE_PIN_BIAS);
> > > > >             wait_stable_page(page);
> > > > >             goto retry;
> > > > >         }
> > > > >
> > > > >     test_set_page_writeback()
> > > > >         bool pinned = false;
> > > > >         ...
> > > > >         TestSetPageWriteback(page);
> > > > >         smp_wmb();
> > > > >         pinned = page_is_pin(page);
> > > > >         ...
> > > > >         return pinned;
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > One is not more complex than the other. One can contend, the other
> > > > > will _never_ contend.
> > > > 
> > > > The complexity is in the validation of lockless algorithms. It's
> > > > easier to reason about locks than barriers for the long term
> > > > maintainability of this code. I'm with Jan and John on wanting to
> > > > explore lock_page() before a barrier-based scheme.
> > > 
> > > How is the above hard to validate ?
> > 
> > Well, if you think it's so easy, then please write the test cases so
> > we can add them to fstests and make sure that we don't break it in
> > future.
> > 
> > If you can't write filesystem test cases that exercise these race
> > conditions reliably, then the answer to your question is "it is
> > extremely hard to validate" and the correct thing to do is to start
> > with the simple lock_page() based algorithm.
> > 
> > Premature optimisation in code this complex is something we really,
> > really need to avoid.
> 
> Litmus test shows that this never happens, i am attaching 2 litmus
> test one with barrier and one without. Without barrier we can see
> the double negative !PageWriteback in GUP and !page_pinned() in
> test_set_page_writeback() (0:EAX = 0; 1:EAX = 0; below)

That's not a regression test, nor does it actually test the code
that the kernel runs. It's just an extremely simplified model of
a small part of the algorithm. Sure, that specific interaction is
fine, but that in no way reflects the complexity of the code or the
interactions with other code that interacts with that state. And
it's not something we can use to detect that some future change has
broken gup vs writeback synchronisation.

Memory barriers might be fast, but they are hell for anyone but the
person who wrote the algorithm to understand.  If a simple page lock
is good enough and doesn't cause performance problems, then use the
simple page lock mechanism and stop trying to be clever.

Other people who will have to understand and debug issues in this
code are much less accepting of such clever algorithms. We've
been badly burnt on repeated occasions by broken memory barriers in
code heavily optimised for performance (*cough* rwsems *cough*), so
I'm extremely wary of using memory ordering dependent algorithms in
places where they are not necessary.

Cheers,

Dave.
-- 
Dave Chinner
david@fromorbit.com

  parent reply index

Thread overview: 213+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-12-04  0:17 [PATCH 0/2] put_user_page*(): start converting the call sites john.hubbard
2018-12-04  0:17 ` [PATCH 1/2] mm: introduce put_user_page*(), placeholder versions john.hubbard
2018-12-04  7:53   ` Mike Rapoport
2018-12-05  1:40     ` John Hubbard
2018-12-04 20:28   ` Dan Williams
2018-12-04 21:56     ` John Hubbard
2018-12-04 23:03       ` Dan Williams
2018-12-05  0:36         ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-05  0:40           ` Dan Williams
2018-12-05  0:59             ` John Hubbard
2018-12-05  0:58         ` John Hubbard
2018-12-05  1:00           ` Dan Williams
2018-12-05  1:15           ` Matthew Wilcox
2018-12-05  1:44             ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-05  1:57               ` John Hubbard
2018-12-07  2:45                 ` John Hubbard
2018-12-07 19:16                   ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-07 19:26                     ` Dan Williams
2018-12-07 19:40                       ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-08  0:52                     ` John Hubbard
2018-12-08  2:24                       ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-10 10:28                         ` Jan Kara
2018-12-12 15:03                           ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-12 16:27                             ` Dan Williams
2018-12-12 17:02                               ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-12 17:49                                 ` Dan Williams
2018-12-12 19:07                                   ` John Hubbard
2018-12-12 21:30                               ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-12 21:40                                 ` Dan Williams
2018-12-12 21:53                                   ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-12 22:11                                     ` Matthew Wilcox
2018-12-12 22:16                                       ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-12 23:37                                     ` Jason Gunthorpe
2018-12-12 23:46                                       ` John Hubbard
2018-12-12 23:54                                       ` Dan Williams
2018-12-13  0:01                                       ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-13  0:18                                         ` Dan Williams
2018-12-13  0:44                                           ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-13  3:26                                             ` Jason Gunthorpe
2018-12-13  3:20                                         ` Jason Gunthorpe
2018-12-13 12:43                                           ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-13 13:40                                             ` Tom Talpey
2018-12-13 14:18                                               ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-13 14:51                                                 ` Tom Talpey
2018-12-13 15:18                                                   ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-13 18:12                                                     ` Tom Talpey
2018-12-13 19:18                                                       ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-14 10:41                                             ` Jan Kara
2018-12-14 15:25                                               ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-12 21:56                                 ` John Hubbard
2018-12-12 22:04                                   ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-12 22:11                                     ` John Hubbard
2018-12-12 22:14                                       ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-12 22:17                                         ` John Hubbard
2018-12-12 21:46                             ` Dave Chinner
2018-12-12 21:59                               ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-13  0:51                                 ` Dave Chinner
2018-12-13  2:02                                   ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-13 15:56                                     ` Christopher Lameter
2018-12-13 16:02                                       ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-14  6:00                                     ` Dave Chinner
2018-12-14 15:13                                       ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-14  3:52                                   ` John Hubbard
2018-12-14  5:21                                     ` Dan Williams
2018-12-14  6:11                                       ` John Hubbard
2018-12-14 15:20                                         ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-14 19:38                                         ` Dan Williams
2018-12-14 19:48                                           ` Matthew Wilcox
2018-12-14 19:53                                             ` Dave Hansen
2018-12-14 20:03                                               ` Matthew Wilcox
2018-12-14 20:17                                                 ` Dan Williams
2018-12-14 20:29                                                   ` Matthew Wilcox
2018-12-15  0:41                                                 ` John Hubbard
2018-12-17  8:56                                           ` Jan Kara
2018-12-17 18:28                                             ` Dan Williams
2018-12-14 15:43                               ` Jan Kara
2018-12-16 21:58                                 ` Dave Chinner
2018-12-17 18:11                                   ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-17 18:34                                     ` Matthew Wilcox
2018-12-17 19:48                                       ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-17 19:51                                         ` Matthew Wilcox
2018-12-17 19:54                                           ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-17 19:59                                             ` Matthew Wilcox
2018-12-17 20:55                                               ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-17 21:03                                                 ` Matthew Wilcox
2018-12-17 21:15                                                   ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-18  1:09                                       ` Dave Chinner
2018-12-18  6:12                                       ` Darrick J. Wong
2018-12-18  9:30                                       ` Jan Kara
2018-12-18 23:29                                         ` John Hubbard
2018-12-19  2:07                                           ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-19 11:08                                             ` Jan Kara
2018-12-20 10:54                                               ` John Hubbard
2018-12-20 16:50                                                 ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-20 16:57                                                   ` Dan Williams
2018-12-20 16:49                                               ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-03  1:55                                               ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-03  3:27                                                 ` John Hubbard
2019-01-03 14:57                                                   ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-03  9:26                                                 ` Jan Kara
2019-01-03 14:44                                                   ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-11  2:59                                                     ` John Hubbard
2019-01-11  2:59                                                       ` John Hubbard
2019-01-11 16:51                                                       ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-11 16:51                                                         ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-12  1:04                                                         ` John Hubbard
2019-01-12  1:04                                                           ` John Hubbard
2019-01-12  2:02                                                           ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-12  2:02                                                             ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-12  2:38                                                             ` John Hubbard
2019-01-12  2:38                                                               ` John Hubbard
2019-01-12  2:46                                                               ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-12  2:46                                                                 ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-12  3:06                                                                 ` John Hubbard
2019-01-12  3:06                                                                   ` John Hubbard
2019-01-12  3:25                                                                   ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-12  3:25                                                                     ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-12 20:46                                                                     ` John Hubbard
2019-01-12 20:46                                                                       ` John Hubbard
2019-01-14 14:54                                                                   ` Jan Kara
2019-01-14 14:54                                                                     ` Jan Kara
2019-01-14 17:21                                                                     ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-14 17:21                                                                       ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-14 19:09                                                                       ` John Hubbard
2019-01-14 19:09                                                                         ` John Hubbard
2019-01-15  8:34                                                                         ` Jan Kara
2019-01-15  8:34                                                                           ` Jan Kara
2019-01-15 21:39                                                                           ` John Hubbard
2019-01-15 21:39                                                                             ` John Hubbard
2019-01-15  8:07                                                                       ` Jan Kara
2019-01-15  8:07                                                                         ` Jan Kara
2019-01-15 17:15                                                                         ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-15 17:15                                                                           ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-15 21:56                                                                           ` John Hubbard
2019-01-15 21:56                                                                             ` John Hubbard
2019-01-15 22:12                                                                             ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-15 22:12                                                                               ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-16  0:44                                                                               ` John Hubbard
2019-01-16  0:44                                                                                 ` John Hubbard
2019-01-16  1:56                                                                                 ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-16  1:56                                                                                   ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-16  2:01                                                                                   ` Dan Williams
2019-01-16  2:01                                                                                     ` Dan Williams
2019-01-16  2:23                                                                                     ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-16  2:23                                                                                       ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-16  4:34                                                                                       ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-16  4:34                                                                                         ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-16 14:50                                                                                         ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-16 14:50                                                                                           ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-16 22:51                                                                                           ` Dave Chinner [this message]
2019-01-16 22:51                                                                                             ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-16 11:38                                                                         ` Jan Kara
2019-01-16 11:38                                                                           ` Jan Kara
2019-01-16 13:08                                                                           ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-16 13:08                                                                             ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-17  5:42                                                                             ` John Hubbard
2019-01-17  5:42                                                                               ` John Hubbard
2019-01-17 15:21                                                                               ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-17 15:21                                                                                 ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-18  0:16                                                                                 ` Dave Chinner
2019-01-18  1:59                                                                                   ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-17  9:30                                                                             ` Jan Kara
2019-01-17  9:30                                                                               ` Jan Kara
2019-01-17 15:17                                                                               ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-17 15:17                                                                                 ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-22 15:24                                                                                 ` Jan Kara
2019-01-22 16:46                                                                                   ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-23 18:02                                                                                     ` Jan Kara
2019-01-23 19:04                                                                                       ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-29  0:22                                                                                         ` John Hubbard
2019-01-29  1:23                                                                                           ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-29  6:41                                                                                             ` John Hubbard
2019-01-29 10:12                                                                                               ` Jan Kara
2019-01-30  2:21                                                                                                 ` John Hubbard
2019-01-17  5:25                                                                         ` John Hubbard
2019-01-17  5:25                                                                           ` John Hubbard
2019-01-17  9:04                                                                           ` Jan Kara
2019-01-17  9:04                                                                             ` Jan Kara
2019-01-12  3:14                                                               ` Jerome Glisse
2019-01-12  3:14                                                                 ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-18 10:33                                   ` Jan Kara
2018-12-18 23:42                                     ` Dave Chinner
2018-12-19  3:03                                       ` Jason Gunthorpe
2018-12-19  5:26                                         ` Dan Williams
2018-12-19 11:19                                           ` Jan Kara
2018-12-19 10:28                                         ` Dave Chinner
2018-12-19 11:35                                           ` Jan Kara
2018-12-19 16:56                                             ` Jason Gunthorpe
2018-12-19 22:33                                             ` Dave Chinner
2018-12-20  9:07                                               ` Jan Kara
2018-12-20 16:54                                               ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-19 13:24                                       ` Jan Kara
2018-12-08  5:18                       ` Matthew Wilcox
2018-12-12 19:13                         ` John Hubbard
2018-12-08  7:16                       ` Dan Williams
2018-12-08 16:33                         ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-08 16:48                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2018-12-08 17:47                             ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-08 18:26                               ` Christoph Hellwig
2018-12-08 18:45                                 ` Jerome Glisse
2018-12-08 18:09                             ` Dan Williams
2018-12-08 18:12                               ` Christoph Hellwig
2018-12-11  6:18                               ` Dave Chinner
2018-12-05  5:52             ` Dan Williams
2018-12-05 11:16       ` Jan Kara
2018-12-04  0:17 ` [PATCH 2/2] infiniband/mm: convert put_page() to put_user_page*() john.hubbard
2018-12-04 17:10 ` [PATCH 0/2] put_user_page*(): start converting the call sites David Laight
2018-12-05  1:05   ` John Hubbard
2018-12-05 14:08     ` David Laight
2018-12-28  8:37       ` Pavel Machek
2019-02-08  7:56 [PATCH 0/2] mm: put_user_page() call site conversion first john.hubbard
2019-02-08  7:56 ` [PATCH 1/2] mm: introduce put_user_page*(), placeholder versions john.hubbard
2019-02-08 10:32   ` Mike Rapoport
2019-02-08 20:44     ` John Hubbard

Reply instructions:

You may reply publically to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=20190116225126.GS4205@dastard \
    --to=david@fromorbit.com \
    --cc=akpm@linux-foundation.org \
    --cc=benve@cisco.com \
    --cc=cl@linux.com \
    --cc=dan.j.williams@intel.com \
    --cc=dennis.dalessandro@intel.com \
    --cc=dledford@redhat.com \
    --cc=hch@infradead.org \
    --cc=jack@suse.cz \
    --cc=jgg@ziepe.ca \
    --cc=jglisse@redhat.com \
    --cc=jhubbard@nvidia.com \
    --cc=john.hubbard@gmail.com \
    --cc=linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-mm@kvack.org \
    --cc=mhocko@kernel.org \
    --cc=mike.marciniszyn@intel.com \
    --cc=rcampbell@nvidia.com \
    --cc=tom@talpey.com \
    --cc=viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk \
    --cc=willy@infradead.org \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link

Linux-Fsdevel Archive on lore.kernel.org

Archives are clonable:
	git clone --mirror https://lore.kernel.org/linux-fsdevel/0 linux-fsdevel/git/0.git

	# If you have public-inbox 1.1+ installed, you may
	# initialize and index your mirror using the following commands:
	public-inbox-init -V2 linux-fsdevel linux-fsdevel/ https://lore.kernel.org/linux-fsdevel \
		linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org linux-fsdevel@archiver.kernel.org
	public-inbox-index linux-fsdevel


Newsgroup available over NNTP:
	nntp://nntp.lore.kernel.org/org.kernel.vger.linux-fsdevel


AGPL code for this site: git clone https://public-inbox.org/ public-inbox